<p>While the kids thought their Counselor whas a pest and had so many deadlines, in the end, I guess I can say that we have a really good college counselor because over the course of 2 years she knows every single graduating student.</p>
<p>At our H.S. all juniors must complete a year-long internship.
This is a 2-credit, graded course that involves working six to ten hours per week and taking a seminar on work-related issues taught by the college counselor. The process begins in April of the 10th grade, when information is sent home to parents describing the program and giving options. Students fill out forms stating their interests, and Gc/College counselor begins the process of matching students interests and personalities with potential employers.
Seminar classes begin in September of 11th grade and, after some preparation, students begin their internships in October. Monday and Thursday afternoons are set aside for internship work, and no classes are scheduled for those times. The internships last through June. The final grade for the course is based 50% on seminar participation and 50% on the internship work. Information for recommendation forms are handed out in the spring of junior year (brag sheets, resume formats etc). GC Writes all of the preliminary recommendations over the summer on her own time. When school starts in the summer, students are given another form asking them to update their resumes with any new things and then the the rec is modified.</p>
<p>Senior year the students have a year-long senior institute. The first haf on the term is dedicated to helping the students narrow down the college choices, each student are assigned a list of colleges (outside of the usual suspects) and reports on those schools. They discuss financial aid (Fafsa, css profile and fill out sample forms in class) The discuss options for financing your college education, scholarship search etc.
She has an extremely organized process for handling applications, midyear reports traanscrips etc: For example: each student is given are a transcript verification form to and their transcript to cneck for any discrepancies. this form must be signed by both the student and the parent. When the admissions process is over they have discussions on transitioning from H.S< to college where they learn how to make a budget, the students research their schools career services, job data base s that they have some idea of the type of jobs that are available on campus (work study and non work study).</p>
<p>They have a senior thesis, which each student must to submit a thesis topic. Each student is then assigned 2 teachers who are their thesis advisors. Grades for the thesis were given by the College counselor in collaboration with the 2 thesis advisors.</p>
<p>Our H.S. has 1 GC per 150 kids. Sounds pretty good doesn't it? When D and I went in for our Junior year conference, the GC was gushing on about how great D was, and how she could apply anywhere,and I noticed that she had another student's profile in front of her, with same initials. It happened to be a student in the same 'category' as D, but can you imagine if it was a very average kid in D's seat, that took her advice seriously?</p>
<p>My D's school has one counselor for every 3-400 students. The counselors don't know the students at all, and are usually more of a hindrance than a help. (really) We have had multiple problems getting the gc to send out rec letters for various things. For the college apps, my d went in at the very beginnjing with a neat folder containing all the info, sas envelopes, deadlines etc. Then, she checked back to see that the letters had been sent. The gC showed her an empty folder and said yes, see they were sent. Then dd began to get contacted by all her colleges. The only thing missing was the gc letter. The gc claimed to have sent them, but said she would follow up and call the schools. We just wanted her to resend them! What was the big deal? it was the same form for all of them. It took multiple calls, emails, voicemails on our part, and ultimately my daughter had to corner her in her office to get her to fax the letters. Even the colleges were trying to contact her to get her to comply. She had missed an ea deadline. I was livid, but, as one poster indicated above, we may still need her for several things and i don't want to make things WORSE.</p>
<p>I don't understand. Granted, the college insists on the GC filling out a profile; but there is nothing to prevent a teacher from writing a rec of his/her own and saying whatever s/he wants to say. Two of the schools my S applied to demanded that the recs come from high school teachers (though they also accepted recs from college profs). One rec came from the AP-Physics teacher my S had had as an 8th grader. I'm sure he explained he had not seen S for over two years by then.</p>
<p>To add a small tidbit to this GC discussion, let me share some the contents of an email/letter that my parents just received from my sister's Counseling Department. The letter is dated January 31, 2005. </p>
<p>"Students interested in the highly selective colleges should take the SATII tests either in May or June. We recommend the Writing test and the Math IC test, and one other test chosen by the student.</p>
<p>Maybe, just maybe, the counselors might pay attention to their own advice. Doing so might avoid to recommend a test that is no longer offered or recommend the less generous of the two SATII math tests. With all the hoopla surrounding the announcement of the new SAT, how can a professional miss the much-publicized changes of the Writing test? </p>
<p>Marite...easy explanation. DS is a music major. DS needed two recommendations from teachers of music...his private teacher AND his school ensemble conductor. Those were the only teacher recs permitted. The only additional recommendation was the required GC rec....so that is where the math explanation had to go. BUT if the GC rec had not been mandatory, DS would have had the math teacher write the rec. To be honest, the music teachers covered everything that was important for my kid...the guidance counselor wasn't even sure what instrument he played...never mind anything else pertinant about him.</p>
<p>Okay, I understand. Kids like yours do have a harder time with GC recs. Even our GC, who did a very good job, probably was not aware of the ECs my S was in, even though they are mostly academic and school-based. I can well understand that your S's GC would not know about your S's musical interests. It's too bad the colleges were so strict about limiting the number of recs, given that they were asking for one outside rec.</p>
<p>xiggi,
your sister's guidence department surely gets the prize for that one. I am feeling more and more positive about my son's GC. She is not familiar with competitive school application, but one of her students got burned a couple of years ago at Chapel Hill - all A's, but not enough AP's - and out of state. She's still mad over that one, and is trying really hard. If my son gets into one of his first choice colleges, I'm sending her a big bouquet of flowers.</p>
<p>Just as a note....while my son's situation with the GC may have been different (he's a music major), I will stick my neck out here and say that the one my daughter has isn't much better. He knows who she is (at least) but so does everyone else in the school as she is the morning receptionist in the main office....hardly material for writing the counselor recommendation. The GC does not know my daughter's interests, outside of school activities (which are very significant and show a commitment and passion), or even her school strengths. The teachers she has could certainly provide better recommendations and information than the GC will be able to do...unless <em>WE</em> write the letter for him...what's the point in that??? The GC will meet with my daughter for future planning in October of her senior year. By that time she hopes she will have most of her applications complete. The school does the Strong Interest Inventory in May of the junior year....GC will have the results in September of senior year. What good is that??? The timeline this guidance department uses is about a year too late to be of value to students. If they really wanted to "help" students (and families) in the college process, they would do their work in the beginning of the junior year, not the senior year. My daughter is in the top 10% (actually 6%) of her class, and still, the GC is of no use...none. Nice guy...but not any help in the college process.</p>
<p>"When D and I went in for our Junior year conference,"</p>
<p>S's school doesn't do that for juniors or even for seniors!
To the people who say that the GC doesn't know much about your kids: Have the music teacher and/or the EC advisors give the GC a copy of their recommendations early in the application season. Also have your child give the GC a resume, activity sheet and/or autobiographical essay (the type that colleges ask for).</p>
<p>IMO it is unreasonable to expect GCs to be totally up to date on what one's child is doing. That's why it's important for your child to provide the GC with information that could be helpful. The GC can use this info when writing the recommendations that many colleges and scholarship programs require from the GC.</p>
<p>I agree that meeting in the senior year to plan for college is too late. In our school, there is an information session for juniors (I forget exactly when), but students can make an appointment to see their GC any time.
I also want to reiterate what I and Northstarmom said: students need to help GCs write recs on their behalf by providing information that GCs can use. All the GC knows about a student's performance in class is the grade the student got. All the GC may know about a student's ECs is what the student told the GC, unless the student did something memorable that the GC witnessed. And if the GC has 200 students to track, such information may not be recalled in a timely manner to write the rec.
The brag sheets that students are asked to fill out are often inadequate to provide all that information.</p>
<p>I wrote the original post for this thread and my point was that even though my D had given the GC a list at the beginning of her senior year, he had not used it to write the letter. I wouldn't have known this if I had not opened an extra letter I had. Since the letters are sealed, you do not have any assurance that the letter is accurate or even grammatically correct. I do agree that it is far better to have a teacher write a letter, however not all colleges will take extra letters of rec. My advice is for everyone to get an extra letter if you have any concerns and find out for yourself what has been written.</p>
<p>Kayjo, that's good advice, which I wish I could take. Unfortunately, many high schools don't make GC/teacher recs available to parents or students. Our Counseling Center manages all letters, and if the student/parent waives the right to read them, there'd be no opportunity to discover a poorly written, unprofessional letter such as the one prepared for your d. I understand it was a fluke that you wound up with an extra letter, but in our system students are never in possession of rec letters, even sealed ones.</p>
<p>I've often wondered how thorough/accurate GC recs are. My oldest d's GC required all parents to write a rec for their students, which she would refer to in preparing her own letter. I thought this was a rather nice thing to do and enjoyed writing it. When my current senior and I met with her (different) GC last spring, I referred to the parent letter and there was an awkward silence, after which the counselor said that she never requested parent recs and added "I write every word of my recommendations myself." It suddenly occurred to me that the first GC could easily use whole paragraphs of the parent letter and, if the right to read recs was waived, who would ever know? Certainly most GCs would never do something like this, but there was something about the way the current GC addressed the issue that made me wonder. The 1st GC is distressingly political and has been known to, um, "misrepresent." </p>
<p>Still - a parent letter could help an overwhelmed GC write a more detailed rec, as long as it wasn't obnoxiously braggy.</p>
<p>Kayjo, I know that it was upsetting to see that letter. As Frazzled says in the above post, most of us do not get to see our kids' recs. You really should not have opened that letter, if your student waived the right to view the rec. Having done so, you now have the advantage of knowing what you have to deal with. You can have your D write a letter to the schools saying that her GC is overwhelmed and does not really know the students well, or some other thing that would dovetail with that short, underwhelming rec, and have a dept chair or teacher who knows her well, send a Midyear rec, as the Midyear grades are being sent at this time. As I said earlier, I don't think the rec is going to hurt her at all. Sometimes it is the well meaning GC that inadvertantly hurts the student with ill chosen words. That rec is truly a null and reflects on the GC, not the student. </p>
<p>The danger with adding extra recs is that they usually are not read. The adcoms at this time of the year are so busy that they barely have time to read the ones sent, and unless they are looking for more, are not interested in reading other recs. They are unfortunately not usually very good reading. The GC recs are always read as it is assumed that someone in that position as a good overview of the students in that school. In the most selective schools, with so many students for so few spots, everything is used for culling, not for admissions, so a bad or poorly worded rec from the GC can truly do damage. But the one your D's GC wrote would just be pitched, and would not affect the decision. The worst damage is done by decently written recs that say the wrong things. Unlike the teachers' recs which are supposed to support the kid, the GC recs are supposed to have a gatekeeping element to them, and so they are read. You did the best you could to prepare the GC. In this case, it is clear that the GC has a dim bulb up there.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>IMO it is unreasonable to expect GCs to be totally up to date on what one's child is doing. That's why it's important for your child to provide the GC with information that could be helpful. The GC can use this info when writing the recommendations that many colleges and scholarship programs require from the GC.>></p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>I FULLY agree with this statement. It IS unrealistic to expect the GCs to know about the students. So...when are the colleges going to figure out that the letters are written with info provided by the student...not based on info the person knows. I thought recommendations were supposed to be based on what a person KNEW about an individual, not what they are TOLD about them. This system of GC recs is flawed...and the universities must know it. Still many require this recommendation. Flawed....very flawed....</p>
<p>It would be interesting to start a list of words that sound good, but have secret meaning to adcoms. Seems that all the kids on this board mention having great recommendations, perhaps they only think they are great?!</p>
<p>If "diligent" is a negative (hard-worked, not genius?), I'd bet "cheerful" is a real kiss of death!</p>
<p>I have read several letters over the years and realised that what sounds good to a parent really can have a secret code meaing to the professionals. What other words can you tell us about?</p>
<p>I know the "one of our best" or "one of the best I've seen" is a very key positive.</p>
<p>Does anyone else remember the old National Lampoon sex test? there was a section on how people describe the dates they have in mind to fix you up with...</p>
<p>cute = short, annoying high pitched giggle
kind to animals = so unspeakably ugly that you must run screaming
etc...</p>
<p>Back to college admission:</p>
<p>all bland compliments like "nice, warm, hard-working, diligent, responsible" etc would be dangerous</p>
<p>instead you want to see "natural leader, brilliant, incredible multi-tasker, best in career..."</p>
<p>I know that has been said before, but really the G.C's letter is only there to represent your High School administration. Schools really want to know if there is significant negative information, like the kid was suspended for 5 days, has been in and out of drug re-hab, cheated on exams, been involved in physical violence, etc. For 90% of the H.S. students, the G.C. letter is merely scanned for red flags.</p>
<p>We have asked about the value of a G.C. letter at many college info. sessions, and have never been told anything different.</p>
<p>On a side note, at JHU last year, the adcom guy was giving us examples of the extremes students go to; sending in 35 rec. letters, mailing large packages in lieu of the essay. Poor us, we actually stuck with 2 recs., and took 'essay' to mean a literary piece.</p>
<p>'diligent ' is a killer.
'nice'...?? ........wait, didn't we get sent back to work some more on our story in 3rd grade, for using the word 'nice'.</p>
My favorite was the Stanford adcom who recounted the laugh the whole dept had at a similar package including a rec from the family dentist stating the that the applicant had great teeth :rolleyes:</p>