How did your high school kids balance school and music?

College Majors Music Major
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<p>My daughter is a good student and in the top 10% of her high school class. She is a sophomore taking AP Euro, honors chem, honors French, and advanced math. </p>

<p>She is also a decent violinist. She is concertmistress of the school orchestra in a school well known for its music programs (recognized in the top 100 school districts nationally for music). She plays in the regional youth orchestra, and advanced Suzuki Strings ensemble and has been taking lessons privately since age 5. She has gone to a Suzuki institute or summer music camp since she's been 10. She also plays in an quartet which has played for several weddings and receptions and gets paid for it. This summer she is going to a 4 week music camp which will hopefully give her an idea of what college will hold for her. </p>

<p>She is considering going to college for music education. Not naturally a performer, she does have potential. She took a master class recently with a college instructor who said she has potential in performance and can overcome her reserved nature. She's not definite on pursuing music but feels this is what she does best. None of the other subjects in school have ignited a passion in her. </p>

<p>Her problem is trying to get in enough practice time without sacrificing her grades. She is having a major melt down over her AP Euro exam next week. After having taken a diagnostic test and receiving a 2 has decided not to study. She says it isn't worth her time. She doesn't like history. </p>

<p>Right now on a good day, she practices about an hour. This month she has two auditions - one for All State and another for the youth orchestra. She also has a recital and two concerts. </p>

<p>Should she drop the difficult classes and focus on her music? Getting out of the AP/honors track will give her a more relaxed schedule, although she'll be with kids who don't care about doing well in school. </p>

<p>Does she have a chance at getting into a music program? She states she doesn't want to go to a conservatory. I personally feel a liberal arts education is important but want what's best for my daughter. Any ideas for college?
I'm asking a lot of questions but anyone who has traveled this path who has advice to offer, please share it. TIA</p>

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<p>Suzukimomto2:</p>

<p>Wow! I hear you loud and clear. My son’s story is not exactly the same as your daughter’s, but they are similar enough! Since we’re going through some of the same things, I can’t advise you based on experience. With one exception: the dreaded AP Euro test!!!</p>

<p>My older son is a sophomore at an Ivy League school, to which he was admitted Early Decision. He had all of the honors, high test scores, ECs, etc. that one would expect for such a student. He is also doing extremely well academically at college. Soooo… you would expect him to have flown through the AP Euro test, right? No. Before the test, he was convinced he would fail. After the test, he thought he had bombed. He got a 3 and was relieved.</p>

<p>In retrospect, the AP Euro test was 100% irrelevant. First of all, because it’s so hard and (from what I hear) really inappropriate for sophomores, even the best students can and often do poorly. My son took 11 or so AP courses altogether and, if memory serves, he got 5’s on all of the other tests (maybe one 4). Second, while APs are great if one’s college gives credit, the possibilty of some credit is not worth the stress, I think. Third, in my son’s case, students were required to take the AP exam to get high school credit for the course but their scores did not affect their grades in the course.</p>

<p>So, I’ve told my younger son (the musician) not to sweat this one. Do his best, of course, as in all things, but keep doing whatever else he is doing in his day-to-day life. Moreover, if he follows his dream to study music performance, this test isn’t going to mean anything. And, if he ends up doing something other than music (how could that ever be?? :slight_smile: ), this test won’t matter much, either.</p>

<p>So tell your daughter to relax. Good luck to you both.</p>

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<p>The answer to this is highly dependent on the specific programs that she wants to consider. If she wants to go to a university that has a good music and/or music ed department, she will probably have to be accepted both academically and musically. Depending on which particular schools she is shooting for, the musical and academic standards can vary considerably. At this point, she should be researching some college programs to see what might interest her. If she plays well and has decent but not stellar academic stats, there will be perfectly fine schools to which she can apply for music ed. Certain schools (places like University of Michigan and Northwestern University come to mind) have pretty high requirements for both. She need not be in all AP classes for admission to most music ed programs, but there are a few out there where that would be a plus. She does need to maintain a decent level of performance however. The concertmistress position is nice, but may not tell you much unless there are some other pretty good violinists there. If the youth symphony is a good one, her standing there may be a little more indicative of her level relative to the kids who will be competing with her for places in college. </p>

<p>Anyone who is considering a career in music education should first and foremost ask themselves whether they really want a career teaching young children. If that prospect interests your daughter, then she is on the right track. If she is looking at it as a plan B in case a performance career does not work out, there are a lot of bitter people in that position already who have jobs that they cannot stand.</p>

<p>If she did want to audition as a performance major at a competitive program, chances are she is going to have to practice a lot more. Most students in that position would probably consider 2 hours of practice an off day, particularly for strings and even more so for violin. At some schools, the musical standards are a little lower for music ed applicants, but I would guess that even there most applicants would be putting in more practice time than an hour on a good day. Of course, some students need more practice time than others, so it is impossible to be certain without knowing your daughter’s playing. Is her private teacher satisfied with the amount that she rehearses? Has she been progressing rapidly recently, or is has she hit a plateau? How long has she been with the current teacher? Sometimes changing teachers toward the end of sophomore year helps a player get to the next level needed for admission to one of the better programs. It really helps to have a teacher who frequently produces college music/music ed majors from their studio. Teachers who do not regularly have students applying to auditioned programs are often unaware of what it takes to be accepted these days.</p>

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<p>yep… It’s crazy </p>

<p>Sounds like she is at that great time in her life, where she is defining who she is and what she wants.</p>

<p>The music education track is about education and so AP’s become more important than if she was considering being a performer, but she will have to define what works for her. Even the very top schools will be happy with 5 good AP’s / high GPA / top ? % / high SAT + SAT II / and a talent. But your D may be just as happy at a good school instead of a top school. </p>

<p>“Does she have a chance at getting into a music program?” Why not, if that is truly where her passion is… </p>

<p>“Although she’ll be with kids who don’t care about doing well in school.” - never, never, a good idea…</p>

<p>Now might be a good time to start taking her to some different colleges and let her see if she finds a place that fits her well, and let her see what it takes to get into that school. Too many kids find out too late what they want from college and life.</p>

<p>My S did it all, and I mean everything, and now is going on to the liberal arts school he really wanted to go to. Has a couple more concerts and then is going to only sing when and with who he wants to. Several of his very talented friends didn’t pay attention to AP’s and as their interest changes had to stay with music or settle for schools that were less than what they hoped for.</p>

<p>Any ideas for college? - Too many ideas until your D starts to focus in on what she wants.</p>

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<p>Suzukimomto2, I don’t really have any advice but we are going through the same thing. We do not have AP Euro at our school, but many sophomores do take an AP science and they are spending HOURS in these classes. I think you just have to know your child. Ours is an excellent student but a more methodical learner. She can’t get by at all on less than 7 hours of sleep. We will be limiting her to 2 AP’s in her junior year so she can continue her busy music schedule. Even if she ultimately never goes into music this is what is making her happy right now. I keep trying to tell myself that 20 years from now, none of this high school angst will matter. “There are many pathways to success”. There are TONS of music education programs out there. I’m sure many of them will be thrilled to have your daughter!</p>

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<p>Late Freshman, or early Sophomore year is when my son announced that he was “going to music school”. Although very gifted mathematically, the child whom we thought when younger was destined for a school like MIT, began talking about schools like Eastman, which we had never even heard of at the time. It changed the entire focus of his high school career, so that there was significantly more time for practice and music classes, and less time (and considerably less interest) in AP classes.</p>

<p>He only took four APs through high school (which yielded 15 college credits, so I considered them very worthwhile), and by senior year had four HS music classes/ensembles and had dropped foreign language and history altogether. He was also enrolled in a pre-college certificate program all day Saturday. 99% of his time was spent on lessons, practice, ensembles, classes, or some music related activity. He was still a NMS and graduated with a 3.8, but did not have enough AP classes (except in Science and Math) that would have been competitive for an Ivy League school, which was fine, because he didn’t want to go to one anyway!</p>

<p>It isn’t at all what we expected or had planned for this child, but it turned out, he had plans of his own. There are students on the music board (several this year, in fact!), who managed to practice and play their instruments at an exceptionally high level, and were also exceptional students, and were admitted to Ivy League schools. So, it clearly can be done. But I think, as in our experience, that there is some sort of a fork in the road in high school, where music, practicing and so forth takes precedence. I learned that the “best laid plans” (devised by parents) are sometimes for naught, and to allow things to unfold in ways that are the best for the student. I always say the process isn’t for the faint of heart, and that means the parents too!</p>

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<p>Suzukimomto2: I understand your plight and agree with much of what’s been said here – it really depends on what university your child is planning on attending. My daughter did not take that many AP classes – just English, AP Music Theory, and one U.S. history course. She got through one semester of World History and because of the quality of instruction and random difficulty of the course, I pulled her out three weeks into the second semester. To get her out, I had to fight tooth and nail with the faculty who threatened that if they “allowed” her to drop AP history “no university in America would accept her.” I called all the schools she was thinking of applying to and asked them if this was the case and guess what they said – a resounding no. Nevertheless, I had to escalate the issue to the vice principal (and would have gone to the area superintendent if I had to). My daughter was suffering mightily, she became sick four times in two months, and her other grades in junior year 2nd semester were going south rapidly. Fortunately, the administration let her transfer into honors history. Here’s what happened. Some American schools did happen to admit her. My daughter got into all of the schools she applied to (except Northwestern) including Indiana University, Miami U (of Florida), University of N. Texas, Maryland University (very rigorous standards), McGill University, and Westminster CC. She was accepted automatically (without application) into academic honors programs at MD, IU, and WCC. She received an academic scholarship at IU and generous music scholarship from all of these schools except McGill. Granted – none of these schoools are Harvard and Yale (except McGill), but almost all can be counted among desirable music schools to get into. My daughter did have an exceptional history of extracurricular activities (inside and outside school) which may be have helped her, and her weighted GPA was 4.1. Also she goes to school in one of the most highly ranked high schools in the U.S. In the case of her not getting accepted at Northwestern – we will never know – she was sick with a stomoch flu the day she auditioned at NU. </p>

<p>SuzukiMomto2, this should give you a pretty good feel for whether lots of AP classes are necessary to get into respected but “2nd tier schools” at least.</p>

<p>I’ve been looking for an opportunity to rant about AP classes for a long time. So please indulge me. I am not particularly fond of AP classes – I think they’re a lot of hype and I think they do a poor job simulating a real life college experience and have zilch nada, zero to do with real life experience. Except in AP English classes, very little writing was required in any of my daughter’s AP classes. I think too much pressure is placed on too many kids to take too many AP classes. I think it’s a scam for the school and for Princeton?? because whoever designs the classes makes money and the schools get ranked by the number of students who pass AP exams which in my opinion has NOTHING to do with measuring the quality of education and has everything to do with the level of pressure placed on kids to take exams. Based on our experience, AP classes can detract significantly from the time and focus musicians need to practice and participate in music type activities. In the case of my daughter, she barely had time to practice her music, at all because of the AP classes she took. Fortunately, for voice students, not that much practice is required. But I know that is not the case for students studying other instruments. Junior year, my daughter basically had to quarantine herself off from all social activity to keep her head above water. This is not what I wanted for my daughter. And I don’t believe it contributed to her overall education. Afterall, according to studies I have read, the most important factor in determining student success in real life is not AP tests or grades, but ability to interact and work well with people. I’ll get off my soapbox, now. Thank you for the indulgence.</p>

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<p>It’s really a blend, at least it was in our experience. Son was the type that could read, retain info (to the point of photographic memory recollection), and never seemed to need time to study, and had decent grades and stats that put him in the top 10% of his hs class.</p>

<p>But it was clear he was headed to music, and his time was centered around that. A youth orchestra, the high school orchestra (plus spring pit), three separate string quartets, and associated lessons and coachings didn’t leave much time for anything else.</p>

<p>He did manage 5 or 6 AP’s, concentrated in history, poly sci and french. The corresponding 5’s all yielded college credit and enabled him to fullfill a couple of general degree requirements. His only AP science was physics, and he was never much of a math or science nerd to begin with. He did manage some academic EC’s, based on his interest in history, and did take some time off music to do a couple of model UN, history competition programs, much to the chagrin of his chamber coach. </p>

<p>One point to note is that music ed admissions are more academically weighted than pure performance admits, so care must be taken to balance the coursework (and grades) with instrumental competitiveness. At the top programs there are many performance grade candidates doing the music ed route, so competition will be tough especially on violin, flute which are typically overrepresented.</p>

<p>Also, consider the curriculum mandates of college music ed programs. Just as a 5 on AP music theory will not get a music student out of an initial level theory course, a 5 on US history, english, a math or science course will not get a music ed student out of these courses, which most states mandate as an educational requirement for teacher certification. While the 5 may allow credit to be achieved towards total degree requirements (and thus free up some schedule space for another academic or music course), the music ed student still must take the mandated college course(s) to fulfill degree requirements.</p>

<p>The AP’s are best taken by music students that are in general academically talented and motivated and have a strong interest and proclivity in particular subject areas. If a student is going to struggle through AP Euro or AP chem, yield poor test results, and have to take time away from music practice (and eventually audition prep) it may make sense to instead take the lower level hs course equivalent. As long as it provides a solid background for college level coursework, you might want to go that route to ease pressure.</p>

<p>He graduated summa cum laude with his BM, no issues with the mandated academics and general degree requirements.</p>

<p>Some kids seem to be able to handle it all, some to need to back off and concentrate on specific areas. The trick is know your kid, and their musical and academic strengths and talents.</p>

<p>Just my $.02 based on our particular experiences.</p>

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<p>My fellow posters have done a great job here, OP. I have but one offering of elaboration to vdad’s post: Left to her devices, what does your daughter spend the most time on? For example, with a wide open day, would she play for her own pleasure, spend a few hours nailing down a technical aspect that’s eluding her, or read a good book? If she’s naturally reserved about her performance ability, is it possible that she’s shy about competing at the performance level? Or is there some form of “creative resistance” going on re: balancing homework and playing? I know that with my own son, he began to self-select in his field in junior year…meaning while he maintained a sufficiently rigorous course load, there were a few “time-eater” APs he did NOT take in order to be able to balance his time and take outside college music opportunities (in recording, keyboard, music tech, etc.) and still perform jazz on the side. Maybe if she’s a little reserved, she just needs and sense of “permission” from you to select her courses with a view to her ultimate enjoyment and utility rather than what she thinks is expected of one able to manage a high-degree of rigor. (Sometimes GCs don’t get that just because a kid CAN take everything at advanced level doesn’t mean they should. Some GCs don’t take music as seriously as a vocational opportunity either…) In other words, have her pick and choose her honors/AP level courses according to interest level and with an eye to achieving the balance that most closely reflects how she might actually spend her time were it free. One does not need to take AP history to take AP Comp, for example. And I am of the mind that while AP is valuable where a school isn’t particularly rigorous in the comprehensive stream, as well as from a fiscal standpoint in SOME circumstances, many of those courses are indeed worth taking FROM a university prof/University setting instead of HS. A student with many outside commitments, whether musical, theatrical, etc., might be happier limiting the number of advanced courses in the schedule to 2 or 3 per term.
In summation, have her start making an inquiry/visioning as to how she wants to use her time/life. That goes hand in hand with the college discovery process upon which she is about to embark.
Cheers,
K</p>

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<p>We are in the same place! Although my daughter is a junior, I have had some of the very same questions and reservations about her schedule next year. This year she took 3 AP classes, AP calc, AP US History and AP music Theory (online). In the last week, she has been strssed to her very limit getting ready for the exams, preparing for a masterclass, preparing for her juries, and practicing for a competition in June. We have had tears, outbursts…you name it…typical teenage angst! She wants to be accepted at several top conservatory or university programs next year. Sp, for her practice is going to be very important. This led us to the decision to pull her from some APs for next year. She will only be taking AP English and AP Stats, not AP Euro, AP Bio, or AP Calc BC. This was a really hard thing for me. I have always been pro-academics…take the hardest classes…do your best. But, honestly she needs time to practice and that time has to come from somewhere.</p>

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<p>

Agree wholeheartedly with this. It broke my soccer coach DH’s heart when he had to finally admit that our very talented soccer player daughter spent all of her time singing whenever she could. Studying the songs, researching the songs, going over them on the keyboard and even singing at soccer. She never had a soccer ball unless it was at practice or a game. And while she was an excellent student and thought she wanted to go into marine biology, she never really devoted the time to those pursuits like she did music. When she made the commitment to music, and we allowed her to, it was like a light shining.</p>

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<p>Key of H: thanks for your “rant” about AP classes. My thoughts EXACTLY! Including the problems fighting with counselors about not taking them. Kmccrindle: Yes, many of these courses are better taken in college. Sadly, at my D’s school, they got rid of nearly every Honors class, and replaced them with AP. We did find it best to limit advanced classes to 2 per term (though, with my D’s “4 by 4” plan, which means you take an entire year course in one semester, that’s really the equivalent of 4 classes). Still, one term she had an unscheduled period during the day, which she used for practice time. She has found that, even with our attempts to limit the advanced classes, she can’t get in enough practice time. As a singer, that’s not too bad, but in trying to keep up with her piano practice, it really hasn’t been enough. For most instrumental majors, students need to practice at least 3 hours per day.
Good suggestion from kmccrindle–what does your D do in her spare time? For us, we knew she was getting more serious when she’d walk in the door and go directly to the piano–regardless of how much homework was due the next day. Or, go to her room to sing and/or listen to Renee Fleming. She manages to finish the homework most of the time. She won’t have the grades for the Ivy’s, but she’ll be fine for most of the schools she plans to apply to.</p>

<p>Good luck, and enjoy the music.</p>

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<p>…on the other hand, my daughter (senior about to graduate) was unable to ever let go of her need to be in the most competitive, academically ambitious classes available, and to do her utmost to get A’s and score 5’s in them. She complained bitterly about not having enough time to practice (would have liked 2 hrs/day, almost never had that much time available consistently) but could not make herself give up on being tops in academics. </p>

<p>Your daughter really has to make her own choice, although perhaps not all at once. Is she more prepared to give up on expanding practice time, or to give up on must-get-a-5 on all AP’s? You can’t expect her to know for a certainty right now whether she WILL become a performing musician, or a music educator, or something else…I think that would be a lot for a 16-year old to know!</p>

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<p>Key of H, I’ll take your soapbox now, thank you!
Our school prides itself on the number of students taking AP classes and tests. Since students were opting out of taking the tests if they felt unprepared, the school now denies AP weighting if you don’t take the test! And this is all about the kids…really? I think this is more about the current insanity of measuring all (students, teachers, schools, taxes) based on test scores, which is slowly killing the educational system, and making it less likely that teachers will be able to teach to individual learning styles. In the 4 years between my two children, I watched an outstanding elementary school curriculum deteriorate into one that emphasized memorization of facts and figures because the the 4th and 8th grade proficiency tests required by the state - the more Advance Proficient kids you had, the better your state report card! </p>

<p>(soap box handoff to next incensed parent)</p>

<p>My older kid went through on the “all AP track” in conjunction with intense athletic training. It worked for her because she is a child of incredible determination and boundless energy. We chose to do it differently for D2. She is only taking AP Theory and AP French with the rest of her classes being a mix of honors and CP. This gives her time to participate in Theater, music theater, All State and some youth opera. She’ll be applying as a VP major (currently a Junior). Hopefully this strategy will balance out the stress of trying to keep up with her classes while preparing for auditions. While this strategy may eliminate some universities from her search, I’m not sure she’d have been happy at those anyway. I’ll let you know a year from know if this worked out!</p>

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<p>In the ultimate conflict of interest, College Board publishes a ranking that lists the percentage of seniors who take AP exams. The state in which I live, Maryland, ranked #1 in seniors taking the exams, to which I said, big deal! I guess they’ll start telling kids they can’t take the exams until senior year. I’m no College Board fan and hated paying them a penny for anything. I don’t know how parents let the AP thing get so out of hand, but generally, the schools and the parents bought into the hype and a monster was created.</p>

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<p>Totally agree that AP madness is just ridiculous. If a kid can handle the material and pressure easily, more power to him. If it’s creating stress and sucking the life out of the things he really loves to do, they are just not that important. I’ve been mother to both types of kid. It would KILL the less academically gifted ones to struggle with multiple AP’s. Not everyone can learn information in the AP format at the age of 14 or 15. And we shouldn’t feel bad about that.</p>

<p>Becoming serious about music means a shift toward a very time-consuming and worthwhile pursuit. If you have a kid who is driven to do it, you will know it, and probably find a way to make his schedule as music-intensive as he wants it to be. And that usually involves a trade-off, though there are some kids who do it all. Hopefully at not too great a cost.</p>

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<p>My son was in an IB program which is like AP on steriods. He settled for decent, not top grades, practised 3 hrs/day on most days and did a Saturday prep program all day. By the end of senior year he was completely exhausted. I think it was too much. One day, when he has perspective, I’ll find out if he agrees. As stated by others above, there are some kids who can do it all - he’s not one of them. He’s very happy now to be in music school with absolutely no academic requirements outside (they transferred 32 cr. hrs. for his IB and AP work). He practises/plays 5-8 hrs/day, but says it doesn’t feel like working. I think getting through HS is like running a gauntlet for instrumentalists.</p>

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<p>Regarding what will seem important years from now: Regardless of what profession a person has, we don’t usually come across people who tell us, “Gosh, I wish I had taken APCalculus in high school. My life would be so much happier now.” But, how often have you heard, “I really wish I would have kept dancing, playing piano, sung in the choir, played in the school orchestra…” Community orchestras, choirs, etc., are full of wonderful musicians who have other careers. Most of those careers can be achieved without totally sacrificing involvement with music. So, if your child is really interested in music, I say encourage that–it will help him/her no matter what the career choice. If they decide to pursue music as a career, the focus now is essential. If they decide on another career, then at least they will have had the pleasure and the discipline of music making, and at some point later in life they will enjoy playing music as a hobby.</p>

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<p>[leaps to top of soapbox]
Some AP classes, in our experience, have been wonderful, but that’s been due to the teacher. Mostly, they seem to involve a lot of teaching to the test and busy work that has benefitted none of my children, all with their own unique learning strategies. </p>

<p>What D3 chose to do this year (jr) was take our school’s newly offered Honors level History and English classes rather than the combined AP class that top level students have traditionally taken. She finds that her classmates for those two periods are other high level kids who also have strong outside interests - there’s a girl who plays for an international soccer team, a serious baseball player, a couple of musicians, etc - kids who are smart enough for the AP class but are trying to balance what they hope will eventually be their life work with the demands of school.</p>

<p>I hope other schools pick up on this model because it seems to be working well. </p>

<p>[soapbox now available]</p>

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<p>Thank you all for your perspectives! It has been a great help and I think my daughter and I will have a heart to heart talk very soon - that is if it doesn’t stress her out to take time out from studying for AP Euro. :slight_smile: </p>

<p>I particularly want to ask her what she would do on a wide open day. Honestly, when she does have a free day - say during school vacation, her practice time doesn’t increase significiantly. </p>

<p>When we’ve talked about other kids we’ve heard about practicing several hours a day, my daughter says she doesn’t have enough material to practice that long.</p>

<p>Her teacher does have a lot of experience (over 35 years!) and has had several kids go on to conservatories and music programs including Julliard Eastman and Indiana University. I trust her wisdom and do need to talk to her more extensively about dd’s future. </p>

<p>I love this forum - everyone has been so helpful. Hopefully someday I’ll be able to return the favor.</p>