<p>I generally lurk on the Berkeley forum, but this is one instance in which I will post. I think sakky’s right on virtually all of his points. Also, flutterfly, please get better at debating. </p>
<p>Ad hominem attacks:</p>
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<p>And on what evidence were you basing this statement exactly?</p>
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<p>Hostility and aggressiveness, that’ll really help you.</p>
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<p>He’s not condescending at all, you just feel that way because he’s defeating most of your points.</p>
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<p>Yeah, let’s set him up as a straw man and say he’s going to put up ridiculous arguments when all of his previous ones made perfect sense.</p>
<p>OP, the fact of the matter is:
Business ad majors have lower salaries than the majors you mentioned because their bonuses are greater. In other words, their total compensation is still higher. Also, as time passes, the salaries of biz ad majors rise at a faster rate and will eventually shadow those of engineering or compsci majors - generally speaking, of course. Haas is appealing for these reasons.</p>
<p>That said, there is no Ross elitism at Michigan :D</p>
<p>^I don’t care about winning any debates with sakky, I have no doubt that he will respond immediately with an extremely long quotes and statistic filled post and take over the thread like he has done >12,000 times on these forums. But unfortunately, being a great debater doesn’t always make you right. And repeatedly posting links to statistics that are contradictory in themselves and based on a very limited set of data does not help prove anything. I see why most people naturally tend to take sakky’s side on just about everything and assume he is the “official” source of all information. And anyone questioning that is obviously completely wrong, right?</p>
<p>Anyway, in case anyone cares about the opinions of actual, current UC Berkeley students, they should stop just blindly following people like sakky. Statistics and logic-based arguments are useful for debating people, but they’re not very useful when you actually want a question answered.</p>
<p>And recharge, which of my actual points has he defeated? The last couple times he has replied to anything I’ve said, he’s said something along the lines of “I don’t think anyone has argued otherwise”. He is not defeating anything, he is just being condescending because he has nothing else to say. And is it even true that my points don’t relate to this thread? If I am, I’m not the only one. Read post #64 for an example of other people who got the same thing I did out of the original post.</p>
<p>^ the only argument you brought up flutterfly, is that Haas is full of souless robots, and that you should not apply unless you enjoy ugba 10 (read: you are a destined to be a souless robot). By using such gross generalizations, you are not helping alleviate the situation. By that logic, I could say an infinite things about Berkeley. For example:
a) Reasonably number of robberies committed by black people around Berkeley campus
b) large population of poor/low middle class African Americans around Downtown Berkeley
Therefore, if you see a black guy in his mid 30s wearing baggy clothing around Shattuck, you should immediately recognize him as a likely criminal</p>
<p>a) Huge Asian population in Berkeley who study a lot
b) Berkeley is extremely cutthroat, particularly in pre-med classes
Therefore, Asians at Berkeley are losers with no life, who spend all their free time studying and doing research on the side</p>
<p>a) Frat guys tend to cause trouble and knock up girls @ parties, especially when drunk
b) Frat guys give out alcohol to underaged students
Therefore, frats are full of nothing but creeps who just want to get freshmen girls drunk and then rape them</p>
<p>For the record, I don’t want anybody to ‘naturally’ take my side. Rather, I want people to examine the data - which I attempt to provide whenever I can - and examine my arguments and the counterarguments of my detractors, and make up their own minds about the real truth. </p>
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<p>Certainly, data is always limited and sometimes contradictory. But that’s far better than no data at all. </p>
<p>In any case, those who disagree with my interpretation of the data are free to provide their own interpretation. That is why I provide the data, so readers can make up their own minds. Those who believe the data is flawed/skewed are perfectly welcome to explain what they think is missing in the data and why it would be skewed in a certain direction. </p>
<p>Nor is anybody who questions me automatically wrong. They are sometimes right, and I have conceded the point when somebody provides an argument or data that is better than mine. </p>
<p>But I do ask that you put in the effort. I put in the effort to locating and presenting data (when available), and then constructing an argument based on that data. It’s only fair for my detractors to do the same. </p>
<p>Nor should you present straw-man arguments regarding what I’ve actually said. Your points, as I understand them now, are that economics is not always a backup major to Haas, that economics and Haas are distinctly different majors, and that Haas students should not be elitist. Not once have I ever argued against any of these points. If somebody on this thread has, then you should take it up with them. </p>
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<p>That’s an interesting proposition: instead of relying on data and logic, people should simply rely on opinions? By that logic, instead of relying on epidemiological statistical data regarding the dangers of smoking, I should simply ask for the opinions of individual smokers. </p>
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<p>Surely you’re not advocating that they should blindly follow you instead? </p>
<p>Look, nobody should ever blindly follow anybody. That’s why I implore the readers to look at the data and the logic and make up their own minds.</p>
The reason I brought it up was because you were denying it in the first place. But that is not the point. The point is, as I have made clear in my previous post, you can’t make sweeping assumptions based on a few data points. Business organization are not universally hated. Just because you feel that way, doesn’t mean others do as well.</p>
<p>One thing everyone here seems to have overlooked is that the response rate and the unemployment rate are very different between biz and econ. I do not recall the exact numbers off the top of my head, but biz has a higher response rate than econ. Econ’s salary data is probably more skewed toward the higher end because of that (i.e. those who have no jobs or bad paying jobs are not going to report them, so only the ones who are making a decent salary are going to report them and be included in the econ survey).</p>
<p>Also, I think only ~5% of Haas grads are unemployed, versus ~15% of econ grads. Again, the salary data is not complete, because if we were to calculate the expected value of a biz degree, it would greatly exceed the expected value of an econ degree, since econ has so many students who are unemployed.</p>
<p>Speaking from the perspective of both a biz and econ student, I have to say that yes, the majors are very different. Biz is 100x more practical than econ, imo, and will get you the job that you want. The econ classes I took were theoretical and not much use in terms of performing on a job. That is not to say that econ is no good - on the contrary, I fought my parents to double major in econ (since they only wanted me to do biz) because I thought the subject matter was interesting. However, after taking more Haas classes, I have found them to be immensely valuable as well, perhaps even more so than econ classes. And I enjoy the looser structure and smaller classes at Haas. Econ is very traditional - large classes, then discussion session, with a few problem sets and then midterms and finals. The projects and groupwork and industry exposure that Haas provides is more interesting and useful to me.</p>
<p>I do not understand why people want to attack Haas. Are they bitter? Are they just unhappy and have to spread that around? Grow up, please.</p>
<p>And what’s wrong with the business clubs? There are good and nasty people everywhere, not just in one place. I personally never joined one because I did not want the large time commitment. But I am disgusted at how some people will paint others with one brush, yet claim that they themselves are so different. I am Chinese - does that make me an investment banker wannabe who is a robot that joins biz clubs? Of course not. That statement doesn’t even make sense.</p>
<p>I have met many nice, socially conscious, and extraordinary classmates at Haas. Maybe those who disagree are attracting the wrong types to themselves.</p>