@vocal1046 - I agree 100% with your post. Artists are a different breed and creativity, imagination and intelligence are critical factors in their success.
My D (the MT kid) has similarly had a blend of training and performance. She has had voice and dance lessons, acting workshops and scene study with private teachers (though no specific audition coaching). She has performed in both school sponsored shows and outside opportunities in lead roles, small parts and plenty of ensemble work. She never felt that doing any of those shows were a waste. She learned from all of them. Even the ensemble roles. What you learn from any situation has much to do with your mindset. Performers, sports or otherwise, really do need a blend of technique or skill practice and real performance, in whatever shape that takes. But, they also have to learn to love the process as well as the product because they will likely spend far more time in rehearsal, or readings, or auditions than they will performing.
I think Vocal makes good points that we can all agree with, but I’m puzzled by the idea that there’s a choice between rich and varied reading/exploring different interesting subjects vs. artistic training. I mean, my daughter studies lots of different topics at school and through her homework, reads a lot for both pleasure and interest, and has interest in social issues. But it’s never been a choice between “do I want to read a book about history, or take singing lessons?” I’m not really seeing how one excludes the other?
I’m also puzzled by the idea that training is “soulless.” My daughter’s acting class is Meisner-based, and it’s all about being free to feel whatever emotions come to you in the moment and reacting truthfully, without self-censorship. It’s kind of the OPPOSITE of soulless, actually. Likewise, analyzing and breaking down scripts is about asking “What does this character want?”, exploring the character, very similar to analyzing novels in English class.
I guess I just don’t see artistic training as “soulless”, nor do I see it as competing in any way with studying psychology or history or any other subject. All of a students’ studies and pursuits should complement each other. But I do agree with Vocal that actors/performers should be well-rounded and interested in lots of aspects of life and humanity and society, not just the narrow field of performing.
Toowonderful - Your point of view misses the boat. The students who end up at Major Division-1 Schools for Major Sports (Football, Basketball, baseball, etc.) and/or turn professional are students who do have TOP coaches. In the football factory schools the coaches are hired to coach - and then they might teach something on the side. That is a school that prides itself on that program. A school that prides itself on the arts does the same thing with their theatre program. There is a difference between playing a sport/doing an art activity for fun and doing it to try and become a professional at it. Yes - there are great HS coaches who topped out their own careers playing in high school, but RARELY do you see professionals come out of those programs. When Randy Moss is your High School Football Coach your odds of becoming a professional football player are astronomically higher than the kid with the social studies teacher as his coach.
As far as the idea of training vs. performing - I 100% think both sides are wrong. You CAN NOT become a good performer without getting on stage and actually performing. I think students need to be in multiple productions, each year, to grow as a performer - there are things that you can’t learn on stage. You also need to put in the classroom time, and a lot of it, because technique (especially in singing and dancing) are essential to being a skilled performer. Technique is hard to learn on the fly, on stage.
Also - watching rehearsal is NOT a waste of time. One of the greatest directors I know, Matthew Earnest, encourages his casts to be at rehearsal regardless of whether they are “needed”. You can learn a ton by watching other actors perform. It can’t be your ONLY source of education, but it is a worthwhile exercise.
I said “Single-minded focus on technique for the purpose of auditions…is a soulless endeavor.” An actor with a higher, broader, deeper goal will always be more interesting and a greater asset in rehearsal than one whose brain is occupied by sizing up the competition, scrutinizing cast lists, developing theories about why they are not being cast and so on. “Good enough” in one context will be ‘not good enough’ in others; what soars in high school may crash in college; and college hierarchies will mean nothing in the world of work.
Time on-stage watching others mark a scene, or helping to set light cues, to allow the DP to practice camera moves, all of this is part of an adult actor’s life. The world seldom revolves around you, kid. You learn to play your part in the process. If you think any of the time you are in rehearsal but not performing is ‘wasted’ then you need to reframe your sense of how an actor prepares.
I spent nearly a decade doing five plays a year as a member of a regional repertory company. Most often I was in both the show that was in performance and the one in rehearsal. If I was only performing I often went to the theater to watch the director and the other actors rehearse - especially if there was Shakespeare afoot. And yes, the artistic director of that company, when he was directing a show, would need all actors in all rehearsals all the time. A nightmare for the SM but great for collaborative artists.
The questions to ask about your child at this point are, "Is she learning? Is he maintaining his engagement in learning in non-theatrical areas? Does she have protected time to stare into space and dream? Is he the one setting his own course in life? Is she managing her own mistakes? Am I staying at arm’s length, available but not leading? Let go of “Is she good enough? Is she getting cast fairly?” and so on. None of that is your row to hoe.
My son’s "higher, broader, deeper goal in HS was getting over his fear of girls. He failed but is apparently making up for it in college. My daughter’s may have been more along the lines of trying to get equally dorky and inexperienced HS boys over their fear of her. I’m not sure if it proved to be a rehearsal asset but I’m sure it was fun.
@theaterhiringco- I think you are missing MY point. You are 100% right that there are schools (private or public) which are known to develop strong athletes. If a parent (or a kid) has the goal at a young age that they want to be D1 or professional, they might want to get the kid to that school. Many do - their choice. Or if they stay within the ordinary public school system they supplement with outside sports opportunities- again, their choice. I don’t think (but then I don’t know) if they would be sayings that the person who teaches chemistry (and probably has a masters in the subject- making them an expert in THAT field) but also coaches soccer b/c they loved playing when they were younger, and makes a couple thousand in a supplemental contract- (unless it’s football where they make better $) for a task where they will be working an extra 15-20 hours a week during the season, should be an expert in the field of soccer and prepare their players for D1 schools etc. Why should we have a different expectation for theater, which at many schools is an extra curricular (like sports) not a core department? It seemed to me that earlier posts (not necessarily yours) were complaining about the fact that they NEEDED to go outside for higher level training. My real point is that it is unrealistic to expect a normal public high school to have the resources to prepare kids for top tier BFA schools. If you want more- go get it (community, summer, private training whatever) I sent my kid to a magnet PA school (and moved so I would be in the area where I could do it). When we made that choice I didn’t complain that I had to leave our old district to do it, it wasn’t that they were failing (they do nice shows) but MY kids goals meant she needed more
Point of clarification. I realize that there are kids who get into great bfa’s having never done anything but school performances. But they are the exception, rather than the rule- most Theater kids have other experiences, if for no reason that the fact that most schools only do a couple shows a year!
Know your kid’s school theater department (or community theater for that matter). If rehearsals/tech/design are true learning environments, then I’m all for it. Actors should have a working knowledge of all aspects of mounting a production. But If stage mates come unprepared to do the work, if the director spends large amounts of time yelling at said stage mates, if blocking the first act takes 4/5s of available weeks of rehearsal, then it’s time to find another place to learn.
I’m the OP. The points everyone is making are really helpful. I will definitely take to heart the advice to not be a “diva” mama, or to raise a diva daughter. I have hopefully done well at that so far. I volunteer a ton, and D gets positive comments from the director about her work ethic painting sets and coachability. Unfortunately, the last sentence of Post #46 describes D’s high school program perfectly. The rehearsals are very time consuming and low yield. Her schedule is too full to supplement with outside lessons in dance or acting.
The comparison of drama to football programs is interesting. S played high school football. I ran the boosters, so I got familiar with how the program worked. Each player is kept engaged and challenged right from the beginning of the freshman year. Starters and 2nd&3rd string. There’s no sitting around in practice watching the better kids practice. Skills are always being honed. The less skilled/younger players do ride the bench during games& watch the games in order to learn. But they simply would not know how to play if they were never trained. You cannot learn to play football only by watching others play.
oops, my above post sounds more argumentative than intended. Not sure how to edit it. Totally agree with idea that students can learn a lot from observing other actors in rehearsals. It has just gotten to the point of diminishing returns at Ds school.
I hear you @Cornycollins18. S’s experience - at PA high school no less - was similar. Mostly got lessons in handling frustration - which is useful, but only for so long.
Not to beat a dead horse but, HS athletics and HS theater are, in my experience, completely different animals. I have children in both pursuits. If the HS needs a football coach, it hires a football coach (and doesn’t necessarily simply ask the Chemistry teacher who played HS football to take on the job). Alternatively, if the fall play needs a director, oftentimes (of course not always), the job is offered to a current teacher. Recruiting for those positions is quite different and likely, the compensation is as well. You are more likely to get a mixed bag of experience/talent within the HS drama department than within the athletic department. It’s good to be the squeaky wheel at School.Board meetings when funding levels/staffing decisions are being made!
@artskids- by contract at a public high school (at least in my state), if a teacher wants a supplemental contract, they have priority over an outside person- even if an outside person is better qualified. Also, it might be easier to attract someone with “professional” qualifications (meaning outside training) to the position of head football coach, which in my district pays $12,000 (plus a bonus if you make the post season) rather than run the drama club, the fall play and the musical, which pays $3500 combined. I think schools use teacher b/c there isn’t necessarily someone with better qualifications interested in making $2.35 an hour.
The arts and sports are, as artskids says, completely different at D’s high school. There are a similar # of kids in each program, but 12 football coaches, for example, and 1 drama director with 2-3 teachers assisting. I’m sure this must mean that the budget for sports is much larger than the budget for theater, so that must be part of the explanation for the difference between S’s experience in football (awesome) and D’s experience in drama (not good). There are simply too many kids for the director to be able to engage all of them. We had heard all about the favoritism and seniority going in to the program, but I had hoped, regardless of how D would be cast, that she would get training to improve her skills. The resources and structure to train the kids are not there. However, for students who are only doing drama as a fun extracurricular, it’s a good program.
Interestingly, with the great football coaches, the high school’s team has made it to the post season for something like the last 15 years and has D1 recruits pretty frequently. The drama program has not sent a student to any of the MT programs listed on CC for as far back as I know. This shows what the school board values and what it does not, sadly.
Just wanted to add that there is nothing “diva-ish” about spending one’s time wisely. For MT kids, the clock ticks away. They have only so much time to learn ballet, jazz, tumbling, acting, scene study, dialects, diction, good vocal technique, chase the A, study for the SAT, study for AP exam, campaign for class secretary, chair a club, perform in show choir, jazz ensemble, acapella, dance team, spearhead a novel community service program, learn an instrument (which we are now being told is a “Plus”)-- good grief!. If the local HS is wasting your child’s precious time, don’t give it another thought. Move on!. Time wasting is not limited to HS theatre. Some “professional” theatres do a pretty good job of exploiting the time/money of some kids as well, just in a different manner. You won’t sit around at rehearsals as one does in HS, but hey, those 40 productions where your kid sat backstage for 220 minutes of a 224 minute show…
All of these experiences are valuable. Just not in a quantity that might preclude one from learning other skills. Time IS finite. There are diminishing returns. If someone calls you a Diva because you want your child engaged in more productive endeavors, so be it. Its better than being “that kid” who wasnt accepted to any schools she applied to!
My perspective differs on this point. My D did participate every year in the school musical. There was no drama program/classes. I already mentioned that when she attended, the director of the musicals was not a faculty member, but someone contracted to direct the musical (this person was an Equity actor who had performed on Broadway and on TV and also runs a professional summer theater in our town…which as an aside, he cast my D in one of his professional musicals the summer after she graduated HS, which had a few Broadway people involved). I never really considered the school musical, however, as the place where my D got her training. I considered it a theater performance opportunity. It was good in the sense of something she got to do with her school peers and I think something is gained by being in theater productions. Also, as it is a form of youth theater, one can play roles one likely could not play if in an adult production at that point in one’s life. It wasn’t ideal theater, but my kid enjoyed participating. But that is not really where she got her training.
I think of training and production experience as two facets. Both are valuable. Training for my kid was voice lessons and dance classes. She also attended a summer theater program every summer. We had no drama classes or acting ones in our area. In terms of production experience, she didn’t just participate in school shows, even though I think those have value for what they are. She also was in adult productions in community theater, some of pretty high quality, as well as regional, college and professional theater (all prior to attending college). She was in many youth productions of a high quality at her summer theater camp as well. So school theater was just ONE experience and not the only production experience in her childhood. And it wasn’t where she got trained. I think lessons and classes are more for training and then there is a lot one can learn by being in productions too. It really is not one OR the other. Both are important. I also think being in youth productions (which includes school) is different than being in adult level productions, and I’m grateful my kid did both. In youth productions, you can play some signifiant roles. In adult productions, you may get a higher quality show and learn from being with adults and a level of professionalism, but not always play as big of a role (then again, some adult musicals have kids in very significant roles and my kid did those too). But being in productions, while a learning opportunity, is more the application of skills and training. I think training is needed in ADDITION to being in shows. School is certainly not where my kid got her training! But being in the school shows had value for other reasons.
By the way, our high school currently has a music teacher (not the person who directs the musicals, but does musically direct them) who has a BFA in MT from Ithaca. Her husband, who has a BA in theater, I think, is contracted to direct the musicals, but is not on the regular faculty. This is all after my kids graduated. I think the musicals were better when my kid attended and they had the theater professional who directed the musicals.
@soozievt- sounds like your kids benefitted from a very fortunate situation. And when that sort of thing does happen, it’s amazing. But it’s not the norm for most public schools, and my point is- that doesn’t necessarily mean the school drama program is a bad thing. After all, in most HS, I would guess that the majority of the kids who are in shows AND sports are there b/c it’s a fun activity with friends. Hopefully they learn something, but just being a part of things is the goal. So if your goals are bigger, and the HS program isn’t what you need, go elsewhere. And @tramsmom - I don’t think it’s “diva-ish” to go elsewhere - you are right that time is finite. It’s why I sent my kid to a PA school. But whether or not you choose to participate at your school, don’t trash the HS program- that IS diva-ish. I have seen that happen when some of the PA kids would do their home HS’s shows. Either accept the differences, or stick to a place where you think things are better, but don’t spend the entire length of a show complaining or trashing the production team - it’s petty, and small, and only makes the person doing it look bad.
I’m not saying our school shows were amazing. I’m just saying that they were worth participating in. Not so much for learning’s sake, but for being part of the school shows with friends and so on. But we didn’t rely on these shows as training or even for our kid’s entire production experience, not by a long shot. Most of what she learned was OUTSIDE of school. But it wasn’t an either/or proposition. She did school-related activities and many activities/lessons/shows outside of school. All had value for different reasons. I think most of what she learned was OUTSIDE of school! I don’t think it is necessary to be in school shows. My child enjoyed being a part of them, however. Even in sports, my daughters did some connected with school and some outside of school.
Just to be clear, our HS had NO drama program. No classes, nada. So, they had much less in that way at our school than some of your kids have with drama classes or even performing arts high schools. We did have a very solid music program at our high school though and both my kids were very active in it. Still, my daughters also had private music lessons (two instruments each) outside of school.
Also, there were frustrations even at our high school shows. They rehearse every day for 3 months. There were days my child was not happy when she had given up attending her dance classes, for example (outside of school) to be at the school musical rehearsal and not really be needed and just sit in the auditorium and doing homework. She thought the rehearsal schedule could be more thought out. Also, having done adult and professional productions, not to mention summers at theater camp where she was in high level productions that rehearsed for just 2.5 weeks, it was hard sometimes to put up with the slow pace, as well as some kids who were not focused, etc. Once you have tasted something else, it can be hard to put up with the way school shows can be. Still she had fun being with friends and doing the show and I’m glad she did them.
@toowonderful it is never good form to trash a production, show, or crew, even if it deserves to be trashed. That’s just unprofessional. You follow through with what you start, you keep your mouth shut and do your best, and then you never return. When people ask why you never returned, you think of something vague and kind to say, and change the subject. 