High School Start Times ... Too Early? Any Changes?

Parents Forum
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<p>don’t see obvious references to the Fairfax County Public Schools (fcps.edu) in Virginia. They went through a huge review a couple of years ago. I think the final report was at this time last year.>>></p>

<p>They did online surveys and if I remember right, the students themselves were mostly against it. DD & her friends said that no one would get more sleep. They’d just get a later start on EC’s, sports and homeworks and have to stay up a couple hours later than they do now. So no sleep gain.</p>

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<p>As someone who was raised that way, I feel the need to provide counter-anecdotal evidence. 9:30 by the end of elementary school (it eventually moved back from 8:00) and then I hit middle school and I became an insomniac. Physically, I could not fall asleep until 1 or later. It got worse, then better again, but as a junior in high school, (actual) sleep before 12:30 is a rare feat.</p>

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<p>It may be that typical teenagers can be trained to fall asleep at 9:30 every night, or it may not be. My understanding is that body chemistry at that age makes it difficult for many of them to go to sleep earlier. Anecdotal evidence to the contrary is interesting but not dispositive.</p>

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<p>My school starts at 8:30 AM and ends at 3:40 PM. However, I have to take a half-hour train ride up to school. In addition, my sister has to take an earlier train to get to her middle school. (We both go to arts magnet schools.) So I have to be at the train station at 7. That normally entails waking up around 5:45 to 6 AM. I’ll be home by 5 PM at the earliest. With baseball, I’ll have time to grab a snack before leaving. On practice/game days, I generally won’t have time to start my work until 9 or 10.</p>

<p>I almost enjoy the stress, though. I’m not going crazy due to sleep deprivation yet, so it makes me feel a bit satisfied to know that I can get through a pretty hectic and long day constantly. Plus, I often can do homework during lunch, in a couple of classes, and if needed, on the train.</p>

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<p>limbwalker, </p>

<p>I suppose your D has never had a date then or does this 9pm bedtime only apply to weekdays? In our HS, you and your daughter could never attend weekday school events like games or school plays or concerts. Even our weekday school assemblies (award ceremonies, college meetings, speakers) go beyond 9pm. Perhaps this is a regional thing? Around here, many parents don’t get home from work until 6 or 7pm so school events can’t begin earlier than 7 or more likely 7:30pm (so people can have a quick dinner). </p>

<p>I’m glad your solution works for YOUR family but it seems simplistic and awfully judgemental of you to say 9pm bedtime is the answer for ALL teens and to imply that parents are failing their kids if they don’t institute this rule. You may prefer an early bedtime, but studies show that the majority of teens’ bodyclocks are different from your own. You can force someone to go to bed early, but you can’t force someone to sleep. Perhaps your kids simply have inherited YOUR natural bodyclock. That would explain why your parenting style is successful with them. THey don’t lie in bed feeling resentful as they can’t fall asleep. They don’t feel they’re giving up anything because their body cycle agrees with you. But I can’t see most teens wanting or able to fall asleep at 9pm.</p>

<p>My husband grew up in a similar manner as yours, military style as he says. He used to bang on our kids doors early on Saturday mornings. His body clock is and always has been early, although not 9pm. He definitely prefers to be in bed early (10ish), which really does make for a dull boy (in my opinion) because he is too tired to enjoy evening activities. OTOH, he gets up around 5:30, long before he needs to leave for work (around 7am). </p>

<p>Our HS junior plays 3 sports and has several hours of homework a night (3 AP/4 honors classes this yr). She would have to give all that up (sports, other ECs and challenging academics) to be in bed by 9pm. SHE is not willing to do that. I have had 2 kids in/through college. All 3 kids have struggled with sleep throughout HS due to school/EC demands. But while in college, my oldest handled a relatively early schedule (8/9am classes). Now that she’s older (just graduated), she’s up by 8 on weekends. BUT her sleep schedule has been dictated by the changes to HER bodyclock, not some standard that we as parents have arbitrarily set for her. OTOH, my college junior continues to study late at night and he avoids early classes at all costs. He was one of those kids who fell asleep in HS classes. And yes like yours, all 3 of my kids are A students. I don’t think that is a reflection on their bedtime.</p>

<p>For the OP, our HS buses start around 6:30 I think, depending on where one lives. I grew up in a small town where everyone had a short walk (no buses) to our HS, which began around 8:30. I don’t remember anyone falling asleep in class (unless kids were on drugs or coming down with mono). Here, it’s not uncommon to see kids falling asleep in class or in hallways after school, waiting for ECs to start or on school buses. Parent groups have tried unsuccessfully to switch HS to later times (swap with EL) but MANY parents complained due to childcare issues. Seems like administrators aren’t focusing on what’s best for the majority of teens health, but rather what’s best for the parents, busing/cost issues, sports/coaches. As for sports, my D plays 2 sports with practices directly after school. The 3rd season she has late practices (begin 1 1/4 hrs after school ends) because the coach comes from another HS with a later dismissal time. There hasn’t been a problem with that later start time. My D wishes all sports had later times so she could get an extra hour of sleep in the am.</p>

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<p>My school regularly started at 9:10am. My senior year, I had a scheudle that meant 8:30 starts on MWF and then 10:05 starts at TTh. Regular school got out at 4:10, but I got out at like 1:30 my senior year :stuck_out_tongue: I was barely ever at school.</p>

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<p>This thread is just hilarious. If the worst thing that befalls little Johnny is that he has to get up a little early in the morning to receive a free public education, little Johnny is living a pretty privileged life. </p>

<p>For an 8 a.m. class, Johnny might try going to bed at 10 p.m. and waking up at 6 a.m. That gives him eight hours of sleep. Oh, but apparently that is just not consistent with his “cycle.” I know: let’s have the schools test each student to determine his/her cycle, and then build an individualized curriculum around each and every one of those students. Heck, we can run schools 24 hours a day to accommodate all of those early birds and the night owls!</p>

<p>Give me a break.</p>

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<p>My school starts at 7:55 and goes to 2:40 Mon,Tues,Thurs,Fri and on Wednesday goes from 8:25 to 2:40. Block Schedule so 4 classes a day, 87 minutes long. Works fantastically because we get 8 classes a year without all the stress of an 8 class workload. And I like the late start Wednesdays, good mid-week break.</p>

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<p>It may seem ridiculous to think that HS should center around the needs of teens (who don’t function well at 7am) but consider this. What if we asked adults to switch their typical work day to 6am start time. Around here, the typical adult would have to wake up at 4am, leaving home around 5am to battle traffic. Those commuting to NYC would have to leave home between 4-4:30am. Although some adults might prefer the early start, I’m sure the majority of bleary-eyed adults wouldn’t like it.</p>

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<p>westerndad: No one here has said that it’s “the worst thing to befall” their children. The original post asked us to discuss when we start and end school and what adjustments we wish could be made, and that’s precisely what we’re doing.</p>

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<p>Area public hs starts after 7–I think about 7:30–and they are done by 2:30…</p>

<p>our students go to a priavate and start around and are out close to 4pm…sporst have the kids doen with practices by 6:30–games and other stuff can run much later</p>

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<p>Quote:
“Sorry to rant/brag, but I’ve never found time management to be a problem. I leave the house at 6 AM and get home at 6 PM on an easy day and 8-9 PM when I’m doing theatre. I’m in bed by 10:30 with very few exceptions, and I still do 3-4 hours of work a day. I just get it done on the way to and from school, during homeroom, before rehearsal, etc. I still have time to socialize during the school day and spend time with friends on long weekends and vacations. I get 6.5-7 hours of sleep a night, I don’t feel the need to drink coffee to keep me awake during the day, and I NEVER fall asleep during class. Learn to use your time effectively and efficiently and everything else gets a lot easier.” </p>

<p>6.5-7 hours of sleep a night is really not that great. You may think that you’re some kind of super time management kid, but you’re pretty average among high schoolers. Teens are supposed to have 10 hours of sleep a night, and at least 8 are needed to be considered decent. Most high schoolers get 5-7 hours of sleep from what I’ve heard from my classmates, so you just follow the trend like everyone else.</p>

<p>I would like it if high school started later, but I also am involved in sports, and I can’t imagine how it would work if everything was pushed back.</p>

<p>I think that high schoolers could sleep more if they really tried, but we just get accustomed to sleeping late. I know it’s just how teenage bodies work, but with enough willpower, teens could probably manage to sleep earlier and be healthier. I myself am no exception to sleep deprivation–I also get 7 hours of sleep a night. But if you really push yourself to concentrate on sleeping, you can probably manage to sleep more. At least, that’s what I’m hoping; I don’t want to spend the next few years feeling tired every day.</p>

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<p>Jerz, you put so many words in my mouth that I hardly know where to begin…</p>

<p>1) No, unfortunately my oldest daughter is almost through high school and has never been on a date. If you met her, you would wonder why. I wonder why, but that’s another topic.</p>

<p>“I’m glad your solution works for YOUR family but it seems simplistic and awfully judgemental of you to say 9pm bedtime is the answer for ALL teens and to imply that parents are failing their kids if they don’t institute this rule…” </p>

<p>2) You are reading a lot into what I said. Simplistic? Yes. That’s the beauty of it. Judgemental? Nope. I couldn’t care less what others do. Do whatever you like. I won’t care a lick :wink: . Answer for ALL teens? Hardly. Again, words in my mouth. Failing their kids? Ha, ha. Again, putting words in my mouth. </p>

<p>Not sure why someone can’t share a technique that’s worked well for them - with proven results - without someone taking offense and feeling the need to defend themselves. </p>

<p>3) “military style?” Hardly. Parents today are, in general, pretty soft on their kids. I am BY FAR softer on my kids than my mom was. But this is one rule we’ve held to pretty well and when the kids would (occasionally) complain, I’d bring up their report cards and grades and they would usually concede that they are more alert than their friends in school during the day. And I never said a thing about banging on doors. I’ve NEVER done that. Never had to. My kids all get up on their own and always have. I can not ever remember having to wake my kids up for school. Ever. They get up on their own and are dressed and ready, often before I even get my coffee made. People don’t believe me, but it’s commonplace in this house. I just figure I’m lucky, that’s all.</p>

<p>Sounds to me like maybe your resent the fact that your husband goes to bed early and wakes up early. Talk to your husband about that, not me. You’ll get better results.</p>

<p>“Our HS junior plays 3 sports and has several hours of homework a night (3 AP/4 honors classes this yr)…”</p>

<p>4) That is indeed a very busy schedule. I don’t think I’d advocate such a busy schedule. In fact, this fall my son was in football and band and we talked to him about trimming back. He agreed. I think some kids are way too busy these days. Kids need time to just chill out every now and then and there is nothing wrong with that. </p>

<p>I prefer to see my kids get an extra hour of sleep over playing an extra sport. </p>

<p>“And yes like yours, all 3 of my kids are A students. I don’t think that is a reflection on their bedtime…”</p>

<p>5) Well, there you have it. Folks, I was wrong all along. I need to go apologize to my kids now. </p>

<p>See ya’ :D</p>

<p>John.</p>

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<p>My high school starts at 7 am, ending at 1:53. 4 classes per day on block schedule, for an hour and a half each. Lunch is a half hour. Students often petition to get the HS to start at 9, MS at 8 and Elementaries at 7, but administrators claim that this way HS kids can have a part time job and manage homework.</p>

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<p>My high school, (I am a teacher and daughter is a student) starts at 7:15 am. Even though studies show high school students perform better with later start times and that elementary students do better with earlier start times, our district tried it one year but the elementary parents complained about leaving their children at the bus stop early in the morning. Personally, I am sick of public schools having to be the community babysitter, but we as a society have allowed that to happen and so even though we can make changes that will benefit our children, we choose not to because of “babysitting” obligations.</p>

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<p>Wow Limbwalker, I think you read into my response. The comment about your DD was simply to point out that it wouldn’t be possible for her or ANY teen to date with a 9pm bedtime. </p>

<p>As for the rest - “military style” and “banging on doors”, I was referring to my husband, not you. He lived with his grandfather, a military man. He woke the kids with the old “rise and shine” early in the morning - not to be mean but because he hated to see them waste the day. Only when he came to realize they “needed” to sleep in at that stage in life did he back off. When our kids were small, they were up at 6am and would announce they wanted to go to bed if they got tired before their 8pm bedtime. So, my husband was naturally confused when suddenly their body chemistry or bodyclock or whatever we want to call changed. In HS, our oldest DD began staying up late because she had hours of homework to complete after her ECs. Luckily she was alert and functioned well late at night. But unlike when she was younger, she had trouble waking up early. Like so many other teens, she didn’t cope as well at 7am as she did when she was younger. My husband didn’t notice the change at first and thought she was just being obstinate. He eventually came to see she simply had different needs at this stage. Granted, we could have forbidden her to do the ECs or take the AP classes, but we tend to allow our children to make those decisions for themselves - especially by 17/18. Unfortunately our HS starts early (unlike some here posting about 8-9 start times) so our kids didn’t get enough sleep during those years. That was their choice since they chose to handle a difficult schedule. </p>

<p>I actually understand your point of saying your kids function better with all the sleep they are getting. I AGREE. I wish our HS started a hr or more later. I don’t think an hour delay would impact the ECs, sports or teen job situation. I believe it would help all students to have that extra hr of sleep. But our community opposes the change. This thread was started to obtain info about HS start times and how teens are coping within their HS system. </p>

<p>I was not reacting to your 9pm system as you are free to parent as you wish. It’s just that I thought you were suggesting that all parents should follow your example. In my opinion, a 9pm bedtime is unrealistic for the majority of teens with all they have to do but if it works for your kids, that’s great. I WISH my kids got as much sleep as yours do but I won’t dictate to them or to other parents what ECs/level of academics they should choose. I leave that decision to them.</p>

<p>Limbwalker, you stated “I don’t think any parents who allow their kids to stay up past 9:30 or 10:00 pm are doing them any favors at all.” That was the comment that seemed judgemental to me.</p>

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<p>My school starts at 7:15 and it’s about 25 minutes away. It means a 5:30 wake up time, though luckily I drive myself–the bus comes around 6:10. Getting out at 2:15 is awesome, but I still am exhausted and unfocused for the 90 minutes of last period. And, to be honest, since my energy level drops after school until about 6, getting out early is fairly useless anyway. All it does is allow sports teams to practice later and encourage kids to join 10,000 clubs because they have “so much free time” after school. Then, they realize they have actual homework to do, stay up till 2, crash during school, take a 3 hour nap after school and ECs. Rinse, wash, repeat.</p>

<p>It’s just incredibly unhealthy. There’s no way to get to bed before 11 at the very earliest (and, for me and most of my peers, usually closer to 1). All research points to the need for at least 8 hours of sleep for teens. I somewhat disagree (I’m fine on 6-7), but nonetheless, starting at 7:15 is infeasible for all but the no-homework or all-nights set. Add to that a debate schedule that means I get up at 4:30/5 most Saturday mornings, and get only a few hours of sleep between return Saturday night and the requisite church Sunday morning, and it’s a recipe for disaster. </p>

<p>Time management does help a lot, I’ll admit. When I put my mind to it, I can work after school for maybe four hours and get most of my work (including progress on long-term progress) out of the way. But I’ve only gotten a grip halfway through my junior year, so it remains to be seen if my GPA can be salvaged while I continue to pursue debate and writing. </p>

<p>My personal opinion is that school hours should be more akin to 9-5 work hours (though I suppose traffic would be impossible). If an extracurricular period were scheduled in there, with A and B days so that kids couldn’t join more than two clubs/sports, I think sanity would be restored. It would create an academic environment that is just lacking when kids are zombies and know they only have to hold on until 2:15. And it would prevent overscheduling (and force the clubs that never actually meet into extinction). Just my two cents.</p>

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<p>My youngest S’s school (10th grade now) begins at 7:20 and he’s finished by 2, soccer or track afterwards. He’s never up late and his grades reflect it (he’s decided to live with Dad so that he can coast along in lower mediocrity). The district encompasses a large, rural area and the buses come so early that there have been occasions when the kids were waiting outside and passers-by told them that school was closed due to weather problems (rare, as they grow’em tough here!). My D, now a freshman in college, went to a prep school where classes ran from 8-3 and she always had something before or after school, or often both and homework had her up until at least midnight each night if not later.She graduated at the top of her class, all AP’s and Honors classes. Last semester, she had a class that began at 7:30 and she swears, “Never again”!</p>

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<p>Six years ago our high school had a huge percentage of students who had lunch scheduled 1st, second or last period – not at their requests. New principal figured out that the schedule was being built around teachers who told the scheduling office that they didn’t want to teach 1st, 2nd. or 8th period. </p>

<p>Meanwhile, kids and parents are repeatedly warned that they must not, under any circumstances, request specific off periods. </p>

<p>Just another great example of the system not necessarily being optimized for those who it is intended to serve.</p>

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<p>“Limbwalker, you stated “I don’t think any parents who allow their kids to stay up past 9:30 or 10:00 pm are doing them any favors at all.” That was the comment that seemed judgemental to me…”</p>

<p>Okay, I guess I can see that.</p>

<p>That’s the funny thing about these internet message forums. We all post our opinions here. Obviously, when our opinions run contrary to those of others, we don’t “agree” with them. By saying I feel that parents who let their kids stay up late aren’t doing them any favors, it’s merely a way of explaining how I don’t agree with that practice. I feel it’s not necessarily in the child’s best interest. Which is why I try to always get mine in bed by 9:00 p.m. (or at least headed that direction). </p>

<p>It would be idiotic for me to think that everyone agrees with that philosophy. So, by choosing to post it, I know full well that some will read that and disagree. Some might even say I’m being “judgemental” but isn’t that what we’re all doing whether we post the opinion or not? Honestly. </p>

<p>By disagreeing with me (or anyone else), you yourself are being judgemental. That’s okay. It’s your right, just as it’s my right to judge whether or not I agree with you.</p>

<p>I really don’t think its that big of a deal, and it still continues to surprise me when a person on these forums merely offers their opinion, and others get defensive and claim they are being “judgemental” because they don’t agree. LOL! How boring would life be if we all agreed!</p>

<p>“My personal opinion is that school hours should be more akin to 9-5 work hours…”</p>

<p>I don’t know a single person who starts work at 9:00 a.m. I start work every day at 7:30, after a half hour commute. Most folks I know start work at 8:00. </p>

<p>John.</p>