You will have a better chance at getting in smaller or private colleges, than large universities. Many cut off at GPA from the beginning.
My son had a similar profile but has ADHD (which he has not outgrown). However his high school journey was one of figuring out how to succeed at school in spite of his ADHD. He also wrote about his ADHD in the context of his job on a local farm for his essay. We did not know how he would do with admissions so applied to 8 schools. He got into all but 2, and is attending one of his reach schools (and is getting decent grades).
I would guess that being able to explain his record and to reflect on it, and on his journey might be why he did so well with admissions.
Schools we looked at, where the high test scores would be helpful: Hobart and William Smith, Skidmore, Lewis and Clark, Furman, Rhodes Kenyon, Denison. (My son did not apply to all of them!).
Good luck, it’s a journey!
@zoekirbymikey Like others, I can identify! A few thoughts: you may find the threads on “colleges for the B student” and “Class of xx 3.0 - 3.4” helpful. I signed up for several as the posts are on-target and many different colleges are discussed. Re the 504, sounds like you don’t need accommodations for SAT testing, so why not just ask for them for class work? Another thought is to find a school where teachers religiously post grades and assignment status on line. Our local public school teachers are not consistent with this, so we moved our DC to a Catholic school that enforces online posting of assignment status and grading. It really helped get our DC more organized.
I will respond to the ‘what can we do’ question. First kid tested fairly well, but was the king of the 87 on class tests. Never wanted to be anywhere near a ‘c’ but was not going to work hard to get an ‘A.’ Until end of sophomore year when all of the seniors on his HS hockey team were talking about where they are going to college. Colleges care about good grades? Then he turned it on and got all A’s. Nothing we did ever moved him, but the hockey players moved the mountain.
Kid #2 tested extremely well. But was a very poor student. We were unsure if she would graduate from high school until the day she actually graduated. That was fun.
Youngest tested so-so, but as a junior has completed 9 AP courses and has a 4.0. All he does is study if he is not at a sports practice. He did so-so on his PSATs and spent 6 months prepping for the SAT and totally rocked it. We barely pay any attention to this kid yet he is our highest achiever academically.
So, I have no clue what to do about an under achiever and I doubt we have had anything to do with motivating our overachiever. Other than our DNA. A switched-at-birth scenario has been considered. These three were SO different. The only consistency was they all agreed their parents knew nothing.
@zoekirbymikey I suggest you hire an Educational Advocate.
@cypresspat I wish I could “like” your post 100 times. It is so true!!
@zoekirbymikey , if you are in PA, the laws are more stringent than federal and they MUST put the 504 in even if grades are B range.
Don’t let the school bully you. Fight for extended time.
University of Alabama and University of Alabama Huntsville have used whatever GPA is on transcript. I’m not sure of other schools. Verify with HS what GPA is on transcript.
I would say…wait until you have his SAT and ACT scores back. There are some threads on this forum for colleges for B students. There will be plenty of choices…but $20,000 could limit his options.
What state are you in? Some states have smaller directional colleges that are less costly. Or maybe he can commute to a public college from your home which would save room/board costs. Or maybe he can start at a community college which would cost less than $20,000 a year…bank that money and use it for the last two years to fund the completion of his bachelors degree.
High test scores and low grades indicate a high level of potential that isn’t being realized for some reason. Lots of kids like this do great in college because they’re better able to zero in on what they want to study, and don’t have to spend as much time with subjects they’re not interested in. I’d check out lots of the colleges that change lives. He should be able to transfer from one of those institutions into a top tier college in his sophomore or junior year if he doesn’t find himself challenged there.
Fyi, I was a student with a similar profile, and after attending a mid-tier liberal arts college, I was able to gain admittance to a T20 University.
Definitely get the accommodations and support. But it seems to me there is something of a discrepancy between “top 5%” IQ and “near perfect” practice PSAT scores (which I take to mean NMF qualifying ie top 1%). I think long term objectives may be different for a top 5% kid vs a top 1% kid (let alone a top 0.1% kid). After all ADD is going to bring down the actual realized performance, so a top 5% kid might perform at top 10-20% level, a top 1% kid might perform at top 2-5% level and a top 0.1% kid might still perform at top 0.2-1% level.
So that might need to be used to think about career and college objectives. On the other hand if they find something they are fascinated by, you might see all of the latent abilities being realized. Unfortunately the US system is not well matched to that sort of kid, because of the breadth, busy work and continuous assessment inherent in the curriculum, but few of the long tail things that allow for a kid with very different levels of realized performance to specialize and excel. (Yes I know there are lots of spiky kids at top schools, but they don’t usually have a bunch of Bs in subjects they don’t care about). Those opportunities tend to be outside school and likely offer more upside for the 0.1-1% kid (I’m thinking of math Olympiads, hackathons, etc.). But they may be worth looking into to see if there is something that holds his interest.
This thread makes me sad and frustrated. This is not any criticism of this mom who gave information, made no excuses for her son, and asked for how to proceed in the college search for a potentially lopsided student. A few posters gave great suggestions then it turned crazy. I can’t scroll on
First, B’s are above average and not everyone earns As all the time. Some don’t earn them at all. It amazes me that so many people are jumping in to figure out the neurological reasons why a child might be getting Bs, as if they are basically failing. People are diagnosing him from behind their computers from a few lines from mom. Many people have mild ADHD/ADD but not all need 504 plans or accommodations.People have decided that there is obviously something wrong that must be fixed or accommodated for to level the playing field. Level it to what? To the level of the kids that work 1,000 percent to earn those As? Level the playing field for people who have it easier? Level it to the level of people who go above and beyond what is expected always? Level the playing field by getting “extended testing time” for a child who is scoring “NEAR PERFECT” without the extended testing time? How are any of these things leveling anything? It seems like looking for excuses for why the merely above average is not performing exceptional. It seems like getting an advantage that others don’t have instead of leveling anything.
Mom has indicated that he works hard but not as hard as those around him that are making the As. Mom indicates that son is functioning and doing well otherwise. He is a 15 year old boy that has changed schools in sophomore year - and he is getting Bs, this is not the sign of a huge issue. When has being shy and introverted turned into a disability that needs diagnosis and support? Mom was not asking for help to bring him out of his shell but included to explain a challenge to college applications when getting recommendations. When the stakes are high and he is concentrating on a test, he excels, but when he has to work consistently across different settings with different levels of interest - he is merely “above average”. Where have we gone as a society that kids are not good enough when they are simply 14 and 15 year old kids who are earning ABOVE AVERAGE grades? NO wonder so many kids are anxious, self medicating, and struggling to enter adulthood. The general idea of the posters here is that everyone deserves an A and if they are not getting it, then there is something wrong, slow processing, executive functioning, ADD, ADHD - Quick let’s fill out a checklist that turns typical teenage behavior atypical and in need of supports. Every child must be an A. Every child must be the best and if they are not we will go to Drs who will explain it away. There are children with neurological differences and ADD/ADHD has the potential to severely impact learning. From what mom has written, this does not seem to be the case.
The mom indicates that he is fine, working hard but not to extreme. The school is indicating that child is performing consistently at an above average rate (hence the 3.1) and posters here are quick to blame the school and get some special supports for this child. Posters are diagnosing, taking a SAT consultants testing as valid, extending their own experiences with their own children who MAY or may NOT have valid diagnosis and accommodations, and discounting the people that actual know and work with this child (his mom in initial post before the power of the crowd convinced her there must be something wrong with him, the school that works with him every day). Didn’t take long for posters to jump in to suggest the parent demand extended time for this child who scored “near perfect” on a few hour standardized test that he took without extended time. WHY would a child who had no accommodations and scored near perfect NEED extended time? The initial testing came from a college prep/SAT consultant per mom. That is not a psychologist. It doesn’t seem on the up and up. They will take your $ and make your B student (who mom admits works but not as hard as others and who has had some disruptions to his peer group and environment due to a change in schools) and we will tell you he had the potential to do better if he follows our plan and pays our money.
“He needs a 504, he needs extended testing time, he need accommodations to reach his full potential, get an advocate, force the school to put a 504 in place” according to the crowd here who have never met him. THIS is the huge problem in schools today and with parents who want to remove every obstacle from their child’s path. THIS is why extended test time SHOULD absolutely be indicated on applications. THIS Is what causes so much distress for the families and students who actually NEED the accommodations to level the playing field when others start expecting it when it is not indicated or needed.
Is every B student a hidden ADD/ADHD diagnosis needing fixing or do some students just perform at a B level? Is it only OK for some kids to get Bs but for those that test well they need leveling of the playing field of extended time and 504 accommodations? What about those B students that “only” test at the 80% or the 70% or lower- are B’s good enough for them? Do we need to test those kids to see if they have slow processing or executive functioning? What about the poor kids who work their tails off to earn the As but do not have SAT consultants or top test scores - Do they deserve extended testing time to level the playing field?
Is a 3.1 such a disgrace that there obviously more to this young mind? Is it possible that some students are slow starters, don’t participate and focus in class because they choose not to, or just don’t care enough to join the rat race and do the extreme amount of work required to earn As consistently? Is it possible that a 14/15 year old boy in a new school is not up to speed with his peers because of choices he made through the years leading up to this or that he is just trying to find his place while still earning above average grades? Is it possible that he has adjusted to his ADD and had figured out how to succeed and be above average all on his own and with supports and strategies put in place in early schooling? Isn’t that amazing and shouldn’t that be celebrated? Alas,the crowd that doesn’t know him doesn’t think that’s enough.
To the OP - your son will likely be fine if he is as described in your initial post. If you continue to be strategic in your search and applications, you will find him a great school where he can thrive and you can afford. There are so many amazing posters here with great ideas and there are parent groups for B students. You will see that they are getting into great schools and thriving. There are brilliant students at all levels of schools, not just the top 20 or top 50. My advice - don’t be quick to handicap him and define him as different because he is not measuring up to some benchmark of excellence. Don’t be quick to make him different in his eyes or the eyes of his peers that needs fixing and leveling so he can compete. Be careful the message that is sending him - that he is not enough, that you think he is more than he is showing, that you will make sure that the school fixes it for him so he can be successful. Seems to me from what you wrote that you boy is already navigating pretty well. He will likely find so much more success in college and in life if you search for schools that match who he is instead of trying to turn him into something you think he should or could be in some idealized world.
“Prepare the child for the road, not the road for the child”
@cinnamon1212 The first two drove us so nuts we gave up on the third. I mean I have never met a single one of my youngest’s teachers since the fifth grade. I’m thinkin’ no news is good news.
@bamamom2021 , as a Mom of 3, I was quite content with my B student who didn’t put in the time for As and instead chose to take part in many activities.
I was NOT content and fought tooth and nail for my NMF who did NOT have extended time for PSAT or SAT, earned Bs and struggled with EF and ADHD. My kid needed the extended time on essay tests and projects. He needed testing in a less distracting environment.
I certainly didn’t look for a loophole or label. The kid felt that all on his own. The teachers applied lazy to him. I just worked hard to be certain no one destroyed his confidence or added to his depression because he knew he wasn’t lazy.
No one here is looking to elevate OPs student, but OP clearly stated the student was identified as ADHD in the past. It isn’t something that is outgrown. It is something folks learn to live around. It us a REAL condition ACKNOWLEDGED by medical experts. Unless you have witnessed or lived through what it is like to be told to deal with it, work around it and shut up, you shouldn’t weigh in. Would you withhold glasses from a student because they are achieving Bs? But with glasses they could read the board and get As?
First of all I agree that none of us know your child as you do, all we can do is share our own experiences. Take what works for you, toss the rest.
I have several “B” kids. They are B kids for different reasons. All have gone to, are attending or will attend next year, wonderful schools that suited each. The “A” kid had an equally good result but I wouldn’t say better. It suited her as the other results suited those kids.
In your case my question would be twofold.
One. How does he do on the tests in school? SAT or ACT results are one thing, in class results another.
Two. What is the primary cause of the low grades? Missing work? Incomplete work? If so, do you (or he) know why it is missing, or incomplete. Is he honest about these things or cover any of it up?
One of my B kids has adhd. He does not test well but did the work. Medication for him was life changing. Not that it turned him into an A kid…the personality that wants to do what is required and not more doesn’t change with meds, but it did allow him to get through this work and stay focused. He did not receive accommodations and for him, getting b’s in rigorous classes was better than b’s in mainstream where he’d be bored and cause trouble.
My other B kid is an amazing test taker. Always has been. Has skated through years of classes as the test scores made up for not doing the homework. Like ever. Flat out didn’t do it. He didn’t need to do the homework to test well. Until it caught up with him. He was also diagnosed as adhd and meds seemed to help for a bit, till they didn’t. He never agreed with that diagnosis. We were so frustrated as really it seemed deliberate. Smart but lazy. If the subject didn’t engage him, why bother with minutia he didn’t need to do well on a test. We were able to get a 504 his junior year but it was pretty worthless. He didn’t need extra time on tests, and with AP classes they couldn’t change late penalties. They could however do positive peer mentoring and preferential seating. The HS is really geared towards saving the kid who might not graduate, not the one who is underperforming but at level or above. It just is what it is.
A lot of angst, lying, missed work, nagging, helicoptering, fears about depression and anxiety and other drama later we finally went in for full psychological testing. In his case he is high functioning ASD with executive functioning issues. Having a correct diagnosis, finding a therapist and restructuring support and accommodations has made an amazing difference. So did the preferential seating and positive peer placement. Ultimately he made the difference, because he chose to. He had a lot of help getting there.
A year ago I though we were looking at a gap year. Or CC or who knew what.
All I am trying to say is it’s ok to dig for answers. It’s also ok to love the B kid on the couch.
Budget will be by far your biggest issue. Ursinus does love high test scores but the starting price tag is also high. Some will depend on your EFC. Depending on the state you live in, your EFC and your sins stats, lots of folks here can help with suggestions.
Stop by the 2019 3.0-3.4 thread in a week or so when I post updated results. I think you’ll be surprised at how many options there are.
For the record my B kids went 7/7 and 3/3 with their applications, receiving merit at all.
@Longhaul like the glasses analogy and might have to steal that from you.
@bamamom2021. Love your passion but you evidently don’t have a child with add /slow processing /executive functioning issues. In my day executive functioning was a messy bedroom.?. That one is interesting to me.
But having my kids tested and found stuff… Since like elementary and paying for tutors, specialist etc etc is not fun.
One thing that you are not understanding is that these kids are not learning or performing to their potential. You test them and they score through the roof but then on one section, let’s say English they score 3 grades behind. Hmmm… How can that be?
This is how it started with us with one child. Child two has dyscalcuka. That is fun when your kid basically really wants to do math but can’t. Took like till high school for them to figure that one out. Getting them to accommodate for that is like pulling teeth. Not being able to look at a blackboard and replicate it on paper (transference) is a blast. Not understanding right/left handness is really peculiar.
So with child 1, highly bright scoring into 12 th high school level in 6th grade but takes a long time to answer a basic question. Not being able to formulate thoughts but is one of the brightest kid in his school mathematically sets off some red flags. Reads really slow and states he can’t remember anything… Hmmm… Maybe a reading comprehension?..
Being introverted , quite, shy for some kids is normal. But coupled with other signs is usually a form of add or learning disability. Not by itself but taken with other stuff. Until you see your own kids go through it you will never understand. Yes, his school didn’t understand either even with both kids having developmental optometry (fixed the right/left hand stuff and skipping lines while reading . Kinda cool), fixed the transference. Biofeedback was night and day with organization with one kid and add signs. Seriously her teachers asked if she was medicated for add. They never saw such great results. Executive functioning issues gone (has to do with organization with daily tasks including notes at school homework and yes… The messy bedroom)
Each kid had the $5,000 evaluation in middle school (neuropsychology testing). Each kid had their issues. One 504, one Iep, and weekly pull outs from class for extra help during school is a blast.
I am not even giving you a lot of details either but we could of settled and she could of just been a b/c student and he could of been a “b” student but struggling internally knowing he could do better.
So what was the outcome?
She is a junior in college and has been on the Dean’s list since Freshman year. We didn’t see that coming honestly. She transferred to another Lac on a Presidential merit scholarship worth like $30,000…very few of these are given. She wants to graduate and go on to a PhD.
He is at Michigan in engineering as a sophomore and after winning some project grants worth $15,000 started a tech club and just hosted a major conference in this field and was just written up in a tech magazine. He is doing well in engineering and struggling like everyone else?.
Neither kid use the accommodations that they have in college. Both don’t want any special treatment even though the universities are willing. It was never fun being pulled out of class to take a test in a room by yourself.
He did have extra time on the act. He can’t think as fast as you can but it seems some of this is mental maturity also since we do see differences the last year with him. He is a sophomore in a very hard college and only now, we are seeing him catching up with brain processing… Hmmmm…
So we could of just left everything alone but when you see your kids not living up to their potential or struggling when they shouldn’t then yes that’s my responsibility as a parent to help my kids.
I agree that there are kids that are “c” students and there are b and A students as well. This is not keeping up with the Joneses either. It’s what’s right for your child.
Why do many people here saying add /processing issues etc.??? Once you experience it, it is very easy to see it in others.
I have experienced Adhd all my life with me and my family members. I struggled greatly in school. It was a living hell. Didn’t want that for my children. It is not always kids bouncing off the walls. Shy, introverted, self doubting is usually a sign more in boys then girls but again with usually other things like social ackwardness or missing social cues. BTW - I am a double board certified surgeon. Took a lot to get there.
So again you have a lot of passion but it seems to be misplaced and misguided.
A friend had a son very similar to OP. Bad GPA, good tester. GPA Improved a bit when he took AP and honors classes which interested him and had good teachers. Still he often didn’t turn in assignments and had mediocre grades, but because the classes were AP or honors it helped raise his GPA. And the kicker is he scored 3s and 4s on the annual AP exams thus earning college credit. Ended up at a medium sized college. Scored in the lower midrange of SAT but did great on the ACT.
Make sure his high school is supporting him in taking interesting, engaging classes. You will find a college that he will do well at
I have written before and will put it out there once again that there are absolutely valid diagnosis and necessary accommodations. I have first hand experience in my family as well as daily in front of me in the classrooms every day for over a quarter of a century. That is where my passion comes from. Those that truly need are getting crowded out by those looking for an advantage or a way to fix their perfectly normal child. I have a degree in developmental psychology with my teaching certificate along with a masters in counseling and another in MEd in reading as a certified reading specialist.
The glasses analogy is great but a little imperfect in that there are standardized objective measures for visual acuity. So parents find out if their child wears glasses they can get special supports beyond just the glasses. They insist that their child needs glasses when that need is not indicated. The school eye test shows no disparity so they go to a private doctor. They get the prescription just in case. They don’t wear them or wear and when reminded the child and often parents say they really don’t need them. They say they have them because sometime it is hard for them to understand or see things. They don’t pick up their socks at home or they forget their instrument that mom sat right next to the door.
The glasses entitles them to petition for additional accommodations such as extended testing time. When testing company follows up with the school and realizes he doesn’t wear glasses parents are furious. The parents go through all the hoops and their child is granted extended testing time and an advantage on normed timed assessments. This is noted anywhere in applications sent to the colleges. In the classroom the child does not wear the glasses and as long as they are keeping up at a superior level the parents are fine. When contacted by teacher that they do not wear their glasses the parents say they are embarrassed and to not signal them out. They only need the glasses sometimes. However, when they miss an important assignment the parents call and insist that their accommodations were not met, they obviously didn’t see the assignment written because they didn’t have their glasses. They are entitled to a do over or extension because their accommodation was not met. When they do poorly on a test and they weren’t wearing their glasses, it is the school’s fault and they get a retest. They are just leveling the playing field for their child because it is not fair that it is harder for them. They get into college and thrive without ever using the glasses. They had them just in case they were ever needed but they were not needed. They thrive in college, maybe even go on to advanced degrees, and amazing careers where they do wonderful things. It is all the more amazing that they do all of this even though it is harder on them then all others around since they can’t see. They no longer need the glasses and they are doing great. As they age, it is likely that they will need glasses. They have struggled with this all of their life.
I am not judging the merits or necessity of any diagnosis of any posters. I do not know the path you walk and I would never even venture a guess. The struggle is real in an alarming number of families. Resources and supports are diverted from those truly in need by those who are not as a way to get an edge or explain average. If this scenario does not mirror your child then you should also be outraged that so many people are jumping on this as a way to make their typical child even more advantaged. After a post like this on sites geared towards younger children, we will see a spike in prereferal requestsby parents. My original post was pointing out the parents jumping in to diagnose and the question of how to help this child navigate the college search was met by get accommodations and he needs extended testing time.
The B grades won’t be the problem in this kid getting admitted to college. The $20k self imposed limit for a high EFC family will be.
I think people, or at least me, were saying to figure out WHY the discrepancy between high test scores and lower grades first.
As a parent of an ADHD kid, I could care less what other families do. It does not affect me.
Before my son’s diagnosis in 6th grade I wasn’t sure he could manage high school, and certainly not college. The diagnosis was life changing. My son’s example is extreme, but that’s why I urge parents to first figure out WHY the student is underperforming.
Two more points: I agree ADHD is overdiagnosed, especially when it is diagnosed with a quick questionnaire (vs neuropsych testing).
But also the posters suggesting it was ADHD were right – the kid DOES have untreated (for lack of a better word) ADD.