<p>Hi,
I need some help in making recommendations for my son's course selection next year. I know the usual mantra that kids should select the most difficult courses their school offers, but here's the situation. This year, as a sophomore, my son is taking AP Human Geography. This is a required course for all sophomores. His teacher overloads them with a lot of projects and papers and does little to help them with the big picture. This course is taking up probably 2/3 of my son's time. He got an A (just barely) first semester, despite getting Cs on many of the exams. He is not alone: other smart kids have trouble with these tests, as well. But he is a slooow reader; he's much more interested in science and math.<br>
So, the issue is whether he should take AP US History next year. In his school, nearly 3/4 of the kids do take this class. The counselors have warned that if kids sign up (now) for AP and decide they don't want to take it once the year starts, it is unlikely they will find room in a non-AP US History class to switch into. Apparently, one teacher told the kids that no one needs to take AP US History unless they want to be an historian (!); she seemed to do her best to dissuade the students from signing up.<br>
So, will it look bad for college admissions if he takes regular history? He is accelerated in math and will be taking AP Calculus AB and, hopefully AP Computer Science next year. It just seems to me that the APUSH is so ubiquitous on competitive student transcripts that it might look bad if he skipped it. For the record, my son wants to take the APUSH, but I don't think he realizes quite how much work it is. He is not a kid who can study all night long. He poops out by 9 pm. Also, my primary concern is that this course will so dominate his time that he will not have the time to devote to the courses he is truly interested in. While he has a 4.0, I feel like he gives short shrift to his other classes. I don't know how much work the AP Computer Sci will be, but since this is the area he thinks he wants to pursue, I would like him to have enough time to spend on it.
Any thoughts would be appreciated. The school counselor seems to always suggest the less rigorous route, so I'm sure she would just say to go non-AP. While my son is not a HYPS-type candidate, he is a smart kid and I don't want to cut off opportunities.
Any personal insights/experience would be much appreciated. Thanks</p>
<p>If he will be taking calculus as a junior (two years ahead of the normal sequence, presumably getting A grades in previous math courses), shouldn’t he be in AP Calculus BC rather than AB? AB (approximately one semester of university-level calculus over a year) may be too slow paced for an excellent at math student, unless it is enriched with extra theory or something like that.</p>
<p>Regarding AP US history versus non-AP US history, does your son have any friends in either course to let him know how much the workload is, and how worthwhile the AP version is in terms of learning more material? Do the universities that he is interested in give useful subject credit for the AP US history test?</p>
<p>I’m a senior now, but i figured I could help since, well, i was a junior last year.
My course load was:
AP English 3 (alot harder than 2EXP but not a problem if you like english A’s all year here 
Now in AP English 4 which is alot easier if you have AP 3 under your belt)
Pre-Cal (not a math genius here)
AP environmental Science (took HP Chem as a soph and i’m in AP Bio now)
AP US History (after taking AP Euro sophomore I realized how easy it was --AUSH is alot harder–and yet I got a better grade in APUSH, if he’s already on the AP History track, might as well stay on it)
Creative Writing-- really great elective if you like writing. I’m in Film as Lit now</p>
<p>So far as the calculus thing, at my school I had some friends be in Calculus Junior year, its not too uncommon, though BC is very hard so take into consideration what the rest of his classes are, AB is still pretty advanced calculus so theres no shame in taking that.</p>
<p>So far as AP Comp Sci… I have friends who think its easy as pie (or pi if your of the math persuasion =P ) and some other’s who thought it was very hard and had to drop out after getting a D. It’s really a personal thing, if you enjoy it and are used to AP work, it should be fine. Just don’t slack off in the beginning, get that firm foundation and its good.</p>
<p>Hi ucbalumnus,
In my son’s school, students are required to take AP Calc AB before BC. I thought that was weird, but that’s the deal. So, he will have two years of Calculus in high school. He has done very well in math thusfar. He could ask kids in his math class, I suppose, about the AP US history as most are a year older. I assume that the better teachers would be teaching the AP course, but I think that we would all survive if he learned some basic US history-even if it were less a course than the AP one (you can tell where my subject preferences are, I’m guessing 
) I really doubt that my son would score well enough on the AP exam to get credit. But you have a point: if he could get a college distribution course out of the way, it would be nice. We’ll see if that is likely after he takes the AP Human geog course in May. Unfortunately, he has to sign up for courses now. A couple of his friends (who are frankly quite average students) have said that they heard the APUSH is a lot of work- even more than the Human geo this year. It is not that I want my son to shy away from challenges. This year has been made so miserable because of that one course, that I hesitate to have him repeat the experience- especially since he will also need to be studying for the SAT.</p>
<p>bookworm522, thanks for your perspective. How much time would you say you spent per night on the APUSH? My son is not a great reader/writer so this course presents a challenge on numerous levels. He will also be taking a language arts course (saving AP LA for senior year) and physics and orchestra. While I think the physics will be easy for him, he will be taking alot of problem-solving type courses. It might be nice to break that up with something that doesn’t involve dbqs, but more of, let’s face it, spit-back of basic material…</p>
<p>IMO it would not look bad. The best way to set your mind at ease, I think, is to talk with the hs GC. Make sure that he will be taking a schedule for which the GC can check off (I forget the exact wording on the form) “taking most rigorous schedule available.”</p>
<p>Taking the “most rigorous” does not have to mean taking every AP available. When my S was in hs, the History/Govt teacher loved him… but did NOT recommend that he take APGovt or even APUSH - didn’t like the way they were taught and just didn’t feel they were right for him.</p>
<p>My S took a lot of Honors, a few APs, was a Science/Math type. Admitted to a top U, graduated in EE, now launched in his Engineering career.</p>
<p>It really depended on the night for APUSH, i wasn’t exactly a model student though, I got a B, but the people who got A’s spent about an 30min-hour a night on it, maybe more before a test. I managed to get a 4 on the AP though. but yea, it really depends on the night and how devoted you are to the class. And the teacher, part of the reason i liked it better than euro even though it was harder is because i had a great teacher.</p>
<p>It really depends on the course and teacher. My D2012 is spending 10~15 hrs /wk on APUSH. But it is her favorite class, because of the excellent teacher and high level of class discussions.</p>
<p>Your S should talk to kids a year ahead who are currently in the classes he is considering taking, and ask them how much time they spend and what they think of the teachers. Then he should think about his priorities and how me might budget out his time. Also think about what he could dial back in terms of extracurriculars (e.g., freshman year my D played in 5 orchestras, this year she’s only in 2, and has stepped down as section leader). If he’s a math-y type kid, he might want to to keep some time available to engage in math- or CS-related extracurriculars. If he does something interesting in there, that might carry more weight on applications to CS programs than yet-another AP class in an unrelated subject.</p>
<p>My son is currently a junior taking APUSH. He’s also more of a math/science kid, and he has a limited attention span for history. My advice is to find out if the teacher(s) for the class adhere to the typical AP curriculum, or if loads of extra projects and papers are also expected. If the teacher sticks to the curriculum, the class should not be a problem for your son if he is doing well in his current history class. </p>
<p>My son spends about two hours per chapter reading the “Inventing America” textbook. His teacher has paced the class at the rate of about two chapters per week. He usually spends an additional two hours a night for study time leading up to a test - about four hours of studying for each test. The class requires a fairly significant amount of memorization - dates and names and such. As long as your son keeps up with the reading, he should be fine. My son also felt that in order to have the most rigorous schedule, he really needed to take APUSH, and frankly, the regular US History would probably not have been challenging enough for him.</p>
<p>I would be careful about using AP Human Geography as any kind of predictor for other AP courses. My IB Diploma daughter has taken 9 AP’s and that was her least favorite course of her whole high school experience. She says the book was poorly written, the subject matter is stupid and it just not a good course. She absolutely loved APUSH, made a 5 on the AP exam and an 800 on the SAT ll. The wonderful teacher composes songs about American History and the kids love his class.</p>
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<p>Hmmm, another one of those schools that doesn’t have much confidence in the students who are best at math… when I went to high school, students went directly from precalculus to a one year BC course (then the only calculus offered, though now AB is offered as an option). Some other schools offer a choice of AB or BC after precalculus, but only allow students to choose BC if they got an A grade in precalculus.</p>
<p>If it is mandatory at your school to do calculus on a two year plan, then there is not much choice if he does not want to go to a community college for calculus. But make sure that he knows that real college and university level math courses will move at about twice the pace as these high school courses, so that he won’t be surprised when he enters college or university and takes math courses.</p>
<p>Back to US history – he should definitely ask other students (who are actually in the course or have taken the course, as opposed to second hand “heard it was a lot of work”) how much work the regular and AP versions are, and how they compare to the AP Human Geography course in amount of work.</p>
<p>Yea, our teacher had a GREAT personality and we did a lot of discussions/debates/activities. so even though history is really a bland topic for me, the teacher made all the difference for me.</p>
<p>It’s good to get some insights on these CC threads. But once educated, try to do some intensive investigations with the families in your high school. These things vary greatly from school to school.</p>
<p>The decision will also depend a lot on the student. We have two very bright, disorganized kids. The older got overwhelmed with too many tough IB classes, never asked for help… and after that high school and college didn’t go so well. The other was energized by the IB challenge and became a star student going on to great things in college. In retrospect, I should have caught the clues that the older one’s performance was trending down a bit in 9th/10th grade. (The younger one trended up, becoming more organized and motivated than in earlier years.)</p>
<p>Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. It does help me to hear about these other experiences.
jmmom, my son most likely is looking to apply to an engineering school, so your son’s experience was reassuring. mihcal, I agree with what you suggested. Right now my son has very few extracurriculars and I couldn’t imagine adding much to his current schedule. But if he had a lighter writing/reading course load, he would certainly have more time to pursue that. 10-15 hours per week on one course sounds like a lot. But, then, I think my son is certainly putting 10 hours per week into the APHG. Gourmetmom, you hit the nail on the head with your comment regarding how the course is taught. My son gets reading guides to fill out for each chapter in APHG. They are single-spaced 6-page deals and are not fill-in-the-blank kind of questions. They can take him 6 hours to complete. All the kids end up using a “hunt and peck” approach to finding the answers. Then, later, they try to go back and read the whole chapter. There are many projects and thesis papers, as well. I have said that, if the teacher would just leave them alone to read the chapter and study, they would probably all do better on the test. As it is, he assigns so much work that they don’t have time to actually learn the pertinent material. The kids I have spoken to say that the reading guides don’t even help on the tests (whether or not this is true, I don’t know). Moreover, your comment was very helpful. My son says APHG is horrible because it includes every part of the world at any time in history. A bunch of loose facts. I would presume that at least US history, because it will proceed chronologically, will have more structure to grab hold of. bookworm522, a B in an AP class is nothing to be ashamed of- especially when you got a 4 on the exam. 30 minutes a night would be fine, but I don’t think that is what we are looking at here. ucbalumnus, the fact that calculus takes two years is really quite the least of our complaints with the our public school. He may have to take an online course in PE just so that he can continue in orchestra. That should be interesting…</p>
<p>My kid is a sophomore in the IB sequence, and all sophomores at our HS are "expected " to take APUSH. They do not have to, but most of them do.
APUSH is one of 6 AP courses he has either taken or is taking this year. He is good across the spectrum - math, science type, but also a great writer and speedy reader. Having said that, his APUSH as well as AP BIO classes are the most time consuming this year. They are not the most difficult, just time consuming. For APUSH chapter outlines go usually well past 50 pages.</p>
<p>As to answer your question whether it will be OK if he skips it - I think it depends on what his college aspirations are. If he wants to be competitive for the Ivies or the top 10, he needs it.
Mind you I am not saying he won’t get in without it, but I think his chances will be higher if he does have it.</p>
<p>Every school and every teacher is different. Have your son find out what it is like at his school from older peers, as others suggested. But remember, AP courses are supposed to be college level, so the work will always be there.
Good Luck :)</p>
<p>Yes, coloradomom. It definitely depends on the particular school and teacher. My older child (now 2 years post graduation from college) went to a different high school, didn’t work half as hard as my son. But she was definitely more talented at writing, skimming, and finding shortcuts. The AP history courses weren’t even a blip on my radar with her. I don’t really remember seeing her do much homework at all. I am seeing my son struggle more this year and am trying to find out from others if their kids are having a similar experience with this course. It does seem so. But I also worry that this type of course really is too challenging for him and he might do better to dial down the course load. He does seem to manage organization-wise (gets work in on time), but I look at all those loose papers in the flap of his binder and can’t imagine how he will fare in college. Not that my nagging seems to make much difference!</p>
<p>Kelowna, I don’t think we’re talking Ivies or top 10 here. Although, maybe Cornell with a legacy leg-up? But I appreciate your candor regarding whether or not skipping this course would affect his chances at a competitive school. Your comment that APUSH is not the hardest, but is the most time consuming course underscores what I’m worried about. My son has gotten interested in programming electronics. I feel awful when, on a weekend, I have to tell him to quit experimenting and go read the damn history book. A 50 page chapter outline? How long is the chapter???</p>
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<p>Online PE? Does it consist of watching Jack LaLanne videos and doing the exercises shown, with fitness tests at the beginning and end to see if he improved?</p>
<p>The PE course is given through Brigham Young University online. I haven’t checked it out yet, but am fairly certain there is no actual assessment of student’s physical fitness. i think they read about fitness and keep a fitness diary. As in: I ran for twenty minutes today. Yes. Really. And we will have to pay several hundred dollars for the privilege. And if my son wanted to double up on science courses instead of taking gym, he would not graduate. He needs three semesters of gym to graduate high school.</p>
<p>Our school requires 2 full years of PE, and does accept PE classes taken online or through the community college.</p>
<p>My D2012 has to do 3 semesters outside of the regular schedule in order to make room for Orchestra. She has taken online in Health (1 semester, taken summer after freshman year), Govt (1 semester, taken summer after sophomore year), and will take Econ (1 semester) this summer. </p>
<p>In my opinion, your son is better off developing a passion for programming electronics than grinding through an intense history course that doesn’t hold his interest. Perhaps your school or community offers a robotics club? If not, perhaps your son could start one?</p>