Junior Year Course Selection

Parents Forum
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<p>Didn't want to hijack the Senior Year thread!</p>

<p>My Sophomore S just brought home his proposed Junior Year Schedule:</p>

<p>Advanced Algebra/Trig
AP "Problems of Democracy" -- this is what the school district calls a year long course that combines AP U.S. Govt. and AP Economics
AP European History
AP English (American Lit)
Spanish III
Chemistry</p>

<p>My first reaction was Acckk! He's a solid B/B+ student. He currently taking AP U.S. History, his first AP course. He loves it, but struggled at first. Now looks like he'll pull out a B in the course. While I'm proud of him for wanting to challenge himself with so many AP courses, I'm also concerned about overload. He doesn't have a ton of EC's, but he stays busy and is also a member of our town's Volunteer Fire Department. Any advice? Should I steer him to a path that is challenging but not quite so heavily loaded -- I would probably suggest dropping either AP English or AP Euro and take the ordinary College Prep courses in those subjects. Or should I just let him dive in? </p>

<p>My DW is actually meeting with his GC next week to discuss this, but I thought I would throw it out to the group. </p>

<p>Thanks for any feedback.</p>

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<p>In many ways, junior year is make or break for a college-bound student. It produces the transcript that will be most heavily scrutinized by adcoms, and involves teachers who are most likely to be asked to write recs by the student.
For a good student, the course selection seems reasonable. Advanced Algebra/Trig is standard, as is Spanish III. Is Chemistry Honors or CP? Again, it seems a standard course for a junior. How much of a workload will depend very much on the AP-European history class. AP-Euro can appeal to students with a strong interest in the humanities and social sciences as it introduces them to many important events and issues that will resonate with what they already learned in elementary school. But it covers a lot of space and time, and can be frustrating to some students who would like greater depth. It can also vary enormously in degree of difficulty, depending on the teacher. If you remember Carolyn's D's experience, she had a teacher who thought nothing of assigning 100 pages of reading per night!
In sophomore year, my S had a course that had a different title but similar goals. It really taught him how to write research papers in a way his AP courses did not, and to participate in class discussions. So the AP "Problems of Democracy" may turn out to be a truly enjoyable class.
One question to ask if your S is concerned about the workload is "what would replace either AP "Problems of Democracy" or AP Euro and still make for a rigorous curriculum?"</p>

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<p>What does your son love about AP US History? I ask because I have a junior son, who last year had AP US and AP Economics. This year, and we are on 4x4 block, he had AP Euro and AP English in the fall. (he also had other AP's but these are the ones your son is taking). Son enjoyed AP Euro more than AP US but his personal interest lies in that time period of history. It is a very expansive class as Marite has pointed out and not as detailed as US. His econ was fine for him, but he is advanced in math but I could see where some students might struggle with the math and formulas in AP Econ.</p>

<p>Again, repeating what Marite has said, what is the AP Euro teacher's reputaton for the class? And is the chem honors? Has he had any chem before? I ask for another reason. Son had Honors chem at another high school before we left with the AP Chem teacher. And she was tough, really tough. He now has AP Chem at his new high school. His honors chem class was twice as hard as his AP CHem now. His older brother took the AP Chem class from the previous school and struggled. He has taken Chem in college now and he says the same thing, his college class was much, much easier than that particular teacher. And he is a science major! Its not the intro to chem class, its the pre-med, engineering one.</p>

<p>Have your son find out from other students who are in the classes NOW what is going on and IF the same teacher is teaching it next year. I think the AP English, spanish 3, alg/trig, chem and depending on the teacher EITHER AP Euro or AP "problems of Democracy". Keep in mind that last class is actually 2 AP courses combined into 1.</p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>My sophomore son is in the middle of the course selection process as well. We are on a block schedule, and AP courses are given for one hour and a half block every day all year. He was at the top of his Honors History class (finished first semester) and was recommended and wants to take AP History. He is doing fine in Honors English (87 first term), but is apprehensive about taking AP English next year. He seems to enjoy the current class, but is intimidated by all of the smart, high-achieving girls in the class. I haven't talked to the teacher yet, so I don't know her opinion. Based on my older son's experience, he will definitely learn more in the AP class (he didn't find the honors class very challenging and was relieved to taking it. They didn't read any novels all year, just short stories and poems). I don't want to overwhelm him, but he is one of those boys that will rise to the level expected of him and no higher. He is in college prep math and honors science, and will most likely continue at those levels although he could move up in math as he has a solid A in the class. He is a B+/A- student who grades have improved from freshman year. Any thoughts? He is interested in history in college, although he is unsure what he would want to do. Seems to want to go to a large out-of-state state university, although I have no clue why. Since my husband picked his first college (he has two degrees) based on proximity to skiing, reasons seem as good as any.</p>

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<p>Massmom:</p>

<p>If your son is getting 87 in his Honors History class, he should definitely take AP History. In our hs, students who score 80 or above are allowed in. It has some drawback, but it helps students who "rise to the level expected" of them.
It will certainly help his application for college if he wishes to major in history or another branch of the social sciences.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the prompt input</p>

<p>Marite -- I'll try to have S get a feel for the quality of the AP Euro teacher from some students. Unfortunately he's somewhat shy, so this will NOT be task he will appreciate. But he'll do it if I push :) I don't really have any problems at all with Chemistry and Spanish III. Chemistry is standard CP. The school doesn't offer honors chem (if they did, he'd snap it up as he loves this subject), but they do have an AP class that he wants to take Senior year. Advanced Algebra/Trig makes me nervous only because he struggled mightily with math in Middle School. He took sort of a "lateral" step and started HS in a class one rung below where most of the CP students started (too long of a story for here). He's made a GREAT comeback in math, however, and is now an A student. But I worry. The way his school tracks, he has to take the advanced algebra/trig course rather than the standard CP Algebra/Trig course to get into calculus next year. So chem, algebra and spanish are pretty much written in stone. Good question on the "replacement" issue. Unfortunately, "POD" is required, so the replacement to AP POD would be regular POD. And since POD is a graduation requirement for everyone, the non-AP classes are large and don't have a good rep (primarily busy work). AP Euro could be replaced with a science elective like Advanced Biology (not AP, but a CP second year course in biology). </p>

<p>kwk -- My S is basically an amateur history geek. He's always been interested in history, mainly U.S. history, and has read a lot of non-fiction in this area even before the class. So I think it's just a matter of having a class in a subject that he likes that talks about trends, analysis, etc. rather than having to memorize "the battle of xxx was in April of 186_" . As noted above, I don't think there is any way around AP POD, so if anything gets changed, AP Euro is looking like the prime suspect. </p>

<p>One thing that adds to my concern is that the school doesn't weight for AP or Honors, so if he takes a rigorous course load and struggles, his GPA will take a hit. I know, I know -- many colleges take all that into account, etc. -- but it's still a concern. </p>

<p>Thanks again for the feedback!</p>

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<p>Massmom, our sons sound very similar. I was actually very surprised when S signed up for AP English, because English is clearly a subject he loathes (though he does fairly well). His comment was that even though he'll probably hate all the writing, at least they should have better (i.e. more interesting) reading assignments.</p>

<p>I would also encourage your S to take the AP History course. My S was staggered a bit by the AP US History workload, though I tried to prepare him, and has spent most of the year trying to raise his low C to a B -- but it was great for him, and I've been proud of how he rose to the challenge.</p>

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<p>I concur with katwkittens.</p>

<p>In some respects, it DOES really depend on the teachers. Our AP Euro class IS a lot of reading, but the teacher is one of the most popular in the district, so the kids gravitate to the class anyway, even though there is no grade inflation. On the other hand, our schools have had difficulty obtaining science teachers, and a couple of AP/honors science teachers leave much to be desired....so, Chem can be problematic if not explained well. Chem and Physics are much more conceptual science, and even at the CP level, can be significantly harder Frosh/Soph general science for many kids.</p>

<p>AP Lit can also be a lot of reading, but its the interpretation that is more difficult. </p>

<p>Idercohi: I would not recommend this schedule for a B/B+ student. Jr is the one year that a kid can't afford any C's, but a few A's would look real nice. Can your S take honors Lit instead (assuming less work)? Or, how about the Govt/Econ sequence as a senior (typically taken as a senior in Calif)?</p>

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<p>Oops -- duplicate post.</p>

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<p>bluebayou -- thanks. There is no honors lit, but there is CP lit as compared to the "regular" lit for those who are just trying to complete their english requirements. That's one of the things my DW will be talking to the GC about, how much of a difference in the classes and how colleges look at it. I've never really thought of him deferring AP POD until next year -- it's just always assumed that people take POD (AP or regular) it in their Junior Year as the 3rd course in the required track -- but I don't think it's a rule or anything. I'll have to pursue that.</p>

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<p>why can't he take AP Euro as a senior? (If you mentioned the reason already, I missed it in all of the discussion.) What Social Studies would he take as a senior if he takes the proposed schedule as a junior?</p>

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<p>great suggestion, MoT.</p>

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<p>Mother of Two -- Yes, that is a good suggestion. I think I mentioned earlier that he could take a science elective. If he does take AP Euro now, there are actually several options for his Senior Year -- APs in Comparative Govt, Psychology, and Human Geography. Non-APs in Civil War and Vietnam, Psych, World Religions, African American History, Anthro, and Criminal Justice Systems. Many of these are dependent on enough enrollment, so it's hard to say for sure what would be available.</p>

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<p>Iderochi, he needs to find out how the courses are taught at his school. DD's experience has been that AP Gov/Econ has been easy, but she is a senior with APUSH and APEuro under her belt. Also Gov/econ is a state requirement, so the one teacher teaches all the courses, and the AP is only slightly "beefed up" with the papers, I 'm not at all sure that the Econ part is taught for the APtest.</p>

<p>She took APUSH and AP Bio as a junior, but actually took 4 AP exams - Honors Chem II sits for the chemistry test, with not so good results, Honors American Literature sits for the AP English Language, with good results, it is a grammar and write an essay test - a cross between SATII writing and ACT English.
Her AP teachers have not given a lot of outside reading, which I think makes the difference - if they stick pretty much to the AP plan and the text, it is not so hard. The sticker is learning to write the essays, that's what trips kids up at her school. If your child struggled in APUSH with the essays, he will find that to be easier, because it is more familiar now. AP Euro is more of a survey (covers an extra 200 years ;)), and APUSH has more details</p>

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<p>In next few weeks, my son will be deciding his junior year schedule. Currently as a sophomore, he is taking AP BC Calc, AP Chemistry, AP European History, Spanish II, English and Honors Physics. Next year, he is looking to take AP US history, AP Physics, Linear and Vector Algebra, Junior English, Spanish III and school graduation requirements towards a course in Philosophy and another course in Music. I think his current 10th grade course load is way too tough than the 11th grade schedule.</p>

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<p>Iderochi:</p>

<p>I concur that AP-Euro can be taken in senior year. Another thought is that your S does not have to take AP-Calc if he is concerned about his math performance. My own older S tok four years of math but not AP-Calc. That was enough to get him accepted into several most selective colleges as a prospective history major.</p>

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<p>I guess I'm a bit of a contrarian - while it is important to colleges to see a solid Junior year, it's also important to make sure that the junior year schedule is going to give the student an honest chance at getting the BEST grades possible. I guess the question I would ask Iderochi is whether she believes her son is going to at least MAINTAIN his unweighted B/B+ GPA with that course schedule --- or would he be better served taking one less AP class junior year and maintaining his current unweighted GPA or even nudging it up to a solid unweighted A average?</p>

<p>A few other things to consider: How are AP Classes taught at his school and who teaches them? What level of colleges do you realistically see your son aiming at? Top 20 private schools? Top 100 schools? State schools? How have other kids with slightly less demanding junior year schedules fared in college admissions at your son's high school in the past? How intensive are his EC committments and will he realistically have to cut back on them to handle that schedule? If he doesn't take this full complement of AP classes next year, can he take them - or others - senior year?</p>

<p>Finally - and most importantly - how does your son handle academic stress? Is he a self-starter or do you have to nudge him along at times? Is he mature enough to handle this level of work? Does he WANT to handle this level of work? </p>

<p>Keep in mind that the average number of AP classes taken by those admitted to STANFORD is 5. My daughter's school limits the number of AP classes to just two a year unless a child has special permission - and they send kids to the Ivies and the UC's and other top schools each year. Taking one less AP class next year and keeping his grades up MAY serve your son better than taking so many and seeing a drop in his grades or driving him crazy in the process.</p>

<p>As Marite mentioned, my daughter's AP Euro teacher in sophomore year was incredibly demanding - she really did have 100+ pages of reading each night (SIX textbooks!), tests nearly every day, required lunch time meetings nearly every day, required after school sessions 5 days a week, etc. My daughter ended up with an A in the class and a "5" on the AP test --- but all of her other grades slipped as a direct result of the time the class took and she dropped out of most of her extracurriculars just to keep up. I think the way this teacher taught the class is probably an exception to the rule but in any case AP Euro is one of the most difficult AP tests because there is simply so much information to learn and memorize. </p>

<p>This year, (junior year) she is not taking ANY AP classes. She opted to take honors US instead of AP US and is in honors English. She has done much better this year --- she is still challenged and her grades are back up. Unfortunately, because they slipped so much last year she will never had the GPA she might have had if she hadn't taken that AP Euro class in tenth grade. </p>

<p>Next year (senior year), she will be taking AP English, AP Government, AP French and Honors Asian Studies (with the AP Euro teacher who she does love), as well as trig/stats, regular economics, and religion. I think that is a suitable senior year course schedule for her and I think she will be ready for it. I also have a good handle on who will be teaching these classes and the level of effort they will require. </p>

<p>It is, of course, too early to say how my daughter's choices are going to play out in college admissions but I think 4 AP classes plus honors classes will be fine for the colleges she is looking at. She is not aiming at top 30 colleges or universities but at smaller LAC's that will (hopefully) look at her application as more than just numbers and a GPA. She will have excellent recommendations from her teachers and her guidance counselor. I think she will do just fine, but I do wish that someone had sat me down and made me think about the consequences of pushing her into a schedule last year that she was not yet ready for. </p>

<p>I have learned from her experience, My son, who will be a sophomore next year, will not be taking AP Euro as a sophomore. If he wants to, he can take it senior year after APUSH, which I personally think is a better scheduling for AP Euro. Instead, he will be taking several honors classes next year. In Junior year, I expect that he will be taking only two AP classes, maybe three if he really pushes for it. His senior year schedule will be much like my daughters (but with AP calculus instead of an AP language class). I think he will do just fine in college admissions and he probably will be aiming at more competitive colleges/universities than my daughter. </p>

<p>In short, I'm not absolutely convinced that the current mania for full AP schedules in junior year (and in many cases sophomore year!) is necessary --- some kids really are served best by taking a more realistic schedule with just a few AP's in junior year and then more AP's in senior year. Just my two cents and, again, I am a contrarian on this issue.</p>

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<p>fwiw: what I've read indicates that AP Euro is considered the 'hardest' of the non-math/science APs, so adcoms love to see it on the transcript. But, taking senior year s/b just as good.</p>

<p>marite: advanced alg/trig as a jr leads to Pre-Calc senior year, at least in our district.</p>

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<p>Marite - My son will be taking AP History next year - He got a 94 in the Honors history class, one of the highest grades. It is the English he is not sure about, will see what the teacher thinks - that is the course he got an 87 in first term. We have soph. Eng and Math 3 of 4 terms. My older son took two AP sciences senior year - basically to learn something and challenge himself. I think that we lose track of perhaps the most important reasons to take challenging coursework in high school - to learn more and prepare better, not just application wise, but skills-wise for college work.</p>

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<p>Carolyn: </p>

<p>I don't think it is contrarian at all. Six solids is a lot of hw, and could result in less EC time.</p>