High School participation critical?

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>I have what, to me, seems like a very strange question related to a situation I never figured being in. Is it critical for a young musician to participate in their HS music program?</p>

<p>Here's where this is all coming from:
- My daughter is a HS sophomore who has talked about being a performance major since 8th grade.
- This is definitely where her talent lies and as each semester goes by it looks more and more like that is the path she will take.
- She is principal in her section in the local youth symphony (I would say top 5 youth symphony in the U.S.)
- She loves playing, loves youth symphony, loves her chamber group, and works hard at her craft.
- But . . . she REALLY doesn't want to play in her HS ensemble anymore. She wants to play at a high level, and gets frustrated when other kids don't practice. She's also very frustrated with the conductor's lack of focus, time-wasting, etc. as she perceives it. I will admit that as far as this part goes, I understand where she's coming from. My wife and I have been very disappointed with the music program at her school.</p>

<p>We've had the discussions with her about "making the best out of bad situation", "looking for leadership opportunities", and "you aren't always going to find yourself in great ensembles" but, I have to admit, I really don't have a GOOD reason to tell her she can't quit next year. My fear is that this will somehow reflect poorly on her when she applies to college/conservatory, but right now it seems to me that all the HS group is accomplishing is putting wear and tear on her with no real benefit. (Some earlier threads here about pit-orch come to mind.)</p>

<p>Any thoughts, from experience or otherwise?</p>

2

<p>Could she do something different musical at school–perhaps sing in the chorus–to broaden her musical experience? I can recall this question from previous threads, and the consensus was generally that participation in the high school ensemble was not necessary.</p>

3

<p>Are you sure it is not a requirement for her youth orchestra that she keeps playing in her high school group as well? It is with the youth orchestra my son plays with and when older child played with local college orchestra as a high school kid it was also a requirement to stay with high school group.</p>

4

<p>Hi. We went through this with our son at the start of his 10th grade. When our son got serious about violin, we knew we had to find a new teacher, one with other serious students. He auditioned for a well-known pedagogue in a city 250 miles away, who accepted him, but requested that he give up school orchestra so he could focus on the things he needed to focus on. He had just won an audition for the local semi-pro symphony here, and she was fine with him staying in that. Giving up the school orchestra brought wrath from the local teachers, even from one on the other side of the state. He endured lectures from them, and could no longer participate in youth symphony, all-state or contest, because all required participation in the school orchestra. He decided to rejoin the school orchestra his senior year, because he missed the contact with his music friends. But he was definitely punished for giving this up for two years and for studying with a non-local teacher. He took on a leadership role, leading sectionals, etc., and made the best of it. But it wasn’t easy, and he retreated into his own world to some degree. When he auditioned for all-state his senior year, he very reasonably expected to win the concertmaster position. Instead, he was seated four chairs behind players he could easily outplay. The judges did not care that every Saturday for three years this kid spent 8 hours in a car to make a 500-mile round trip for lessons, that he could outplay the others, that he was none-the-less a kind, supportive friend, etc. We were told by someone associated with all-state that the judges reward those who are loyally involved in the program year after year. I can’t tell you if giving up school orchestra and the state contests, all-state, youth symphony, etc., those two years was worth it, developmentally for him or not. I just don’t know. But he did it, because he adored his teacher and trusted her. He’s auditioning for grad schools this winter. It’s not an easy decision you and your D have to make. Best wishes.</p>

5

<p>Simple answer: it’s not at all critical.</p>

<p>It depends on what your child gets out of it. Mine had a positive experience in earlier years, but then left it after 10th grade. Not taking band in 11th grade helped her to graduate a year early. My child did not find any benefit or fun from doing All-District, All state, etc., and stopped doing them after 9th grade anyway.</p>

<p>Many youth symphonies do say they require participation in school ensemble, but it is easy enough to waive that requirement.</p>

6

<p>This is a common thread with music students who are in school programs, and the answer to the question is no, it won’t hurt them. While it is very true music is a small world and you have to be careful not to burn bridges, given the nature of college music admissions it is highly unlikely an angry high school music teacher could affect the student’s future. </p>

<p>First of all, admissions to a music program at the college level has two main aspects to it:</p>

<p>1)the audition
2)getting into a teacher’s studio (which does interact with 1, or can). In theory, a music teacher who is angry might know teachers at a program and try to influence them to try and hurt the student’s chances of getting in, but to be honest there is more chance of getting hit by lightening in a glass box that has a 100 foot lightening rod…just two different worlds. It may be different if the kid tried to get into a music ed program in your state, there is a lot more connection there, but with performance, it won’t have an impact. </p>

<p>The key to all this is if your kid is getting something out of the program at school, if it isn’t hurting them and they enjoy it, then by all means do it. The reality for more advanced music students, though, is school ensembles may hurt their own advancement, playing with kids who routinely play out of tune can throw a student off and so forth, and if it isn’t helping and especially if it is hurting them, why do it? </p>

<p>Just a warning, you will probably get all kinds of flack from the music director and the school, about how the kid doesn’t show “school spirit” or “owes the school”, and that is a load of cow flop. That is “you have spent all this time and energy becoming good, and now we want to use everything you have done to try and make our program look good”, and you know what, you have zero obligation to them. </p>

<p>The best one, the one I find the most laughable, is “as a musician, you will have to play with musicians of all abilities, so this is valuable”…and my answer to that one is the quote Henry Ford supposedly said about history, “Bunk!”. If a kid is heading towards performance and is at any kind of level, it is true they will face fellow students and such at different levels, even at a Juilliard you will find students who are out there, some in the middle, and some who trail a bit (and depending on instrument, kid could play Paganini like Heifetz and be a slug in chamber)…but there is no comparison to a high school ensemble where you have a couple of pretty decent players, maybe 1 or 2 stellar ones, and a lot who are gamely doing the program (I know, I was one of those). While in music you have to get used to differences in playing styles, approaches, and even ability, in college and then out in the real world, that range will narrow to be pretty small, one person won’t be playing the beethoven violin concerto while another struggles with a basic etude…</p>

<p>I can’t answer about the local youth symphony and whether they require you play in your school ensemble. The one my S was in definitely didn’t, in fact they would probably encourage them not to go into their school program. I can also tell you that in the high level prep programs, most of the kids don’t do their school music program because it distracts from what they are doing. </p>

<p>@onekidmama, I know what you went through well, though it wasn’t a public school, was a private one, in middle school, but same kind of attitude with our S.They gerrymandered his schedule so he had no lunch, was doing several independent study classes, to do ensembles with the high school and middle school, then copped a huge attitude with him because he couldn’t do the musical, too many conflicts…we got the riot act, how the school ‘went out of its way’ so he could play in the high school groups (my S didn’t want to), and the head of the school had this long talk about how he ‘owed’ the school (my s’s teacher heard this and was like “are they kidding? Did he get a music scholarship or something” and when we said no, we were paying full freight (as in a ton of money), told us to tell them to do something very rude). …and music teachers can be vindictive, petty people, friend of ours son is a talented performer on fiddle/violin, and he decided he didn’t want to do the school program. They retaliated against his sister, who is a very talented singer, by refusing to nominate her for all state…so nothing would surprise me.</p>

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<p>Some kids in my town have found that playing a completely different instrument in the school group is enjoyable and gives them enough of a challenge to keep it interesting - the violinist who takes up the bass or the bassist who gives the flute a try, for example.</p>

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<p>My daughter didn’t do any music at school in her last year, maybe even last two years. In fact, most of the kids with talent or real interest didn’t participate at some point.</p>

<p>There is only much time, and energy, to give. Some played in youth orchestras or went to conservatory prep, and all had lessons outside of school.</p>

<p>My daughter did contribute by writing some music for the school chamber music group.</p>

<p>The teachers didn’t hold her non-participation against her at all, which was lucky: that probably isn’t true everywhere.</p>

9

<p>This thread comes as a relief to me, my daughter was the viola section leader in her school orchestra and she quit this year because the teacher kept undercutting her role as section leader (she would schedule sectionals, which the section leaders are supposed to do, and the teacher wouldn’t mark down anyone for not attending). So she quit. We haven’t found a good viola teacher yet and she’s dealing with some physical issues from playing, so she’s kind of on hiatus right now. She’s planning to audition with voice as her primary instrument, but she’s a junior so she’s got a year to go.</p>

10

<p>If she’s applying to a conservatory it makes no difference at all. Few conservatory-level players that I know participated in their high school ensembles. If she’s applying to regular colleges, it also makes little differences. Her ECs will be with a higher level group, that’s all.</p>

11

<p>Thanks for the responses everyone. You’ve put my mind at ease quite a bit (with the exception of onekidmama - yikes!). D is very busy with private lessons, YS, and chamber so she has plenty going on. Fortunately our YS only “suggests” participation in HS program, so it shouldn’t be a problem. We’ve already discussed it with her private teacher and she understood.</p>

<p>Thanks again for the feedback. It’s great to have the online support as we navigate the road ahead.</p>