<p>If you have a bright student who does very well in school, but doesn't want to take the fourth year of math and science that's so highly recommended across the board, are they really limiting themselves?</p>
<p>I have a daughter that - so far - does well in all of her subjects...but her heart is in the English, History, humanities area and she doesn't see why she should have to take the 4th year in science and math when she could take something that interested her more like - playwriting, or something along these lines.</p>
<p>She's finishing 9th grade with Geometry and Bio. Next year she'll do Chemistry and Algebra II Honors. This all gets a little complicated by the fact that she's basically "skipping" a grade by taking two summer school classes this summer, starting as an 11th grader next year and hoping to fit in another two courses by taking an extra course next year and then in her senior year. As I said, her interests are not along the science/math lines at this point, anyway.</p>
<p>I've been reading so many different threads on here...just read one by a student "Forcing a Fit?" which was a refreshing one...</p>
<p>I do not want to get sucked into the competitive nature of the whole college scene, nor do I want my daughter to become anxiety driven...yet, there's this little nagging voice whispering in my ear...saying "But will her transcripts be 'good enough' if she doesn't follow the expected path?"</p>
<p>Are there any parents here who have been through this or are now? </p>
<p>Having been a person that received a BFA, and someone who did not take that 4th year of Math and Science, I'm loath to act as if I think it's imperative...yet, I still wonder.</p>
<p>If your daughter is taking Geometry in the 9th grade then I'm assuming she took Algebra I in the 8th. That should get her out of one year of high school math. Depending on the demands of her chosen college she probably need not take a fourth year of science. The colleges will look at what she did with the time she freed up.</p>
<p>Blumini, I think that there is not an universal answer to your question. It really depends from the colleges you will target. On a personal note, I did not have four years of math in my HS curriculum, but I could make a case for having one math (Algebra I) and one science (Physics) transferred from eight grade. </p>
<p>One part of your post jumped at me ... the fact to skip 10th grade. Would this not be the same as trying to graduate early and skip 12th grade? I am no expert - and would encourage to poll Marite's and SoozieVT's opinions- but I think that skipping 10th grade may throw schools a curve, especially schools like Stanford that do not count grades from the 9th grade. From an uneducated vanathe point, I would think that it may dangerous to "skip" the 10th grade, or at least present it as such to outside schools. It may all be semantics, but I am of the opinion that every application that does not fit the regular pattern presents a distinct set of challenges. On the other hand, homeschoolers have demonstrated that overcoming the challenges is feasible.</p>
<p>Well, there is a story to all of this and I felt as though I didn't really want to bore everyone with the historic facts... Daughter had a bad health year during what was her "real" 9th grade year. It's a long story but the basics are that she was doing a correspondence program, due to extreme involvement with serious ballet...had a health crisis due to Rx prescribed (very bad reaction to Rx)... To be brief she was not able to finish her full load of courses.</p>
<p>When she returned to a normal school this past year (and is no longer in the ballet world), they felt it would be better for her to "restart" 9th grade... We went along with it for a variety of reasons. This is a private school, just FYI. And yes, she'd already taken Algebra I in 8th grade and she'd taken some sort of Intro to Physics course then too... </p>
<p>She has done extremely well in all her classes and really feels she wants to "catch up" to where she "would have been" had she not "lost" a year. Part of this desire to catch up is because she feels like a fish out of water in her current grade from a social stand point. This coupled with the fact that she has done so well and not been as challenged as she'd have liked have made her want to try to do this. Her school is willing to help her do this if she wants to.</p>
<p>I realize it's a bit of a different sort of situation. I appreciate your responses because it does help me to try to see this all through someone else's eyes. </p>
<p>I think her determination - the same determination that enabled her to recover from her health crisis, etc. - is what is driving her forward now. She feels as though she is treading water right now.</p>
<p>Blumini, Wait another year to make the decision about that 4th year of science and math. In the meantime, have her take the PSAT in the fall, even if she is "only" a sophomore. See how she does on the PSAT - that will give you a little idea of where she might fall in terms of the level of selectivity of colleges she might aim for. In the next year, also have her start thinking about the size and type of school she might be interested in (Buy her a copy of the Fiske Guide and suggest she look through it for ideas). </p>
<p>Once you have a better sense of what type of school she might be shooting for, you can make the decision about that extra year of math and science by looking at the required and recommended course loads of the various potential schools. Then you can make the decision about the following year (her senior year) in terms of whether she should take another science class.</p>
<p>One tip: if you think she may want to apply to your state university system, even as a safety, check on their requirements now. Public U's are often less open to accepting students who don't meet their required curriculum than private schools. So, I would use that as your basic guide for now.</p>
<p>In my daughter's case, she has opted for only 2.5 years of science in order to fit studio art into her schedule. But she decided, reluctantly, to take that 4th year of math because she knew that missing BOTH science and math would be a real weakness. She understands that the decision not to take more science will probably make her a weaker candidate at the schools on her list, however.</p>
<p>carolyn, great advice - and thanks for bringing me back to reality a bit, too. I probably am worrying about it all to far in advance. Yes, had planned to have her take the PSAT next fall and then the SATs in the spring, I believe.</p>
<p>Yes, I've read that most people here seem to think highly of the Fiske Guide and will get a hold of it soon. Also will check out the state university's requirements as well. </p>
<p>In re your own daughter's decisions, I do understand that sometimes these kinds of choices have to be made and think it's great when they can be made - especially if it's to help the student pursue something he or she might not otherwise have been able to...as in the studio art or anything worth while really. Of course, it's best to go through with these decisions with "eyes wide open", too. Good for your daughter. </p>
<p>Thanks for the suggestions. It's nice to get some helpful feedback to help me put this in some perspective. :)</p>
<p>Blumini,
I do think that it's easy to worry too much about this whole thing. </p>
<p>After last year, it became clear to me that my daughter was going to go crazy trying to fit in the "perfect" courseload, "perfect" extracurriculars, and a "perfect" life. I'm not putting down anyone's kid who can do it all but I realized after last year that my daughter isn't that person and, more importantly, she doesn't WANT to be that person. It took me a while to adjust to the idea but now I'm fine with it.</p>
<p>Through my research on colleges, I realized there are LOTS of great schools out there where you don't have to be "perfect" to get in or to get a very good education. My daughter has never wanted to aim at the top schools (and they probably would not be a good fit for her anyhow) and yet I was pushing her for just that. </p>
<p>She has found many wonderful schools that are not on everyone's radar that seem like they would be happy to have her and where she would be happy to go. Just remember - there are 3,000+ 4 year colleges in the U.S. and you can get a good education at the vast majority of them --- and your daughter and my daughter WILL have many choices without trying to be "perfect."</p>
<p>The best summary I've heard of this topic went something like:
Remember, the adcoms are trying to put together a well rounded student body not a student body of well rounded students.
Or put another way: you want to look more like an egg than a perfect circle.</p>
<p>Blu, I have the same concerns as you. My daughter, currently a junior, does not plan to take Math next year, because she wants to take Anthropology. I now struggle with this decision because her science is also "light" - one year of "conceptual physics", one year of Honors Chemistry, and 2 years of IB Environmental Systems integrated science. She's not planning to study math or science, but still. A friend recommended contacting the admissions committee of the schools she might want to attend, and see what they say about it. That may help us figure into the equation what courses she'll take next year. Part of me really prefers she take Anthro since I know she'd love the course, but I also don't want her lack of math/science to be a limiting factor for her. We're still debating it and struggling with it.</p>
<p>My daughter had 4 years of science in high school- theoretical physics and three lab classes- biology-chemistry and environmental biology/marine science. She had 3&1/2 years of math geometry-advanced algebra- statistics & precalc.
This was standard at her school, she was probably in middle track- some took more advanced science and math. She was planning on attending a school with limited requirments or attending an art school even up through senior year. after senior year- she took a year off, and is now a science major.
Even though she had precalc in high school, because she took a year off before college, she needed to retake precalc at a community college in summer because Calculus was the lowest math offering her school had.
If you have three year of lab sciences and strong math courses at least through advanced algebra at min or preferably precalc and stat, then you have a decent background if you decide to change majors. I always argue for students to be better prepared. I know it sucks when there is really a class they want to take in high school, but high school is where they get the foundation, if they don't have it in high school, it may limit their options in college</p>
<p>shojomo, have you discussed your concerns, or has your daughter discussed your concerns with her current school? Mine goes to a small school, so I do plan on getting some conversations going and have asked my daughter to arrange a meeting with either the head of the upper school or maybe even the college counselor there. If there is someone who she could talk to that really "knows" her strengths academically, maybe it would be helpful and it will make her become more involved in the big picture of the decision. At least this is what I'm hoping for in our situation.</p>
<p>emeraldkity4 - thank you so much for telling me about your daughter's change of heart because that's just the kind of thing I'm concerned about - the ability to keep one's options open. Interesting that after your daughter's year off she changed her goals - were her "year off" activities part of the reason why?</p>
<p>Well, we're in two weeks of spring break now so I'll just have to bide my time and try not to dwell on all this too much.;)</p>
<p>One thing: Don't worry about "skipping" 10th grade if that's what ends up happening. I can't speak for every instance, but I basically "skipped" my freshman year. However, I'm still completing four years of high school. So, my freshman-junior courseload was challenging HS curriculum and my senior year has been sort of "trying to keep it challenging but having a hard time because I ran out of classes at the HS and am having a hard time fitting classes in at the community college". Basically, I included a little note with all of my applications that explained my predicament. All the adcoms I spoke to said they're glad I said something or they would have been wary.</p>
<p>So, there's no problem in talking to the adcoms about courseload type problems and that sort of thing.</p>
<p>Onto the science/math thing, I'd also second waiting. I was convinced I wouldn't take all four years of math. Then I took AP Calc BC junior year and Math269/Multivariable Calculus this year... because I wanted to keep continuing in math. So, minds do change. And, if she doesn't, I second checking the requirements at the state schools and just knowing that her interest will shine through. :D</p>
<p>She took a year off to do CityYear- a domestic PeaceCorps where she was able to live @ home to save money- but spent 40+ hrs a week, working with homeless 5th graders and teaching tech skills to inner city youth.
I don't think it was her experiences that changed her mind toward her post high school focus, but just that she took a year off.Attending art school meant pretty much that you were going to have that as your career, or at least try to, and she realized that while she loves creating, that science was equally compelling. She also took my advice that she think about getting a regular college degree rather than art school.
However, while majoring in design can be limiting, your daughters focus is much broader, lots of schools where she can major in english/history and that are large enough so that if she wants to change majors she can.However- sounds like she is same age as my 14yr old, and I expect her focus will switch back and forth by the time she is ready to apply to colleges. She probably should take a look at a few schools that she might want to apply to and see their requirements remembering that the requirements that they require for application are lower oftentimes than what you need for admission.</p>
<p>Blu, I have discussed my concerns with my daughter- many times over. She is generally very compliant and willing to suffer through something for the greater good, but her high school math experience has been rough. She goes to a public IB high school program; our designated IB counselor has over 600 students to counsel and "college" counseling is non-existent there. With my older daughter (now a junior in college), we briefly sought the services of a private college counselor who seemed to be a waste of time and money. Both my daughters went to a private K-8 school, and wanted out of the cloistered, close-knit private school environment when it was time for high school. That was a great decision overall, but we do miss the excellent counseling services and hand-holding that the private school offered. (Of course, with the tuition $$ saved, we could purchase many hours of private counseling, if we wanted). I guess it's something of a full circle in that my older daughter attends a private university (Stanford), and my younger is also seriously looking at private colleges, although she is turned off by very small schools for fear they will have the same claustrophobic feel she experienced in middle school. Well, that's a bit off topic, but we are visiting colleges next week over spring break, and one of our goals is to specifically ask about the 4 years of math along with whether the 2 years of Environmental Systems will be a major issue in her application for admission. We still have time to change her course selection for next year, and although my daughter has made her preferences very clear, she can be persuaded otherwise.</p>
<p>One other thing to keep in mind, that actually swayed my daughter on the math: most of the schools she is interested in have math or at least a quantitative requirement as part of their general ed requirements for graduation. My daughter has never been strong in math and after realizing she'd have to take it in college, she decided that she would have a hard time going back to it after a year "off" if she didn't take it in senior year.</p>
<p>We have directly asked all of the schools we have visited (12 plus but not top ranked schools) about the science issue. Nearly all of them said that they could live with the lesser science because my D. was pursuing one of her passions (art). However, almost universally they then say "But she'll have 4 years of English and math right?" even though none of them say they "require" 4 years of math. I do, however, know of kids who have gotten into very decent schools with just three years of math (but they all were strong in other areas). </p>
<p>So again, I don't think there is any "right or wrong" here...just be aware that every decision may lead to consequences.</p>
<p>if she stays in the humanities, then 3 yrs of math is probably not a big issue for future educational goals, but as Carolyn's note implies, adcoms apparently prefer to see 4 years of math. However, if D decides to move into social sciences (any of the 'ologies'), calc-lite is almost always required, if for no other reason as to interpret the research data.</p>
<p>Besides knowing what colleges require, it's also good to think about the consequences of having to take math in college after a break of a year in HS. My son, a hs junior, will have had 5 years of math (he took two last year) at the end of this year but will take one more year as a senior so he doesn't have a break before he starts college.</p>
<p>Blue is right. My daughter thought she'd major in history but is now leaning towards either psychology or sociology. At nearly every school, both require at least one math-related course, usually statistics. D. is actually considering taking statistics next year as a senior instead of pre-calc.</p>
<p>My daughter worried about the four years of math and science question too. She is a senior this year, and wanted to take AP Psychology as her fifth academic subjec instead of a science as a senior (she also takes electives in Art and Music, so she has 7 subjects plus PE with this schedule) She is also doing an independent study in AP Art History. She took Honors Bio, Chem, and Physics and was very worried about "dropping" science as a senior, since most or almost all of the better students in our school take either an Honors or AP science as a senior (Chem 2, Physics 2, AP Bio, AP Physics, or AP Env. Science), but it worked out fine for her. She is taking Honors (not AP) Calculus this year. The college she was admitted to Early Decision (Kenyon) recommends 3 years of science and four of math, so she met their recommendations. However, some other colleges we looked at recommend four years of science. For example, Vassar recommends four years of science, and the admission counselor at Vassar specifically told us that three years would be detrimental to her application as she would be compared with others who had the four years. Of course, as these are only recommendations rather than absolute requirements, strengths in other areas could overcome this weaker part of the record and would not absolutely preclude the student from being admitted.</p>
<p>I wish we had a Statistics option at my daughter's HS. My daughter faces 2 options at her high school: PreCalc (although she already took a correspondence course in PreCalc through Berkeley Extension- considered a 1 unit course, and I'm not sure how much this "counts"- she took this course primarily to prepare her for IB Math 1 to which PreCalc is NOT a prerequisite (ALG 2 is the PREREQ), but most of the students in IB MAth 1 have had PRECALC and it seems to help if one has. As it turns out, she's still working hard for the B, but so are the rest of the students- class of 36, and 4 A's...but I digress) or AP Calculus. The chair of the math department said she could go into the AP Calc class based on her having had the PreCalc correspondence course, but I know it would be a real major stretch for her. The other option would be to take a community college class during the school year, in either math or Biology. There might be a statistics option for her at the CC, or possible "re-take" PreCalc, and have a full year of pre-calculus. The CC option ( in either stats, Pre-Calc or Calc) doesn't help her GPA. CC classes are not counted as "weighted" classes on her transcript, but they do not have to appear on the transcript either, and just have a supplemental transcript from the CC. Thoughts? Would it look odd to have another PreCalc class, from either the CC or her HS, after having taken the correspondence course? The IB Math 1 course is an integrated-type class; it includes statistics, logic, probability, some trig, some pre-calc, and a bit of calc. For most kids who take it, it is the last Math class they take, and they take a standard level IB test at the end. A few go on to take AP Calculus after it, but most don't, because the students in IB Math 1 are pretty universally not math-types and they're eager to get out of math as soon as possible. However, many (about half) are taking IB Math 1 in their senior year after PreCalc in the junior year. My daughter skipped the PreCalc in the junior year since she took the correspondence course, and to keep the option of AP Calc open for her senior year- an option that both she and I think is kind of scary given her weaknesses in Math in general, and the weakness of her PreCalc correspondence course. Sorry for the long drawn-out post. As you can probably tell, I'm kind of stressed by this.</p>