Hmmm. A dilemma many bs/md applicants are going through?

Pre-Med & Medical School Multiple Degree Programs
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<p>So here's the dilemma. Say you get accepted into a really prestigious combined medical program such as HPME at Northwestern, but also get accepted to a prestigious school without the combined medical program, such as MIT or HYP. Where do you go?</p>

<p>My own thoughts:
If you are good enough to get into a combined medical program as a high schooler, then you are probably going to end up at a presitigious medical school regardless of which college you go to. For that reason, it is better to go to the school that fits your needs and will provide you with a fantastic education.</p>

<p>The only drawback is that it will be an arduous process getting into med school. MCATs, extracurriculars, GPA, it's almost like high school all over again, except at an extremely higher level. What a drag right? That means you may not be accepted into the BEST med school, but you will probably do well, assuming you have tried your hardest to do well in college, both inside and outside the classroom.</p>

<p>So if one decides to take the combined medical program route, you get accepted into their med school immediately, assuming you have a good GPA and MCAT scores, for some programs. One will probably still have extracurriculars, but will not have to apply to med school. </p>

<p>The drawbacks are obvious. One, you're basically locked into the combined medical program for 7+ years. Two, you may not get the ideal undergraduate and med school experience you wanted.</p>

<p>I don't know what to do. Honestly, I think I should just apply to regular universities and those with the program. Then I'll decide for myself which one is better based on whether or not the schools i get accepted to give me plenty of opportunities at research and internships and etc., but nonetheless I would like to hear from the general public.</p>

<p>Opinions?</p>

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<p>omg, i have though about this dilemma forever! I was deferred from a HYP but I am not so sure if I should try hard, because I have some creative ideas to help get me accepted, to get into a prestigious university or just stick with a lower BS/MD program?!
I agree with you on waiting to see what you get, but if you’re set on medicine, I think the combined path is right for you. I am not so sure for me though.</p>

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<p>

If you are just average at HYP, it’s unlikely you will get into a prestigious medical school. Being good enough to get into combined med school program doesn’t mean you will do well in HYP. Most combined medical programs are probably still easier to get into than HYP.</p>

<p>

For HPME, you only need 3.2 GPA and no ECs/MCAT is required.<br>

HPME doesn’t lock you into the med program for 7+ years. You can apply for other med schools if you want. You do give up going to HYPM. But you wouldn’t know if you would be giving up more “ideal” experience. “More prestigious” doesn’t mean “more ideal” and Northwestern is still a first-tier school. For many, “ideal experience” is the academic freedom to pursue whatever they like without worrying about GPAs, MCAT, and playing the game of doing all the right things, which they may not even like, to impress the med school adcom.</p>

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<p>well in reply to samlee
i dont think programs like HPME are necessarily easier than and top ivy league school
the entire process seems much more arduous and more competitive
but if you are one of the extremely lucky/smart individuals who face this dilemma
i feel like if you get into a program like HPME, NU med school is among the top med schools in the country, i mean in terms of prestige, education, and residency match
applying to NU as a normal undergrad is just as hard as applying to somewhere like harvard med</p>

<p>and also it seems like the point of these direct programs is so that you can pursue things you like without pressure of having to get into med school, i feel like i do that a lot in high school-constantly thinking about what i should do which prevents me from enjoying a lot of stuff that i would no matter what </p>

<p>but which one of you guys has applied to HPME/sent in applications</p>

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<p>if you get into a good program then GO. youre stupid if you dont.</p>

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<p>Exactly. I think the better question would be to ask is what type of program you’d go to between the BA/MD programs. PLME vs HPME, anyone?</p>

<p>I think it would be foolish to give up guaranteed medical admissions to go to HYP.You don’t have to worry about the rat race since you’ve already worried about it in high school.</p>

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<p>yup. but dont sink TOO low and go to a lower ranked program if you think you are a strong student. although i applied to pretty much higher ranked programs (and got denied), im pretty sure i could have gotten into some of the random low-ranked ones. however, attending them would have been a bad idea since im sitting pretty here in college with a 3.97 gpa. with some good activities, i have a shot at all the top schools.</p>

<p>then again, ive seen a bunch of kids go from 4.0 in high school to garbage in college. this is true for the majority of students. life is tough.</p>

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<p>@zzzboy just curious
where did you end up going?</p>

<p>and which programs did you get denied from?
you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to</p>

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<p>zzzboy goes to UCLA. It’s under his username.</p>

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<p>yeah, if you get into a good program, then go.</p>

<p>in my opinion, good programs are jefferson pmm, n’western hpme, brown plme, rice/baylor, baylor/baylor, miami hpme, boston, usc, ucsd, and pitt.</p>

<p>im kinda iffy on umkc, albany, and drexel.</p>

<p>ill give anyone who gets into wash u’s program and stays in $500, considering they accept 5 out of about 700 and you need a 3.8 and 36 on your MCAT to stay in ^^</p>

<p>oh, and i might be missing a few in this quick post since there are a bunch of excellent med programs</p>

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<p>i applied to HPME, usc, ucsd/ucsd, caltech/ucsd, and penn state/jefferson. got an interview at penn state but got denied…thought i would get in. also got an interview at ucsd/ucsd, but got rejected (saw that coming).</p>

<p>i would not have gone to penn state if i got accepted, but i would have gone to all others.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>This would be a bad assumption. Most of the students who start premed at even the best universities never make it to the application stage muchless get into a prestigious med school. </p>

<p>That said, I’m glad that many of these combined programs were either being curtailed or being eliminated together. Having experienced the rigor of med school, I don’t think it’s a very good idea for students to skate through college maintaining only a 3.2 GPA and not taking the MCAT. Even regular premed is nothing compared to med school. If students can’t even be held to those standards in college, they are in for a shock in med school (as evidenced by the poorer performance of HPME kids in med school compared with those who got into Feinberg via the normal route).</p>

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<p>Blizzardpenguin - that’s a very deep thinking post and I hope many high school applicants this year see this thread. You are very mature beyond your years.</p>

<p>Too many high school students get so scared before the process has even started to the point that they think there is no way they’ll make it into medical school, without having to do a combined program. Thus, based on this fear, they apply without really thoroughly researching their programs and are temporarily happy, grabbing whatever they’re offered, no matter how bad the program, in actuality, may be. It isn’t until a few years into the program that they greatly regret making such a hasty decision. Depending on how the program is structured, they may or may not have an easy out to go back into a 4+4 system.</p>

<p>It’s not important just to get into any program that offers a combined degree program. It’s important to look at all angles: How good is the basic science and clinical education, what educational opportunities as well as research opportunities are available at the institution, etc.: [Selecting</a> a Medical School: Thirty-Five Questions I Wish I Had Asked - Applying to Medical School - AAMC](<a href=“http://www.aamc.org/students/applying/about/35questions.htm]Selecting”>http://www.aamc.org/students/applying/about/35questions.htm)</p>

<p>doctor2b lists some of the very excellent programs that I would say are the exception the scenario you’ve presented. However, that also depends on your individual expectations of what you want.</p>

<p>The only thing - I wouldn’t call it an arduous process [[Arduous</a> Definition | Definition of Arduous at Dictionary.com](<a href=“http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/arduous]Arduous”>ARDUOUS Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com)]. Does it take hard work and determination, yes. But like ANYTHING in medicine (or life), with good time management, organizational skills, and being proactive, it’s definitely doable. You have 4 full years (Fall and Spring, taking classes in the summer is totally of your choosing) to complete undergraduate requirements of the major of YOUR choice, as well as the MCAT, and expanding your CV (what combined degree students do early on in high school, and what you do your entire life whether you’re in medical school or not).</p>

<p>“If you are good enough to get into a combined medical program as a high schooler, then you are probably going to end up at a presitigious medical school regardless of which college you go to.” – I happen to agree with this statement, assuming of course, the student isn’t so burned out from high school that they tank when they get into undergrad. With respect to Norcalguy’s comments, at ANY university there is premed attrition (people who can’t even handle General Chem, General Bio, etc.), and he went to Cornell as an undergrad.</p>

<p>I agree with your last paragraph completely. I think besides applying to the regular universities you’d want to apply to, research the individual combined programs and be selective on which one of them you’d be comfortable with attending the university and their medical school.</p>

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<p>lawl, MD2B, did you really have to include a link to the definition of the word arduous? It’s an insult to the intelligence of CC members. </p>

<p>blizzardpenguin isn’t the only one to have these thoughts on deciding between a BS/MD or a prestigious undergrad. This dilemma has been rehashed on this forum many times…</p>

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<p>MD2B, precisely because im so “burned out from high school” that I want to take the BS/MD route. I don’t want to repeat another high school experience, ie go nag ur recommenders, worry about grades, study for standardized tests, do a billion ECs, etc.</p>

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<p>i agree w/ fianchetto. for me, the point of doing a ba/md or bs/md program is that you dont have to kill yourself in college after doing so in high school. the idea is that people good enough to get into these programs are good enough to get into a decent med school.</p>

<p>also, the biggest advantage of the bs/md program is that you dont have to do all the shadowing and extracurricular stuff that you do as an undergraduate. if you know that you want to be a doctor and your mind is set on it and youre in this program, then you dont have to prove it by faking that you loved volunteering @ hospitals and shadowing doctors, because the truth is, theres really nothing you can do related to medicine when you shadow or volunteer. in a program like this, you have SO much more free time, and you can use that time to pursue other classes youre interested in or do other EC’s that you actually like doing. like me, i want to have time to do model un, newspaper, and something related to jazz. in premed, id be spending all that extra time loading up on extra science classes, doing crazy amounts of research, shadowing every doctor i see, and volunteering at every hospital within a 30 mile radius of the school.</p>

<p>its true, if you dont get into a good med program, then its not worth going there, because you could indeed probably get into a better med school, but if you get into any of the ones i listed before (n’western, baylor, brown, boston, ohio state, ucsd, usc, pitt, jefferson, miami) then its definitely worth it, since they offer excellent residency matches as well.</p>

<p>i think an accelerated program is best, at least in my case, because its also kind of a scholarship, since youre only paying for 2 or 3 years of undergrad. also, if i know that i want to be a doctor, then whats the point of waisting extra years in undergrad that although i probably will enjoy simply because its college, i wont need in the long run. if i am mature enough to get into med school earlier, then why not? i disagree strongly with those who say that people from accelerated programs are immature. one example was my brother’s psu-jefferson class. their class actually brought up jefferson’s mcat and usmle step 1 avg. score. in addition, they got into better residencies overall. if youre not mature enough to do well in med school and residency, then youre point blank not mature enough for the program, and so the med schools try to accept people who they think are mature enough.</p>

<p>my bad if there are any weird grammar mistakes in this - kinda multitasking right now</p>

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<p>Well, part of being burned out from high school is the fact that you have 7 classes a day (and by senior year it’s not unusual for many seniors to have 7 AP classes), that meet everyday for the entire year (unlike college where this is not the case at all), or if your school has block scheduling you have even more classes. On top of this, you have to complete a gigantic amount of ECs with leadership positions and healthcare experiences now, in order to even have a viable application for a BS/MD program – so this leads to much of the burnout as you’re applying for a special program of 2 things at once - one that gives you admission to the undergrad as well as the medical school at the same time.</p>

<p>Depending on the specific Bachelor/MD program, esp. the ones that are compressed, you will be burned out EVEN MORE than you would have been in the 4+4 route,as you have to fit an entire undergrad education and requirements in less time. If you look at the attrition rates of some of the Bachelor/MD programs you’ll see that. I would say the ones in doctor2b’s list are obviously the exception and are in fact a good deal.</p>

<p>Regardless of whether you do 4+4 or a BS/MD program, you WILL still have to go through the same rigamarole of “go nag ur recommenders, worry about grades, study for standardized tests, do a billion ECs, etc,” except this time for the residency match: getting letters of recommendation from attending physicians (who are going to be even busier than college professors), worrying about grades (depending on the grading system of your medical school to get into AOA Honor Society), studying for standardized tests (USMLE Step 1 and 2), and extracurricular activities.</p>

<p>The only difference is with the Bachelor/MD program you are locked at the medical school of the program, and all it’s opportunities, or great lack of them, from the very beginning as an 18 year old when you may not yet know the intricacies of what qualities you want in a medical school.</p>

<p>So even if you do a Bachelor/MD program, you still will have to go through the same sequence of events. You will not be able to avoid it. You’re just putting off one thing (essentially skipping the MCAT and getting a conditional guarantee) and jumping into a much bigger thing (the entire residency match process which determines your specialty).</p>

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<p>@ fianchetto
for the majority of the good programs
you still have to worry about your grades and sometimes even do well on the MCAT
just because you get into one of these programs does not necessarily guarantee you entrance.</p>

<p>you have to keep up your GPA. for virtually all programs. MCAT is required for some
all you miss out on is “nagging the recommenders” and “billion ECs”</p>

<p>but honestly. if you love science or the medical field. the ec’s should come naturally out of curiosity and interest</p>

<p>as for the recommendations. do well in school and participate in class discussion and recommendations should come piling through your door.</p>

<p>so overall. i don’t think it really matters whether or not you get into a BS/MD program.
but it is pretty nice getting guaranteed entrance into a medical school. :P</p>

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<p>did not see those two comments on the second page XD
im kinda new at this</p>

<p>but yeah i basically reiterated what MD2B2012 said…sorta</p>

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<p>A perfect example of what I’m talking about is the NEOUCOM BS/MD program which is an accelerated program of six years at a relatively low tier to, at the most, middle tier medical school.</p>

<p>For the medical school portion, for 2009-2010, in-state tuition is $30,599 and Out-of-state tuition is $59,212: <a href=“https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/report.cfm?select_control=PUB&year_of_study=2010[/url][list][*]So”>https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/report.cfm?select_control=PUB&year_of_study=2010[ul][li]So&lt;/a&gt; if you’re an out-of-state student, you’re paying more than even Harvard by going to NEOUCOM. If you were an Ohio resident, you could actually attend some of the other public medical schools as an out-of-state student and STILL pay less than you would as an in-state resident at NEOUCOM)[/ul][/li]Annually, this will go up every year with inflation.</p>

<p>The undergraduate institutions are Kent State University, Youngstown State University, or The University of Akron. Each have their own tuition settings, but they’re pretty close in cost.</p>

<p>Youngstown State University: [YSU</a> - Office of Financial Aid and Scholarships (Tuition)](<a href=“http://cfweb.cc.ysu.edu/finaid/sec_tuition.cfm]YSU”>http://cfweb.cc.ysu.edu/finaid/sec_tuition.cfm)
Kent State University: [Tuition</a> and Fees](<a href=“Kent Campus | Kent State University Kent State, one of Ohio’s leading public universities”>Kent Campus | Kent State University Kent State, one of Ohio’s leading public universities)
The University of Akron: [Information</a> about tuition | The Office of Student Accounts](<a href=“http://www.uakron.edu/busfin/studentfin/tuition.php]Information”>http://www.uakron.edu/busfin/studentfin/tuition.php)</p>

<p>At most regular undergrads, 12 credit hours is required to be a full-time student. On average, 15-18 credit hours is considered “normal course load” in a Fall/Spring Semester. More than 18 credit hours is considered an “overload”. Assuming you take and complete the “normal course load” each Fall/Spring, summers are not necessary.</p>

<p>Now see the undergrad curriculum mapped out at each undergrad institution where you have to take Summer, Fall, and Spring semesters:</p>

<p>Youngstown State University: <a href=“http://www.ysu.edu/admissions/pdfs/bs_md_curriculum_sheet_2013.pdf[/url]”>http://www.ysu.edu/admissions/pdfs/bs_md_curriculum_sheet_2013.pdf&lt;/a&gt; [ul][<em>]In the Fall/Spring you’re taking 20-23 credit hours and in the summer is 9-12 credit hours.[/ul]
Kent State University: [Course</a> Requirements](<a href=“http://www.kent.edu/academics/BS-MD/courserequirement.cfm]Course”>http://www.kent.edu/academics/BS-MD/courserequirement.cfm)[ul][</em>]In the Fall/Spring you’re taking 18-19 credit hours and in the summer is 12-14 credit hours.[/ul]
The University of Akron: [Semester</a> by Semester Curriculum](<a href=“http://www.uakron.edu/colleges/artsci/depts/bsmd/semester_curriculum.php]Semester”>http://www.uakron.edu/colleges/artsci/depts/bsmd/semester_curriculum.php)[ul][*]Here in the Fall/Spring you’re taking 20-24 credit hours and in the summer is 14-15 or 7-12 credit hours.[/ul]Because the program requires a B.S. degree and you only have 2 years, you have to take an “overload” in number of credit hours each semester. So, for example, in this particular program, you don’t get to relax and enjoy the undergraduate portion at all. If anything – you’ll get burned out completely.</p>