Hooboy, I can see the dilemma now.

Parents Forum
41

<p>marite, S1 picked a top ten with partial merit, Staffords and PT job over honors full ride at State U. No regrets. He had considerations similar to your younger S.</p>

<p>We made the same commitment to fund both kids at the school of their choice, with the proviso that they have financial skin in the game and live up to their end of the deal academically. The value proposition has crossed our minds, however. OTOH, S2 has knocked several schools off his list because <em>he</em>felt they were not worth that much $$$. I’m glad he appreciates the costs involved and is thinking about the value, but I am also glad he is not driven by prestige, either.</p>

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<p>Personally, I see more members of the Church of Prestige here on CC.</p>

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<p>^^ true, so true. I don’t have a problem looking for a great fit. I do have a problem with applying for prestige as the primary criterion – but that’s my issue.</p>

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<p>Something that you can do now since you probably have at least the NMF secure: </p>

<p>Since you know your son will have the NMF scholarship at your local state school, take a very close look at the exact kind of experience your son will have there. Don’t go by the average numbers; talk directly to the people in the honors program and the people in his possible major departments and see what they have to offer. The honors people can offer feedback on the kinds of experience top students at that school often have (for instance, what kinds of grad schools they get into) or how much emphasis is placed on undergrad research or how well the honors students fit into the rest of the school. The department is a good place to look into research projects, talk to possible faculty mentors, etc. You might be surprised by how much they’ll roll out the red carpet for your son if you go visit. Over the course of a few visits and emails/calls, you can probably get a good idea of the full extent of what that school can offer and it might be better than you think. </p>

<p>In the event that your local state school turns out to not live up to those high expectations or even if you just want more options, I’d also recommend looking around at the other schools (there are a number of threads that list them) that offer full rides for NMFs as well as other state schools that have exceptional scholarship programs. Your in-state school might not be the best deal out there for your son’s interests, so it’s important to look around for the best possible situation. Who knows? Your son might end up liking the financial/academic deal at one of those schools more than the expensive privates.</p>

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<p>Yes, for example we have neighbors whose kid chose Virginia Tech over Hopkins for financial reasons. We have other friends with an absolutely brilliant kid who chose a public university (not a Berkeley/Michigan/UVa/Wisconsin) over Chicago for financial reasons. He’ll be starting in a Ph.D. program at a famous British university in the fall. </p>

<p>Both these kids are in physical science/CS concentrations. Their choices seem to be working out well. In the latter case, it’s a little hard to imagine how even a HYPS could have resulted in outcomes so much better they’d be worth a mountain of debt (considering he was published at an early age, was a commencement speaker at his college, and will be going to grad school at one of the best universities in the world).</p>

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<p>I still think it’s premature to worry. I know very few kids majoring in the physical sciences who were able to pull off a semester abroad- it throws off the sequences of courses. But hey, I understand the natural parental desire to keep as many options on the table as possible- just understand that science PhD’s get paid for by someone else; study abroad will be tough to swing (not for finances, but for academics); and I still think you are worrying quite uneccessarily about stuff that is largely far off in the future.</p>

<p>How about getting a better handle on the other “admissions bargains” out there in addition to your state U honors program? That to me seems like a better use of time than speculating on all this futurama stuff.</p>

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<p>Another thought (to add to an already complicated situation):</p>

<p>My husband has a Ph.D. in math and my son is in the process of trying to get one in computer science. These are not exactly your son’s interests, but they’re fairly close.</p>

<p>From their experience, I think I can say with some confidence that where you get your Ph.D. is far, far more important than where you get your undergraduate degree. This is especially true for those who seek a career in academia, but it is even true to some extent for those who seek careers in industry. The rankings of graduate schools in specific fields are surprisingly important.</p>

<p>But this does not mean that where you get your undergraduate degree is completely irrelevant. </p>

<p>My son got his undergraduate degree at a state university, but it was a state university that had a top-20 department in his field and offered extensive undergraduate research opportunities – which he took advantage of. Thus, he had research experience and recommendations from professors who were known to the professors at his current graduate school (which also has a top-20 department in his field). </p>

<p>My husband also got his undergraduate degree at a state university, but like my son, he had opportunities to work with faculty and to obtain good recommendations from them.</p>

<p>With all that said, I have to admit that neither my husband nor my son chose their undergraduate colleges with Ph.D.s in mind. My husband started out in electrical engineering, with no thought of graduate school, changed his major midway through college because the loss of a semester to illness meant that he would not be able to complete the highly structured EE program without spending an extra year in college, and didn’t give serious consideration to graduate school until it was almost time to apply. My son always knew he would major in computer science but had no thought of a research career until a friend of his father’s suggested that he apply to a certain research-oriented internship. He liked the work at the internship, and that changed his world forever. </p>

<p>My point here is that events you cannot now anticipate could lead to changes in your son’s plans. If there were some way to be sure that a Ph.D. was in your son’s future, I would say that he should look for good bargains in universities that have good (not necessarily top-10, but good) research programs in his major and extensive undergraduate research opportunities, regardless of the overall ranking of the university. But you cannot be sure that his plans will not change. Young people are still growing and evolving, and unexpected events may intervene as well. Just as my husband and son entered college with no thought of getting Ph.D.s, your son, who has that idea in mind, may end up following a different path.</p>

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<p>D2 had exactly that shoice. She chose the top 20 school, where we will be paying retail - more than double what State U would have cost us. She liked the private school better, and the choice was hers. Of course being Californians the shoice was also partly influuenced by uncertainty hanging over our State U due to extreme budget pressures.</p>

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<p>Our son had to choose between honors at the state U. and an Ivy, once he received acceptances. I thought that the state U. was fine, and it would have cost $8,000/year with scholarships. The Ivy, which has since improved its financial aid drastically, gave him a good package but still, the relative cost was much higher than the state U.</p>

<p>Our son paid the difference, basically, because he wanted to go to the Ivy. He does not regret it, and the school itself provided the job on campus, and the school provided connections to summer jobs as well. He worked extra hard at these jobs, which he would not have had to do if he had gone to the state U., but he is happy with what he experienced and with the results.</p>

<p>On the other hand, we know many, many kids who have gone to the state U. honors program and been incredibly happy with it, and who are doing interesting things now. If our son had made the other choice, we would have been really happy about it, too.</p>

<p>Is your son especially mature? Finishing in two years sounds enticing, but if he is a kid who could benefit from the 4 year experience on an undergraduate campus, then that is a factor too.</p>

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<p>A good point was made. Many, if not most, college students change their majors and career directions AT LEAST once during their college years…or after. While the OPs son may be interested in sciences NOW, he “could” take a humanities course that will turn his world around. OR he could get a job in a science related field after undergrad graduation…and hate it. </p>

<p>I agree…stop planning for five years or more into the future. It’s really not worth your time or effort at this point. Too many unknowns.</p>

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<p>I agree. The best laid plans of mice and moms…</p>

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<p>
[QUOTE=vig180]

You might be surprised by how much they’ll roll out the red carpet for your son if you go visit.

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<p>We did, and they did. I left, and I’m pretty sure my son left as well, with a good impression of good ol’ State U. Aside from a group tour of the campus, the attention was plentiful and one-on-one. They really acted like they wanted him there, which was a great feeling.</p>

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[QUOTE=Marian]

My point here is that events you cannot now anticipate could lead to changes in your son’s plans.

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<p>Yes, I must keep this in mind.</p>

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[QUOTE=compmom]

Is your son especially mature? Finishing in two years sounds enticing, but if he is a kid who could benefit from the 4 year experience on an undergraduate campus, then that is a factor too.

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<p>Very mature, yes, but I think almost everyone benefits from the full, four-year experience. If he goes the State U route, I would encourage him to spend the whole four years exploring new fields, rather than rushing through in two years, unless he strongly feels that the two-year plan is right for him.</p>

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<p>Yes, you really must. Go through last year’s admissions threads and see just how many hearts were broken because parents and kids counted their chickens. Admissions isn’t like shopping for a car: Yes, you must choose them, but they must also also choose you, and that’s where prestige-driven appications often come a-cropper.</p>

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<p>Go for 4 undergrad years, almost in all circumstances. The kids’ maturity level improves every year. Many threads on graduating early, or have kids entering college earlier than 18yo. Many threads.</p>

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<p>Having the top scores, ECs, letters of rec, does not guarantee HYPS or top 25 schools. I’ve looked back at DS applied schools, and realize that he was lucky to get into the school he wanted. He didn’t have any safeties.</p>

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<p>It’s an emotional thing too, when you are looking at colleges with your children. Since we do love them and want them to have what they want, when it comes to this milestone, it is difficult to stick to stringent parameters, especially if you can somehow afford to pay more than you feel you should.</p>

<p>We are in that situation. We paid full freight for the first one, and, yes, we could by changing our lifestyles, pay for all of our kids. But there are other things in life that are important and take financial precedence. Doesn’t change my feelings though. I so wish we could responsibly pay for whatever college my kids want.</p>

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<p>We told D1 we would pay for the best school she could get into. There was no discussion of which school was worth it and which school wasn’t. As far as we were concerned, any school that could give her the best possible education was worth it.</p>

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<p>Re post 54:</p>

<p>I am a great advocate of spending 4 years in college rather than 3. Not because kids become more mature but because there is so much to learn in classes and out of them and so many extra curricular opportunities. I would, for example, never have guessed that my S would become interested in the EC he chose.</p>

<p>But it’s different from entering college early. S was 17 when he entered college and did fine. I, too, was 17 when I entered college; after a rocky first semester, due more to cultural unfamiliarity and language issues than lack of maturity, I did fine as well. Eighteen is not a magic number.</p>

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<p>About changes of plans: I know of one very driven young lady who started out at a UC in engineering. Her hs record said she had the chops for it, no question. She just graduated with a degree in creative writing.</p>

<p>Another vote for spending all four years in college…it’s an opportunity that will never come around again.</p>

<p>Now, I’m off to the races and hoping that my rat wins…</p>

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<p>Definitely have flagship state U as his safety. Then let him decide which more elite schools to consider and apply to, including non HYP schools. He may get the money or he may not. Being a NM finalist doesn’t guarantee money or admissions, nor do perfect SAT’s. Do look at how your U fairs in those sciences- if the science depts are very mediocre it may be better to go elsewhere. Check to see what Honors options are available for the science courses- some state U’s have excellent separate Honors math/chemistry/physics intro level courses. Working with professors can be of help in preparing for grad school admissions. Especially for math/science he would benefit from as many undergrad higher level courses to best prepare for grad school- he may even get to take some grad level courses as an undergrad, better preparing him if the public U’s offerings aren’t as rigorous as elite schools. </p>

<p>Our son could have his math degree in 3 years, but taking more than the minimum will best prepare him for grad school and make him more competitive (he’s also 2 years ahead- has had the full middle school/HS experiences and no need to rush through college). Agree with Marite that entering college younger is different than rushing through it. You don’t hold back a kid from learning at his pace- may lose him to boredom and underachievement. However, in college one can easily take many more challenging/interesting courses and fill 4 years. Semester abroad may not advance his science studies- it may be an added semester for enrichment instead.</p>

<p>H and I went touring the east coast after son entered flagship U and as is our habit we checked out various bookstores. I noticed many texts used at HYP type schools were written by professors at public U’s- those elite schools are using texts from lesser schools. Of course that may mean an individual has written a particularily good book and they may supplement the book material extensively.</p>

<p>Remember that state schools have honors programs to meet the needs of their best state students, there will be many HYP caliber students in them (HYP et al only have so many spots- there is a surplus of high caliber students needing to go elsewhere). Many students will do their undergrad work at state U due to family finances and will get grad school paid for.</p>

<p>Many good posts here- leave your son’s options open for now and let him explore many top schools, including those nonHYP schools that may have good/better depts in his areas of interest. For sciences it is good to have a good grad program in the field as there can be chances to make use of them in some courses. Also, interacting with TA’s is good insight to the next level.</p>