We’re fortunate to live in a metropolitan area with a handful of decent quality youth orchestras. Aside from the obvious issue of which one or ones accept my daughter (she’s in one this year, and will be re-auditioning for that one in June, along with 2 others. There’s a fourth that’s most geographically convenient, but it doesn’t audition until fall, so it’s hard to figure out how she’d ever finesse that). My head is swimming right now, just curious (especially as we watch a few end-of-year concerts) what criteria do you use to evaluate youth orchestras? One specific question is, do you prefer an orchestra that plays simplified repertoire really well, or one that plays the “real” stuff, but its reach sometimes exceeds its grasp? Would you choose a better conductor over better student musicians, or vice versa?
Also, how much does it matter how good the youth orchestra is? Certainly, for college auditions (let alone professional auditions down the road), how she plays will be more important than where she learned to play that way. I think I just wish I had a crystal ball to know which YO would serve her best.
She’ll be in 8th grade next year. Maybe I just need to have a cup of chamomile tea and forget about it.
I don’t mean to sound “snarky”, but probably will. Consider that due to my lack of perspective. I am in a major metropolitan area and raised professional string players. I am a musician myself.
I find it hard to believe that a youth orchestra that “plays simplified repertoire really well” at the high school level would be of much value to a student musician who is aiming for a conservatory.
I’ve seen this type of “simplified music” used effectively in youth orchestras for beginning students and lesser ability middle school age kids. At those stages of development, the teaching points are still focused on basics - reading ability, learning to play in an ensemble, etc. so the simplified music can be an appropriate vehicle. But for a high schooler hoping to study music at conservatory or respected college program, it sounds like a waste of parental money and student time.
Some will probably say that an advanced student playing simplified music will have the chance to gain leadership experience. Perhaps. I’d say that would occur in the first month of rehearsals and things would be quite boring after that.
Please correct my impressions if I’m wrong - I’m more than willing to be corrected. Just my two cents…
Does your D have access to a good chamber music program? Oboe D??? A woodwind quintet or reed trio or other ad hoc group would give her many opportunities to develop her personal musicianship while learning to be responsive to other players and musical considerations.
I’d say the good conductor is very very important - as they learn so much at that age from the conductor about music. And the others in the orchestra should be her peers or better. And they should be playing interesting music, real music. How serious is she, and how much time does she want to devote to the orchestra? Some will be more demanding than others - and that can be an issue when making a choice.
I’ll play devil’s advocate. So many young excellent musicians from our area youth orchestras burned out and decided that music wasn’t for them either during high school or college that my first concern would be that your daughter isn’t too stressed between her school work, lessons and youth orchestra(s). If she loves it and is thriving then continue. For full disclosure, son did audition and was accepted into our local youth orchestras but as a family we didn’t want to commit to the schedule and declined placement. It didn’t hurt with college since he consistently was either principal or assistant principal in his college orchestra over students who did perform in youth orchestras. (However, he chose a school for music ed instead of performance.) Also, he has been asked to fill in as a bass coach for one local youth orchestra this fall. I would opt for the chamomile and a schedule that works for your daughter and family.
My son’s a high school junior and has been auditioning for and playing with various regional symphony bands and jazz orchestras since middle school. I wish I’d had that chamomile tea (or perhaps more martinis…) when he was in 8th grade because I spent a few years researching which bands were “better” and considering which would “look better” on his resume. Same for summer camps, All State, etc. We weren’t necessarily thinking in terms of music schools back then, but college applications in general. Fortunately for my son, he’s a ham who loves to perform, so the more performance groups the better, especially early on when they weren’t all that demanding.
I have since had a complete change of heart.
I think what you get out of it (if anything) depends more on the student than the organization (i.e. director, musicians.) My son definitely enjoys the experience much more when he likes the director and, for him, the directors he likes are the ones that are the most engaged with the students as musicians and are passionate about the music themselves. He also cares much more about the music being played than whether the band can play it perfectly. But your child may be completely different from mine and that, I think, is what’s important. If she has fun doing them, fine. If she doesn’t, I wouldn’t worry about it.
So, overall, what he’s gotten out of these experiences are just that, experiences. To be fair, he has made some connections; directors who have since asked him to join smaller ensembles. He has also gotten comfortable with auditions in general. In jazz, having more charts in your repertoire is always a good thing.
Just my 2 cents.
Who, boy, is that a tough question. The ideal youth symphony would have challenging repertoire, a great conductor and high level kids, but it doesn’t often work like that (there are handful of them). I would put weight on the repertoire being tough, even if they don’t play it perfectly, which means the kids are being challenged. Especially if the orchestra is auditioned and is considered to take kids at relatively high levels of playing, playing ‘easy’ rep well may not actually teach the kids much, whereas a youth symphony attempting something like Mahler IV is a stretch even for good players. I personally would go for the orchestra doing tough rep, because usually that means they are trying to stretch the kids and usually means they also are attracting high level kids, most conductors will not challenge kids of modest ability with challenging rep.
That said, I wouldn’t sweat over making ‘the right decision’ here, while experience in an orchestra, in ensemble playing, is very important, I doubt very much that choosing one or the other will be life or death. If she auditions and chooses an orchestra, and finds it isn’t motivating her, then next year, audition at another program. My son belonged to two different youth orchestras, the first one had its limitations but he gained things from it, then got into one of the blockbuster ones, both helped him. About the only damage would be if the kids in the orchestra are really, really low level, that can cause issues with a kids playing IME, it is common for young musicians who haven’t solidified their musical ear to pick up bad habits from kids around them…and you probably will see that if you listen to performances of the orchestra, if it is that low level:).
I am wondering if we live in the same metropolitan area, LOL. We have had experience with a variety of youth orchestras over the years. My child wants to be challenged, musically, and to be with other students who also are serious about music, so our goal is to find a youth orchestra that provides those things. We started with a yo that played simplified arrangements, until our child outgrew that. Next was an orchestra that played “real” music, but not at tempo. Then we moved to orchestras playing “real” and increasingly challenging music, at tempo.
Along the way, we have been fortunate in that the conductors generally have done a very good job of teaching at the students’ level.
I don’t think orchestral experience has any bearing on conservatory admissions. My child wants the musical and social experiences that come with being in an orchestra. That said, our child’s teacher encourages us to find challenging situations so that our child, who wants to attend conservatory, is aware of the level of competition to be encountered, and has to work hard to stay apace of the other students. Better to be the weakest player in your section than to sit comfortably in first chair for years in a row. And my child is much, much happier to have friends who spend their free time comparing the performances of one soloist to another and planning to skip school to catch a matinee concert instead of having to sit in a rehearsal where half of the students are texting and playing games instead of paying attention.
In terms of college (non-conservatory) admissions, my guess is that being concertmaster of the all-state orchestra carries some weight on the student’s application, whereas being concertmaster of that orchestra that plays adapted/simplified music does not. Also: I am not a parent who is in thrall to the “big name” schools, but, for what it’s worth, I have observed a marked difference between the colleges where students in that orchestra that played adapted music enroll and the schools where graduating seniors in that yo that plays very challenging music enroll.
noviceatoller, from other posts you seem to be quite knowledgeable. I’ll just point this out for others reading the thread.
Orchestral experiences are quite different for string vs wind/percussion players. Participation in a good youth orchestra may be especially valuable for non-string players. Orchestral woodwind/brass/percussion players are most often soloists or at most doubling a part - no matter if playing principal or 2nd or 3rd. It takes maturity to be responsible for your own entrance not doubled by anyone else or by a section. Orchestral experience can help develop this self-responsibility. Projecting solo lines or playing within a small group of wind players in the context of the larger orchestra is also a skill that can be developed through a good youth orchestra. A small wind ensemble can also provide this chance for development, but playing in a large band, which is the easiest experience for most high school wind players to obtain, allows players to relax a bit and follow others (as violins often do in a typical orchestra section).
I think your D is an oboist? This one is kind of a hybrid - bands don’t have large oboe sections, so she probably gets good opportunities for personal development and challenge without relying on other section players no matter what large ensembles she participates in.
I should add, one of mine, now a professional violinist and major conservatory graduate with BM and MM was burned out by youth orchestra ( a good one both age and musically appropriate) by the time high school came around. Youth orchestra had begun in grade school as there was no school orchestra option. Even without any orchestra experience (gigs, but no regular full orchestra) for the entire 4 years of high school, no problem being admitted to multiple major conservatories. Also, no problem re-entering the orchestral scene in conservatory, gaining admission to highly selective summer orchestral music festivals, currently plays in professional regional symphony, etc. As others have said, have that cup of chamomile and enjoy it one step at a time. (I do understand and empathize with your concern - I think we’ve all been there. It does work out!)
Thanks. I mostly feel better knowing that others have agonized over this question, too. On the oboe in particular, managing entrances is very critical life experience, since your reed may have (figuratively) left the building if you’re playing a solo after a 96 measure rest!
On the oboe, there’s something to be said for opportunities to be a big fish in a small pond in order to learn to play exposed. Those have tended to arise naturally for her here and there. For the longer haul, though, I agree with @unscripted – I feel like I’ve seen her playing improve the most when she starts the year as not being the best musician in her section, and the higher the focus level of the whole ensemble, the better (this applies to her quintet experiences, especially!)
I think it’s likely different for oboe than for strings. My daughter is a string player and didn’t play in youth orchestras consistently throughout high school for reasons too complicated to go into. She spent a lot more time in chamber music which probably was better for her musical development. Neither of these things had any impact on her conservatory admissions. In terms of conservatory admission, all that really matters is your audition. For woodwinds, what you do in orchestra may be more important. Personally, I got sick of the politics in the strings section at our regional youth orchestras.
@glassharmonica - From what I hear, winds are in no way exempt from politics in YOs. Chamber seems to be considered bit more of a backbone of learning for string players than for winds. Too bad, really, because I think wind players might benefit from a bit more of it, but there are few opportunities, and the coaching is often an afterthought. My daughter has done quite a bit (initially at the encouragement of an extended family member who is a string player – though she enjoys it so much, I can’t see her wanting to give it up), and I do think it has helped her development tremendously. (And she’s lucked into good coaching, too.) Her private teacher feels that orchestra playing is essential, and her chamber program expects participants to also participate in a youth orchestra. So now she just needs to hire a chauffeur. 
Conservatory admissions don’t directly depend on being in a youth orchestra, given that they are based on auditions. However, having orchestra experience, or ensemble of any kind, will help if you go to conservatory and play in orchestras and such, there are kids who get into high level conservatories who have done little to no ensemble work and have problems in orchestra and chamber. Orchestra may be a bit more important for non strings, given that the audition rep for non strings (I believe) often consists of orchestra excerpts, so if they have played the piece it may help. If it came down to being in a youth orchestra or having more time to practice rep, I would take the practice, but youth orchestras and such do have benefit, if not direct.
@musicprnt - on the oboe, there are standard audition excerpts that are essential for an oboe player. Most of these pieces are seldom played in youth orchestras, but auditioning does give a student some exposure to them, and to excerpt preparation. Wind players typically spend less time on each piece than string players do, so the benefit of YO is not so much a matter of exposure to repertoire as development of skills. One indispensable skill for oboists that would be difficult to learn without playing in ensembles is the qualitative difference between soli and tutti. I’ve heard high school winds that clearly didn’t understand that sometimes the piano takes over the melody, and that the sound of the soloist has to change when that happens. If I can identify this, surely an audition panel would.
Another development I’ve noticed in my daughter’s excerpt playing is that the more she plays in orchestras, the easier it becomes to hear that she’s hearing the whole orchestra as she’s playing an excerpt. Again, I don’t think she’d learn this from private lessons and school band alone. Chamber playing has been great for her in this regard, but sadly the majority of young wind players don’t have access to chamber playing that’s sophisticated enough to teach this.
And I guess I just answered my own question there about simplified arrangements that sound great versus “real” repertoire. Sigh, the one with simplified repertoire is the closest. So much for that!
@noviceatoller – that’s what I meant. Violinists don’t need to play orchestra excerpts at conservatory admission auditions, but other instrumentalists, such as winds and bass players, do need to play excerpts. So pre-college orchestra may be more important for wind players, from an auditions standpoint. (I’m not saying that there isn’t benefit for everyone playing in ensembles from a music education standpoint, just strictly talking about admissions.) Another idea-- do wind players go to audition coaches? My daughter has an amazing “secret teacher” in her area whom she goes to when she has an orchestral audition. He is a whiz at excerpts (pros go to him before job auditions) and he’s able to coach her in specific excerpts that have helped her win jobs and festival spots. She would never spend lesson time at her conservatory on excerpts (there is too much else to work on and talk about) but having this fabulous excerpt coach has been incredibly helpful to her. (She began studying with him in pre-college and is now in an MM program.)
Glassharmonica, I want to apologize to you before posting this, but I know how moms and dads can worry that they aren’t providing enough help for their kids - and thus worry when “secret teachers” aren’t available to magically prepare their kids for auditions. I know you didn’t intend to suggest this, it’s just how I would have read your comments before my kids left conservatory and hit the real world of professional music. (and I’m quite certain that I know who the “secret teacher” is that you reference, he’s in Manhattan)
This comment is also very violin specific. I believe wind and percussion players frequently study orchestral excerpts as a matter of course in their lessons - violins and other strings, this is not as common.
My kids made it through job auditions and festival auditions as did their violin and string friends and acquaintances without special coaching from outside their conservatories. Several close violin friends have been employed by full time professional orchestras, all without benefit of coaches other than what they encountered naturally in the course of their conservatory training. Many teachers, even at conservatories, will spend time on audition excerpts, within reason. (Glassharmonica, I agree that there is too much to do and too little lesson time - I never would have encouraged my kids to spend much time on excerpts in lessons, but their teachers were glad to “check and comment” during festival audition time or before job auditions.) Also, schools - conservatories and good college programs - generally have orchestral excerpt classes where a work or two is covered in depth along with general audition and orchestral playing pointers. Sometimes required for the degree. My kids were offered extra help from the orchestra director at the conservatory and from the orchestra rep teacher (major symphony player) if they asked.
One of my kids related a discussion he over-heard at an audition for a major symphony. The auditioners were comparing who they had “coached with” for this audition. My kid was worried until realizing that these other auditioners had not come from major conservatories and did not have the kind of education, background and training that might be expected. Guess who moved on to the next round. The conservatory background, even without “special coaching” was sufficient.
I don’t mean to suggest that excerpt coaching is not valuable, it can be. I’m sure this is especially true if the student is not a major school or is with a teacher who is not used to working on excerpts. Having any knowledgeable (that word is important) musician who knows the audition repertoire listen and give feedback can be helpful - or it can be confusing if two conceptions, both acceptable, are at odds. My only point, in the end, there truly is no magic bullet or formula for winning auditions. (not that you suggested this, GH, but I know I would have read it that way 15 years ago before completing this violin education and employment process!)
Sounds like your kids did very well, Momofadult. Congratulations! I think I did imply that my comment was specific to violins, but apologies if I were unclear.
I also would point out that (in the strings world) it can make a difference who you’re studying with, even in a major conservatory. My daughter’s teachers have been primarily soloists and chamber musicians without much to say about orchestra excerpts. If she’d been studying with an orchestral player, as many in her conservatory do, she would have gone to her teacher for help. Hence, she has gone to the person (whom you apparently know–it’s not a huge secret, as he’s been profiled in music magazines, etc.) for excerpt help when she has been able to.
Also, I put “secret” in quotes as a form of irony, not to suggest anything underhanded. She’s perfectly upfront with her conservatory teachers that she goes to X for excerpt advice (which amounts to about one session a semester. Not “magical” preparation, but specific advice on specific excerpts.
There’s a lot to balance in lessons with oboe, too. Some years, etudes get set aside for excerpts, which annoys my daughter (who considers Barret an essential food group). Life is a little easier this season, since there begins to be overlap and repetition.
One of the YOs she’s auditioning for only asks winds for excerpts, not a solo, which may be smart. Audition committees surely can’t keep track of all the elements that make one piece more difficult than another on every wind instrument. Some of what seems most impressive is not always what’s most difficult, and state rating systems for difficulty of solos is not all that accurate.
@glassharmonica - Some of the conservatories don’t ask oboists for excerpts (I believe I looked at Curtis and they don’t), but not having played in orchestras would still have to hurt an auditioning student. There’s a refinement that’s difficult for a wind player to get any other way.
I haven’t thought about an excerpt coach, and I doubt it’s common practice. Last year I did get her an appointment with a voice coach to talk about how to walk into an audition room confidently and set up with posture that will optimize her playing.