<p>hotpiece, I feel for you. In these discussions, we adults often overlook the fact that children have no say in the choices their parents make. </p>
<p>I hope that you are applying to places that give merit aid besides the "crappy state school." Good luck.</p>
<p>thanks marite, i applied to a few places that give merit aid, but i doubt it will be enough to trounce the full ride that i got from the state u.</p>
<p>We filled out the FAFSA with child #1, and like the OP, came up with jaw-dropping numbers. With children #2 and now #3, we don't even bother filling it out any more. We get the feeling they would laugh at us! Life is comfortable, we have a certain amount saved b/c we have always had our priorities straight, and the kids know how much we can kick in for their education. Between NM and other merit scholarships and the $20,000 (ok now it's 25,000) we can afford each year, they are all getting fine educations at the college of their choice. Not ivies, but very good schools. We are grateful we have had our health and not had major setbacks, and that our kids have been smart and (for the most part <em>ahem</em>) hard-working. I don't begrudge need aid to people who really need it, and if someone feels they need to take out loans to afford a big name school, that's their choice. We just don't do that.</p>
<p>According to Elizabeth, if you have a high efc, you have been living a good life. It is simle not true.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>If you have a high EFC, most likely that you have been working hard all your life (many extra hours, under high pressure), as nothing in this country is free. Yes, educated people earn more. But education is available to everyone in this country, especially if you are very poor (or very rich). I really do not understand all this glorification of manual labor workers: they deserve every penny they earn and every penny of the financial aid their kids receive. </p></li>
<li><p>If you have a high EFC, you were probably frugal, spending wisely (washing plastic bags or otherwise) and saving some. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>You also have raised great kids, since now you need money for their education. Good job all around and you are the one left holding the bag. </p>
<p>Amazon said that Having the smartest, best people, regardless of how wealthy, thrifty, generous, etc. their parents are, become the future leaders of our society, our doctors, judges, college professors is what our countries past and future greatness depends on. I could not agree more. </p>
<p>To create an equal access to opportunity we do not have to pay more taxes to the government (ok, may be a little bit more), but rather to have smart spending strategies. For example, in our state we pay 9.3% state taxes with 55% of these funds going to education. At the same time, we have a state University of very low quality.
There are examples that other states (CA, NC) are capable to create and support public Universities of much higher caliber, therefore it can be done with existing funds.
The solution would be to take these funds for education from incapable hands, and give them to those who know what they are doing. I absolutely do not mind if my kid will go to a public University as long as it is good. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, with existing system I have to pay for education of my kids twice: first time to my state (pay and not use it), and second time to my kids college.</p>
<p>I also strongly favor need based aid. I think need needs to be verified, however, and the basic principle that parents should make good spending and investing choices stands. The difficulty that some of us have is that while we regret that mistakes (lack of foresight) by parents may be visited on their children, by reducing their options, we're not sure that we or society at large should be expected to provide this compensation, as long as there remains a variety of educational options and the parents can yet be called upon to cough up more money than they were at first willing to do.</p>
<p>The advantage that some of us gain from advance planning, hard work, and luck is that we can handle the "sticker price" at private colleges without going into debt. If we fell short in this goal, we'd also hope for help in the form of financial aid; but much of that aid would, of course, be in the form of loans. In my kids' case, they got to start their careers without debt, which doesn't, however, mean that they can be entirely self-supporting right out of the gate.</p>
<p>tancat, I agree and would add Virginia to the states that know what they are doing when it comes to state schools. I so wished we were Virginia residents.</p>
<p>I'll second Amazon and (I think) TanCat: I think it would be a good thing if a first rate college education was available at a state-financed University for every student who qualified - at a cost the student could finance by part time work and summer jobs without their parent's involvement. That was pretty close to the way things were back when I attended UC in the 60's. But current priorities are otherwise, as exemplified by California's current governor, whose first acts after being elected were to (a) eliminate the property tax on automobiles, and (b) raise tuition at the state universities. Great for Hummer owners, bad for college students. Funding for California's public colleges has been choked off for years as well, leading to the gradual decline in their quality. And I am aware that the situation is even less rosy in other states.</p>
<p>I think it's fine to have private universities operating on whatever financial and academic standards they want. But I do think that for purposes of reinforcing the ideals of meritocracy a kid should have the opportunity to get a publicly funded college education at a state university to the highest standard that student can achieve regardless of the kids' parent's income or inclination to part with it for tuition.</p>
<p>yes we have even considered moving to Ca for the schools-( briefly), I think several of them would have been a good fit for younger D, but near impossible to get into out of state.</p>
<p>I have to say that with the legislature in session, decisions are being made that will affect state schools, and they do listen to their constituents.
Make yourself heard and demand an answer!</p>
<p>"2. If you have a high EFC, you were probably frugal, spending wisely (washing plastic bags or otherwise) and saving some."</p>
<p>Sometimes, or you can have a high EFC because you make a lot of income per year, even if you never saved a cent or spent wisely.</p>
<p>Parental income is a much greater factor in EFC than savings...</p>
<p>
[quote]
I really do not understand all this glorification of manual labor workers: they deserve every penny they earn and every penny of the financial aid their kids receive.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This nation is made up of immigrants, many of whom work as dishwashers, chambermaids, cleaning staff, house painters, etc... And they work darn hard, harder than those of us who work in offices. When they are sick, they do not earn anything. When I was sick, I was given sick leave on full pay for several months--twice. Most of them, if they have children, want to help their children get a good education. That's what financial aid is about. It's not about people being in the top 5% of income earners lamenting that they cannot afford their EFCs. Nor is it about glorifying manual labor. Sheesh.</p>
<p>And please remember, even a state university is not free or, in some cases, cheap. Ours comes to about $20k per year. The state's median income is approximately $45k. Remember the OP claimed that on an income of $160k, s/he felt that they could only set aside $10k per year for their child's education?</p>
<p>Marite:</p>
<p>Your last paragraph in you last post is exactly what I was getting at.</p>
<p>I would also like to see an example of someone who is "washing dishes until they bleed" who pays full freight tuition! It probably doesn't work that way. Those people usually qualify for need based aid.</p>
<p>Some of us may now have (relatively lucrative) "office jobs". These same office jobs may require long hours and extensive travel and lots of stress. So what? We earned these office jobs by working hard along the way. We may have worked three jobs during college (including making beds and washing dishes), and attended graduate school at night, while working two jobs, etc. We may have also paid for our own college educations. The fact that we can now pay full tuition for our children to attend college without having to wash dishes until we bleed does not mean that we always had such an opportunity. Does this make us lucky? It is all relative.</p>
<p>"I really do not understand all this glorification of manual labor workers"</p>
<p>I don't think we're glorifying it. Take a moment to think about it, though. Perhaps when you were younger, you did manual labor. Tough but worthwhile. Think about doing it today ... perhaps with lingering injuries that were never properly treated. Not so pleasant, I think.</p>
<p>My last post was referencing the last paragraph in post #119.</p>
<p>1sokkermom:</p>
<p>I am trying to address two types of posters: those who think that people who are able to pay full freight are the lucky rich who never have to do a stroke of work in their lives and those who think that people who are engaged in doing low-paid manual labor are somehow at fault for doing so into their middle age.</p>
<p>I, for one, feel very lucky. I went to college on full scholarship but my genetic pool included highly educated parents who valued education for their children.<br>
I have worked all my life. Have I put in long hours? Yes. Have I worked hard? yes. But so have many other individuals who have earned only a fraction of what I earn.</p>
<p>When my cleaning lady was sick, she did not earn a penny. She has a learning disability, so the kind of highly skilled work I do is out of the question. She, however, is willing to perform the kind of work that I and her other clients would rather not do. She has sometimes come to work fighting flu, or a bad back, or a sprained wrist. If she does not put in the hours, she does not earn a penny. When I was sick, I was on extended leave with full pay. It is people like my cleaning lady I think of when I say that they deserve every penny they earn and their children deserve financial aid. </p>
<p>I have no idea whether my state university provides financial aid to families like hers. I know that the tuition is not either free or even cheap for families making the median income.</p>
<p>where ever you go- r& b will be about $6,000 to $9,000
I am unclear whether the OP is stating that he will only pay $10,000 total each year, or if he is not counting r& B.</p>
<p>By the time D graduates in May, she will have paid about $12,000 in tuition( from summer jobs), and taken out about $15,000 worth of loans. We along with her school have made up the difference.( tuition is about $33,000)
The students role is important, she worked hard enough to be admitted to a school that met 100% of need, and hard enough that her finaid package is weighted with grants, and subsidized loans.
I know that some hope their children won't have loans, but unless you have full tuition saved, that isn't realistic or necessary.
After she applies her education grant earned from her year of service taken after high school, she will have about $10,000 of loans, a very reasonable amount.</p>
<p>I think it's clear that the posts about manual workers were not suggseting that they would then have to pay full fare. They were in answer to the suggestion that people who had EFC's too high for aid had worked very hard for that money. (the suggestion being harder than other people). The point is that people who work at manual labor or other low-paying jobs are working as hard, or more likely harder, than those of us with high EFCs. So, in essence, having worked hard isn't a rationalization for complaining about high EFCs.</p>
<p>If you have a high EFC, you have choices. Take a moment to celebrate. YOu are at the top, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. If you decide on different choices, well, good for you.</p>
<p>I just really, really can't imagine how an income of 160000 can't easily accomodate a 40,000 payout. I'm serious: where the heck does all that money go???</p>
<p>garland:</p>
<p>I so agree with you (as usual).</p>
<p>
[quote]
I just really, really can't imagine how an income of 160000 can't easily accomodate a 40,000 payout. I'm serious: where the heck does all that money go???
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Believe me I'm trying to figure it out. It sure sounds like a lot of money, but I seem to have misplaced it. I know things will work out for my kids because I have the ability to earn more and they will have the benefit of some support from their grandparents. I won't complain about our EFC, I'm grateful that my husband and I have good jobs. We have taken some expensive family vacations, those days are over now. It costs $50 to take my family to the movies, without any snacks or drinks. Dinner out at a modest family restaurant pushes $100. That's the sort of thing we'll have to cut out completely, but you won't hear me complaining. It's not like we won't be able to eat. I have three kids in orthodontia at the same time, thankfully not too much more left to pay on that. My husband has an expensive commute and needs to brown-bag his lunch but doesn't. We live in a high tax state, but in a very modest area. I'm very glad we made the choice to stay in our first home with a reasonable mortgage payment, that helps. We have no other debts, but I know we could and should save more than we do. In the end, it will impact me the most as I'll be working more but I feel strongly about not taking out home equity loans. I know that's how a lot of people pay for college but with four kids there's just not enough equity to go around. We will strongly search out merit aid because of the size of our family. If I only had one child it would be a different story.</p>
<p>
[quote]
What some posters, including myself, questioned, was the assumption contained in some posts that those of us who are able to pay full freights for our children's education have been sitting on our duff all along watching our trust funds grow.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think it's fair to say that for anyone other than the very wealthy, it's hard to meet the EFC -- I know that it is for us. I also would like to reiterate the idea that most people work hard for their money, whether through unskilled or professional labor. The physical challenges of unskilled labor, and the lack of benefits, are tough for families -- my parents were immigrants, and the only work my father could get in this country was in a steel mill. My husband's dad worked in oil fields in Texas. So I know the demands of those lives.</p>
<p>But I'll say that my husband (and me, when I was working professionally) earns his income the honest way. Through long hours, extensive business travel (he just got back from a trip where he got about 6 hours of sleep in a 48 hour trip), long distance relocations, and intense responsiblity and pressure. My mother and MIL always served dinner by 5:00 pm -- I aim for 7:00 or 7:30 pm, hoping my husband can join us. </p>
<p>Finally, someone made the point about saving early for education. We did that to some degree, but with multiple relocations, private schools and music lessons, we just couldn't save enough. But we just look at it this way -- what we didn't save for in the past, we'll pay back in the future.</p>
<p>160,000 family of 4 plus 1 in college
-45,000 taxes (federal, state, SS)
-15,000 food
-3,000 clothing, haircuts
-5,000 medical insurance
-2,000 dentist
-2,000 medical and dental not covered
-5,000 electricity, water, heating, garbage, daily newspaper
-5,000 vacation, sports and music camps, flights for kids to come home, etc.
-5,000 gasoline
-2,000 car maintenace
-3,000 car insurance
-3,000 homeowners insurance
-5,000 property tax
-5,000 household maintenance ( painting, things breaking etc. )
-20,000 mortgage
-16,000 retirement savings, savings to buy a new car, etc.
-1000 cable for internet and tv
-1000 cell phones</p>
<h2>-1000 gifts for Christmas, birthdays, weddings, etc.</h2>
<p>16,000 left over for college</p>
<p>1 scenario where I don't see a family living high (I'm sure there are more).</p>