<p>I am new to the forum, but am stumped this: My third son is interested in computer engineering, but I am strong believer in liberal arts educations. Can anybody comment on the pros and cons of doing a 3-2 program?</p>
<p>bump......</p>
<p>We considered a 3-2 program for my son and finally decided against it. He applied and was accepted to a very small LAC with a 3-2 program which fed into a very large university (his safety). We finally decided against it largely because it would mean transferring to a new school in the middle of his college years. However, my son has asperger's syndrome so transitions are especially hard for him and we felt starting over at a new school (especially a large university) at this point in his life would not benefit him at all, since he would be spending too much time and energy in adjusting to a new campus, leaving old friends/making new friends, getting involved in new ECs, and in particular, establishing relationships with new professors and at a time when his college career should be taking off as he gets further into the classes required for his major, internships/co-ops, senior projects, etc. </p>
<p>Another factor to consider is that many students end up changing their major and a university with multiple schools can more easily allow them to switch majors without having to switch schools.</p>
<p>Another thing my son pointed out is that as much as I think English/ history/ ocial studies courses will benefit him, these are not his strengths (and often are not for many engineers) and take up more of his study time than other courses. He is in the IB program at school which is very comparable to a liberal arts education yet in hindsight it might have been better for him if he had taken only the math/science IB courses. My son is also a hands on learner and even though he knows he has another 4 years plus of school, he is is eager to jump right into an engineering curriculum that will start to provide him with the practical skills he will need in the future.</p>
<p>My son ended up choosing a private university half the size of his safety (although further from home than I wanted) that will allow him flexibility in exploring and preparing for a career in engineering - one of the required courses for freshman engineering students is an Intro to Engineering. Right now he is considering minoring in physics, double majoring in physics and engineering or possibly even pursuing a 5-year Physics/Engineering BA/MS. The school also has an excellent co-op program which will provide real world experience and the chance to explore a variety of areas of engineering. </p>
<p>Bottom line, it all depends on the needs of student and what he/she wants to get out of college, what their strengths and weaknesses are, and whether the college(s) is a good fit. And then there is also that fifth year of tuition!!!</p>
<p>Cons: At the liberal arts college leg-
- No exposure to engineering during first years of college; therefore effectively no guidance as to what areas of engineering may interest you.
-None of your peers interested in engineering; consequently no peer reinforcement
- None of the faculty interested in, or knowledgeable about, engineering
- Have to leave all your friends in the mifddle to go to the engineering college</p>
<p>At the engineering college:
- No cons at all. Because very few people will ever get this far. Most people initially interested in the program will drop out of it to take a major at the LAC so they don't have to leave, or transfer to a real engineering college. IMO.</p>
<p>I met at a girl who went to an LAC and then transferred to a school that engineering for her last 2 years. She seemed to like it, but she was very outgoing and probably had no problem making new friends and adjusting. But she did say that she wished that she had just chosen a school that had engineering in the first place.</p>
<p>We considered the 3-2 to get a better all-around liberal arts background, however my son decided against it. The reasons are pretty much just as moneydad listed. He didn't want to leave at the end of junior year to start over. Also, once he did, there would be no guarantee that he would even like engineering because he would have no engineering courses for the first three years. Finally, if he did go on to years 4 and 5 in engineering, it would be a very rough schedule to have all of those classes packed into 4 semesters.</p>
<p>This is an interesting topic to me because my son falls into the category of someone who has many interests - everything from physics to philosophy - and he has also also expressed an interest in engineering. He's only a junior in high school, so his interests and goals <em>might</em> become clearer as he begins to look at schools, but it seems unlikely. </p>
<p>So, we will be looking at LACS with 3-2 options, as well as universities where he can enter as an undecided major and possibly transfer into the engineering school without major difficulty. The last seems particularly tricky to find. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions as to questions we should ask about or look for in 3-2 programs or suggestions for universities where transferring into engineering isn't impossible? Thanks.</p>
<p>1) For 3-2 programs, ask:
a) How many individuals have actually completed this program over the last three years?
b) Is the admissions to the engineering school automatic? Or rather is it subject to applying after-the-fact to the engineering school, and then having to be accepted by the engineering school? and isn't it the case that acceptance actually is not guaranteed by the engineering school, but rather is highly contingent and discretionary? In fact, isn't this pretty much the same deal as applying to transfer to that same engineering school? Isn't this actually largely just a marketing ploy for the LAC, to make it look like they have engineering "covered" there, when actually they have nothing?</p>
<p>Refer back to post #6 above. I believe this "program" does not really work, in practice, for most interested students.</p>
<p>2) For schools where you might be able to switch to engineering:</p>
<p>Most schools, probably, if you've done ok in your science and math courses. There is very little difference, in the first year particularly, between the courses an engineer takes and the courses a physical sciences major takes at a liberal arts college. Plus, there's relatively high attrition in many engineering colleges, so seats will likely be available for well-qualified transfer applicants. If you've taken these basic courses and done well your transfer chances are very high IMO.</p>
<p>LACs which may facilitate switching majors between liberal arts & engineering: you'd have to check, but in my day I looked at:Bucknell, Union, Trinity College. But I can't guarantee that the engineering offerings at teeny programs will really meet the needs of a committed engineer very well. Each would have to be investigated as to: # of engineering courses offered, # of engineering professors, # of engineering majors offered.</p>
<p>Thanks MonyDad. You advice is very helpful. I think our best bet is to make sure he includes at least some schools - whether LACs or smaller universities - on his list where transferring into enginneering is a possiblity. One other question -- is it at all possible to major in math or physics as an undergraduate and then do engineering in a graduate program, or would you mostly be looking at a second Bachelor's at that point?</p>
<p>I actually wound up doing just that.</p>
<p>And I think it's less than ideal.</p>
<p>You actually miss a lot not taking the "real" engineering curriculum. There were holes in my engineering education that were never remediated, and I felt like it may have made some difference later on.</p>
<p>Even if someone were to major in physics in a liberal arts college, I think it would be important to be able to take some engineering courses right along (as I did). Otherwise you are choosing blind. IMO. </p>
<p>I would not recommend attending a university that does not even offer engineering if this is really an option to be kept alive.</p>
<p>I was actually deciding between Macalester's 3-2 program with the university of Minnesota and Trinity College's own engineering program. After reading everything above, I think I should go with trinity although I want to do ChemE and Minnesota is one of the best for that.
I guess I can always go to Minnesota for Grad school</p>
<p>Actually, MAcalester-U MInn MIGHT be different. Suggest before you rule it out, check with Macalester re: details, along the lines discussed above.</p>
<p>A 3-2 program COULD make sense, in a few selected cases. IF you can take engineering courses right along. The two colleges need to be very nearby for this to happen. Generally they aren't. But in this particular case, they actually are.</p>
<p>It would be physically possible there to take courses at both schools at the same time, and to attend one school without completely abandoning all your friends from the other school. Unlike the general case.</p>
<p>So this is one situation where the program could make sense if they've implemented it to make sense. Maybe see if they have.</p>
<p>There is really no perfect solution to this situation. The programs like Trinity's are likely to have it all right there, but their course offerings and opportunities in engineering are likely to be less comprehensive than U Minnesota. By a lot.</p>
<p>Thanks Moneydad!! I'll check that right away</p>
<p>This is what they said :</p>
<hr>
<p>Hi Waleed - </p>
<p>The Admissions Office forwarded your inquiry to our office (Registrar), so I'll try to provide some basic information about the 3-2 program in Engineering.
This program requires 5 years of study - the first 3 must be done at Macalester, and the final 2 years at the University of Minnesota. During the 3 years at
Macalester, you are required to complete at least 96 credits, and all other graduation requirements. There are likely other requirements as well, which you would
address to the program advisor, Danny Kaplan, who is a professor in our Math department.</p>
<p>Macalester doesn't normally accept transfer credit in Engineering courses, so we wouldn't likely accept Engineering transfer work from the U of MN if you were
to take courses there just to 'try them out'. The 3-2 program at the U has been designed as a sort of 'package' whereby you complete 3 years here followed by
2 years at the U of MN in an approved course of study in Engineering. At the end of the 5th year, provided you've completed all graduation and program requirements, you'd earn both a B.A. from Macalester and a B.S. from the U of MN.</p>
<hr>
<p>do you think its still worth it ?</p>
<p>Just my opinion, FWIW: No I don't think it's worth it. If I understood them correctly.</p>
<p>.</p>
<p>waleedk87: </p>
<p>Another thing you might want to check out is the possibility of taking a few courses at the University of St. Thomas while at Macalaster; they actually have a very small engineering program (electrical and mechanical only), but they are also part of a group of LAC's in the Twin Cities where you are able to take some courses at any of the other colleges if you are enrolled at one of them (Macalaster, Hamline, St. Thomas, Augsburg, St. Catherine's); so even if you were to enroll at Macalaster you might be able to take some basic engineering courses at St. Thomas before transferring to the U of MN. We were actually playing around with this idea when considering Augsburg/U of MN but then decided not to pursue 3-2 so didn't look into it further.</p>
<h2>Aaah Mac replied again</h2>
<p>Waleed - </p>
<p>We would not accept engineering classes from the University of St. Thomas - sorry about that.</p>
<p>After your 3 years at Macalester, you are technically not a student here anymore....and are a student at the University of Minnesota. Therefore I'm quite certain
that you would not be allowed to live at Macalester during that time.</p>
<p>Your best and most accurate information about your overall educational experience and living arrangements would come from the International Center here
at Macalester. I would strongly advise you to be in touch with them about anything beyond what we've discussed here!</p>
<p>Julie</p>
<h2>Registrar's Office</h2>
<p>Now I'm really confused - Trinity College or Mac? I think trinity college seems better considering that their graduates get into Top Grad schools so getting into University of Minnesota after graduation will be possible.</p>
<p>I don't know what you're confused about.</p>
<p>All I can share is, from what you've printed here, it is my opinion that if you go to Macalester and don't transfer out after a year you will probably not become an engineer.</p>
<p>Other than that, they are two different schools, each with their own various attractive features to commend them.</p>
<p>I am also seriously considering the 3-2 program with Columbia, but not in enngineering but in applied math. In that case, does it make sense?</p>
<p>check out the UC Santa Cruz / UC Berkeley 3/2 program... I'm going into it next year...</p>