Hi, incoming freshman pre-admit to Ross. Do many BBAs transfer out of U-M?

I agree wayneandgarth. I would add Georgetown to the NYC IB list. I was very surprised to see Chicago, UT-Austin and Cal in the top 10 for IB. Chicago, McCoombs and Haas are excellent, but not known for Wall Street recruitment.

“I’m guessing the people in that group were waitlisted at those schools and then committed when they were offered a spot - so they did not technically transfer from Michigan. Transferring out of Michigan is pretty rare, I think the number of freshmen returning for a 2nd year is at around 97%.” @yikesyikesyikes

Out of 7,000 freshmen, that means a few hundred rising sophomores leave each year? Business students seem prestige conscious, so when I saw a few incoming pre-Ross in facebook groups ended up at private colleges, I wondered how common it is for Ross freshmen to transfer out the summer after 1st year. And if some do, why? Google searches showed a couple Ross freshmen in recent years asking for advice about transferring to Penn and U of Chicago.

@Alexandre: Georgetown is already included in both the 2014 survey list & again in the 2018 survey list.

I’m confused. Please select one of the following:

  1. You are asking about HS grads who were accepted as pre-admits to Ross, but chose a different college to which they were accepted. These students never attend University of Michigan, even though they were accepted there.
  2. You are asking about students who were accepted as pre-admits to Ross, attended the University of Michigan for freshman year, then transferred out of the University of Michigan to attend another school.

@brantly I’m asking both. Both why those rising freshmen bolted for Brown, Cornell and Duke over Ross. And I wondered if many matriculated students transfer as rising sophomores (so just before Ross begins) for similar reasons. I’m curious what these students who do this don’t like about Ross/Michigan. I thought Ross had a private school feel within a large university, but maybe that’s not accurate.

@hannahw18
There is no school in the country in which 100% of those admitted will matriculate. Thirty-two percent of students accepted to Princeton in 2016 went elsewhere. Fifty percent of students accepted to Duke turned it down. When people have choices, some choose A, some choose B. Maybe they got better financial aid at another school. Maybe the other school is closer to their home. Maybe they decided they don’t really want business. Maybe they prefer the weather in Durham over that in Ann Arbor. For as many students who choose Duke over Ross, there is probably the same number that choose Ross over Duke.

The percent of students accepted who end up matriculating is called the yield. Here are the 2016 yields of some highly selective schools:
Stanford: 82%
Harvard: 79%
MIT: 74%
Yale: 69%
Princeton: 68%
Columbia: 62%
Brown: 56%
Duke:50%

As for Ross pre-admits transferring after freshman year, do you have numbers? I’ve never seen any. Regardless, I don’t doubt it happens. If there are pre-admits who transfer after freshman year – before they even begin Ross – it certainly can’t be because of Ross.

You are over-thinking this.You appear to think that if just one or two people chose a different path, that there must be something “wrong” with Ross that you are not seeing, when the real answer is: Different strokes for different folks.

Brantly Parchment isn’t entirely scientific nor Ross specific but it suggests that 77% of those accepted at both Michigan and Duke…choose Duke. As you say different strokes for different folks in this case by a 3.3 to 1 ratio.

And your point is … what exactly? Are you worried about something?

^point being that the OPs concerns are well founded based on the majority of the movement being away from Ross. Your suggestion that it is a random coin flip is contradicted by both the OPs observations and the statistics. I won’t speculate on whether it is academic reputation, cost, weather etc as I have no horse in the game…but I also think it wrong to dismiss the OPs concern as different strokes when it appears to be one directional.

Pretty sure Parchment is self-reported. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Her/his other data is from people on a Facebook group.

What other people are doing has no bearing on one’s own choice. All of the colleges the OP mentioned have better financial aid for students who would be OOS at UMich.

I’m not sure about the number that transfer out of Michigan.

However 3% of students drop Ross after spending at least a semester there. The article below gives insight about what turns them off about the program.

https://www.michigandaily.com/section/statement/rethinking-ross-unglamorous-realities-business-school-education

Brantly you are correct Parchment is self reported which is why I reference it as “hardly scientific”. However in each and every case of the 8 schools you reference the parchment numbers suggest a 77-90 percent preference away from Michigan. Again not scientific but that type of consistent pattern of results suggest either a popular preference for the 8 schools you note versus Michigan or an amazing lack of self reporting on the part of Michigan fans. The likely reality is that while a great school the reputation of UM is a notch below the 8 you list. The OP wants to know why his experience is happening. Comparative reputation is a likely factor.

It’s all hair-splitting. Not even worth the time to think about. If the OP has a choice between Ross and Duke, he/she should make the choice that’s best for him/her individually.

Again, these decisions are NOT made by strength of program or “reputation” alone. That factor is not isolated. As I said, financial decisions weigh greatly. If a student were to get $20k in need-based aid at Brown or Duke, and nothing at UMich (because the student is OOS for Michigan), Brown or Duke would be the right choice – especially for a student who desires to be a business expert. That’s an $80k savings. Dumb business decision to go to UMich.

@paymonpaymon Interesting article. 3% as in ~ 15 sophomores or 3% of sophomores & juniors (~ 30)? Could they be dropping because they’re in over their head academically? Or transferring out of UMich?

I was not a business major, but years ago I did go to U of M. I can certainly understand why some people may transfer out. It is cold in Ann Arbor, it is often raining or snowing. My first year at UM, it rained 40 days in a row that Fall. For someone like me, coming from a warmer 4-season climate, it was a shock. It is also large. Navigating things like class selection requires innovation and self-reliance. For some people who do not stumble into a friend group, it can be isolating. I actually took a whole year off in the middle of my undergrad to go abroad (just to see some sunshine!) All these factors have nothing to do with the academics. And to even things out, I had a friend from the 'burbs of Detroit who transferred from Harvard to UM during my time there. He couldn’t stand Harvard for some reason.

As for Parchment, I would urge you not to give much credence to it. As they say, when modeling data, Garbage in yields garbage out. Because Parchment has a self-selecting biased sample, one cannot draw any conclusions from their data. For example, I can walk around Phila. and ask 100 people which is the best football team. How much do you want to bet that the Eagles will prevail. Does that mean the Eagles are the best team?

But even if we ignore that – of course cost matters. My sons both chose their schools based on cost in the end – we have a comfortable living, but I would much rather help them make down payment on houses some day then leave them with debt for life. The cost issues can be complex for (upper) middle class families. For example, some colleges will count one in undergrad and one in grad as two children in school, and will offer FA accordingly. Others will only count undergrad education. For us, that is about a 15k annual difference in FA. How they stack outside scholarships matter. Perhaps you are full pay and these are not your issues. However, many people are not full pay, and rarely do two colleges offer the identical financial deal, all things considered.

I think the culture at Ross is the same you would see at any place where you have a large concentration of people trying to go for cutthroat jobs like banking or consulting. You will see similar cultures or worse in schools like NYU Stern, Penn Wharton, and Harvard (all of which send a similar or greater percentage of undergrad students to banking/consulting).

The academics are not responsible, or at least they should not be. Ross has really generous curves compared to LSA and Engineering classes of similar sizes.

yikesyikesyikes, NYU Stern is not a target for consulting firm. I am not sure about the percentage of NYU Stern students who are placed in IBanks since Stern suspiciously refuses to release placement figures, but I am fairly certain that a larger percentage of Stern students seek IBanking jobs than Ross students.

The article states it has more to do with the student body’s culture and the industry. I doubt it has to do with academics. Ross courses are not known to be tough, they are competitive to get an A+ and A, but not hard to achieve a B+.

^^^ Actually, Ross grading policy just changed for Fall 2017 and later BBAs. We used to get extra points for A+ and B+ (most common grade?) but not anymore. Everyone’s GPA will be going down.
https://www2.bus.umich.edu/MyiMpact/academics/bba-grading-scales-distribution