How big should a high school be?

Parents Forum
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<p>An extremely controversial solution to the question of AP/Honors classes being limited in small schools is to teach only AP and Honors classes, and not offer the "lower-level" classes. And yes, some choices have to be made. It may not be possible in a small school to offer two foreign languages. </p>

<p>A small school that I have worked in requires ALL students to take all subjects all four years of HS. So: no study halls, no electives. Everyone takes math all four years, everyone takes history, everyone takes foreign language, PE, etc. I would argue that this approach assures that all students have a good preparation for college, whether they like it or not. However, a few students transfer out--mostly in search of more flexibility. And yes, some kids repeat a year of a subject before they can move on. </p>

<p>The question in my mind: do small schools offer a better education at the expense of more choice, or does the larger flexibility of high schools offer a better education? Personally, I come down on less choice, smaller schools, just as I am in favor of required courses at the college level. I really do believe that children and young adults need more direction and guidance in their education, not less, and that there's a strong societal role for the idea of core learning.</p>

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<p>dmd:
As you know, one can take 4 years of math. But what kind of math? Should kids who can't do long divisions be in the same math class as kids who are clearly headed toward a math/science career? Should all kids take precalc, or would some benefit more from business math or statistics? </p>

<p>We had the equivalent of small schools before, even though they were housed in the same big building; over time, they acquired their own character and became very segregated. Not good. In my S's House, there were honors classes; the majority of kids were headed to 4-year college. The GC knew about elite schools and fit. Not coincidentally, they were overwhelmingly white and middle class, with a sprinkling of Asians. In another, there were no honors classes; all the bilingual kids were placed there. In yet another, there was a preponderance of low SES kids who also happened to be struggling academically. The GC knew about NCAA requirements and athletic scholarships but little about LACs and elite schools.
Several years ago, a new principal tried to deal with these inequalities by not only getting rid of the existing houses and converting them to 5 small schools, but also introducing heterogeneous classes. So students reading at the 5th grade level were put together with students who'd scored high on the SATs as 7th graders. I'd love nothing more than having all honors and AP classes, but that would do nothing for kids who come into high school not knowing their multiplication tables.</p>

<p>Small schools can be great if the range of abilities and interests of the kids is not as wide as it is in our very diverse district and the students not so transient. I think we've reached as good a compromise between serving a highly diverse population (in terms of SES, cultural backgrounds, academic interests and abilities). Each pair of deans is in charge of 400 students; each GC is responsible for about 200 students. Students can take classes across small schools (my S's schedule would have been totally unworkable otherwise) and teachers and GCs work together across the larger school to provide the same level of service and hold the same learning expectations. We've gone through major upheaval and the results, in terms of student performance, will not be known for a while.</p>

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<p>We have a lot of kids who come to school with lower than average reading level.
When a group of parents went to the legislature recently we asked for help finding funding to bring these kids up to standards.While one legislator personally offered to help find private funding until public funding could be found, another told us that we should just require all parents to read to their kids 20 min a night that would do away with learning problems!
lordy
Some teachers work better with boys- some better with linear learners- some like group, I like bigger schools so that you have more choices of what teacher for your child.
Unlike the recent writer to the Seattle weekly who thinks that if people like a school they should just move near it, I am wondering what if you have two kids and they need something very different?
a friend is interested in a Seattle public school for her daughter that supposedly has good test scores but considering its demographics ( location- income & race) It better. It also doesn't have any sports or many school clubs to speak of, even though her daughter is a jock who plays on a team each season.
She is planning on putting that for her daughters first choice, despite her wishes, and I am wondering, if for high school parents aren't taking their childrens needs and wants into account, are they planning on picking their college too?
I see I have rambled a bit here but I think my point was that what matters is that your student can get connected to the school in some way. My daughter really wanted to attend her high school despite my misgivings and my decision to go with her wants has helped to propel her to a new level of success</p>

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<p>I don't feel that my kids' small schools limited their choices significantly or that they lost out on AP classes. In fact, when my son was considering a larger high school because of the greater array of electives -- I pulled out the list of required course for the UC system and showed him that once he signed up for the basic college prep track, he would have very little room left for electives. One of the things my son's school did to make up for it was an interim week in the spring, where rather than regular classes, the teachers would all give week-long intensives in an area of their choice, and the kids would end up taking something entirely different. That was always fun and everyone really looked forward to it. </p>

<p>Even with the small schools, my kids' classes tend to be rather large; at my son's high school, the AP English class was over-enrolled and they had to add a second class. The foreign language classes at my daugher's school are pretty much filled to capacity, with 4 years available in 3 different languages.</p>

<p>So I think it really depends on the school culture more than the size. If there is more of an academic bent, then the courses will be there. </p>

<p>Neither of my kids attended academic magnet schools, by the way. My son was the first person anyone at his school could remember who scored well enough on the PSAT to make semifinalist; his high school offered open enrollment to anyone in the district. So the demand for AP classes is a matter of attitude, not numbers.</p>

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<p>Electives is a red herring. I'm talking about having different kinds of math and science classes for kids with different levels of ability and career paths.
The key to a student success is smaller classes. No use having a school of 300 if there are 40 kids per class. </p>

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46

<p>Marite: the reality on the west coast is that any class in any public high school in any west coast city will range in size from 30 up. My district aims for an average class size of 32 in the high school; this is stated in the union contract. Teachers who have more than 36 students in any one class can be paid extra. And that's for five sections.</p>

<p>On the math thing, in some small schools, kids take the same math class until they pass. So a gifted ninth grader taking pre-calc would be in the same class with a senior who's taken four years to get to pre-calc.</p>

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<p>My wife comes from a country in which the typical class size was 60 students. (To be sure, this was during the Baby Boom, when typical class sizes in my part of the United States were about 30 students.) Extraordinarily small classes in those days might have only 50 students. That didn't stop kids from learning a lot of things that most Americans don't learn in their school lessons. The differences in school practices that matter more than size matters are detailed in such books as The</a> Learning Gap.</p>

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<p>Marite, the small high schools out here tend to have a specialized focus or educational philosophy - they do not have the range of students that a regular, large high school has. So for example, my daughter attends a high school with an arts focus -- the kids who have more of a math & science bent would tend to select a different school.</p>

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<p>tokenadult: My own classes never had less than 40 students. I had a great education. But I also know girls who were never called on, whose names barely registered with the teacher and who failed their bac time and again. </p>

<p>Dmd: A true story: in a 9th grade general science class, the teacher announced: "We will test three items. For each item, we will conduct three tests. How many tests will we be conducting in total?" She pointed to a student who could not answer. Twenty minutes passed. Finally, one student could not contain himself any longer and yelled out :"Nine!" He was reprimanded for interfering with the other student's opportunity to learn. Stories like that caused parents to demand the return of honors classes (others voted with their feet or their pocketbooks, either moving to other districts or enrolling their kids in private schools). As well, some parents argued that the lack of honors classes pushed their above average kids into AP classes in subjects they were not terribly interested in and where they were bound to struggle (and slow down others). So now we have CP, Honors, and AP classes; we have business math and other flavors of remedial math, regular and honors algebra and geometry and AP-Calc AB and BC (more advanced students are sent to the Extension School).</p>

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<p>calmom:</p>

<p>The specialized focus was a cause of concern for parents who wanted to retain diversity. We also had a policy of random assignment taking into account SES, zip code and gender. This caused concern for families whose children wanted to pursue specific interest; at the same time, it was feared that all Asians (9% of the school population) might end up in the math/science school, thus undermining diversity if they were given a choice, or would be denied their desire to have a focus on math/science if scattered among different small schools for the sake of diversity. Even with the half-way structure we had (taking into account language of choice when assigning students), it became clear that those who listed Latin (available at two of the five small schools) were the more high achieving students. The trend thus seemed toward a return toward self-segregation by academic ability and SES. This is one reason why Latin is now available to students in all small schools, and why the move toward autonomous small schools has been reversed.</p>

51

<p>A HS needs to be large enough to somehow meet the needs of about 8 years of math learning- from consumer math through IB Higher or BC/Calculus in order to accomodate 99+% of kids (which seems reasonable if you do the math)...</p>

<p>But a HS also needs to be large enough so that the kid in consumer math who is a talented photographer, poet, historian, violinist, technologist or shot putter has a chance to be at the top end of the spectrum in whatever they are good at. Otherwise, all they see (and their parents and peers) of themselves is what they struggle in. </p>

<p>Our school has 800 kids and seems about right in size, though for kids with a "manual arts" bent the pickings are somewhat slim-- There are regular, AP, IB (no Honors..) in all domains, including the Arts, technology, etc. 3-4 Varsity teams/season, lots of other ECs pursued in great depth (drama, forensics, MUN, music, etc). There are technology classes (through completion of year I of Cisco networking!) and design classes as well. Perfect size, to my way of thinking (not perfect in other ways, maybe, but pretty darn okay). </p>

<p>All the richness of a school falls away, however, if the non-academic offerings aren't "valued" in the same way as the "strict" academics are. The job is not to produce well rounded kids, but kids who know their strengths and have a chance to pursue them in depth..and to be acknowledged for this. A size of 600-1000 seems just about right to me to allow this to happen.</p>

<p>Michael Thompson's book on pressured kids has some interesting content about what HS kids "need"- a chance to test the limits of their abilities, a chance to challenge their thinking on ideas, a chance to feel they can leave their mark- a sense of affiliation, a sense of ritual (among other things)...I think these things, as much as course offerings, should frame discussion of size...</p>

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<p>Roby:</p>

<p>I agree with your description of the ideal school, though I would err on the higher end-- 1000 instead of 600--as you note, your 800-student school has a limited range of art of offerings. I would have been happy if our school had been split into two rather than 5.</p>

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<p>Marite,
Actually the limits are not the visual or performing arts, which we have in abundance, but more hands on-mechanical arts sort of things. For the kid who is great with their hands and going to do something of that ilk later on, a HS like ours, or a lot of schools, are less than ideal. With bigger numbers, our school would probably add more languages, technology offerings, but probably not mechanical arts sorts of things-- just the nature of our school. </p>

<p>My HS had 150....way too small. There is a critical mass needed, definitely, to cover even 1 standard deviation from the mean on most subject areas (!!)...</p>

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<p>Our local high school has around 125 students, 25 in the senior class, It offers no AP or honor classes, and thats about the only negative that I can see. What it does offer is the oppurtunity for ALL the students to be involved in a wide variety of extra cirruclar experiences. I sharply disagree with the notion that kids need to be at the top end of the spectrum in what they choose. I think that small is more inclusive that you can be a shot putter have a role in the school play, play in the band, and write for the newspaper, not so much because the student excels but rather because the students participation is required and encuraged</p>

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<p>i_j,
Sorry, but I disagree with the scatter shot approach. I think a school should be small enough to that kids can participate in a wide range of areas that they are potentially interested and capable in, but large enough that there is some depth in what they really love so that they can have the feeling of being very capable, and expert in something. They need to learn that we are not all capable of performing well at everything we do (or very, very few of us are, that is). Also, I think they need to learn about trade-offs, about choosing, about sometimes making wrong choices. </p>

<p>Schools of a mid range 600-1000 are plenty inclusive (at least ours is)..for the most part kids get roles in plays, play on teams, etc, etc who try out...but they also get to push themselves to a higher level and figure out what they are really good at. Sometimes they try out and don't make it, and they learn from that, too..</p>

<p>No one in college will require participation, no one in life will require participation. Adults are pretty much not well rounded. We do what we are good at, or what we really want to try to get better at. Part of HS life is preparing for real life, and in this sense forced participation does kids a dis-service.</p>

<p>Schools in remote locations offer other "value" by virtue of the feelings of community, continuity, tradition and connectedness. But, as far as size of school is concerned, my personal experience would suggest that 125 is too small...</p>

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<p>Roby:</p>

<p>Our hs has a great vocational program. It had been deteriorating and was nearly eliminated during the botched restructuring. It's been revived and offers a range of courses from culinary arts, carpentry, graphic arts, to biotechnology. The vocational program was one of the reasons we did not move toward totally autonomous small schools.</p>

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<p>Marite,
If our school even gave passing thought to more vocational course offerings the Asian parents(sorry to stereotype, maybe some American parents would too, but not so many!) would go running elsewhere, and the school knows it...it is a luxury for kids to have a chance to explore these things integrated with a strong academic curriculum..I would think. Our school delves in with tech-laden options only.</p>

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<p>My high school had ~1600 students, maybe slightly less. It was one of the smaller schools in the area. There were 2 levels of practically every class, regular and pre-IB or IB. 5 years of German/French/Spanish were offered, and 3 years of American Sign Langauge and Latin. Math was offered from Algebra 1 to IB Higher (Calc II+), with essentially 4 options senior year of statistics, math studies (kinda like pre calc level math with real world application), calc 1, and calc 2. 3 years of computer science were offered, as well as classes in computer graphics and some business. 2 years of bio, chem, and physics were offered, as well as a year of geosystems. All classes were under 30 kids.</p>

<p>I believe the biggeset thing the state required to graduate was 4 years of history and English... so theoretically, other than those 2 classes, you could fill the rest of your schedule with electives senior year.</p>

<p>I think my biggest problem with a small school with only a few hundred students is the other programs that suffer outside of academics, namely things such as music. If I wasn't able to continually play challenging music in high school, I probably would have quit playing. If there's just one band/orchestra/choir and everyone's in it, that really limits the group in what they can pursue. A larger school gives a larger chance that there will be that one thing that the child finds to really carry them through high school, the one thing they are passionate about outside of the classroom.</p>

<p>I don't think it's important to know everyone in your graduating class, and you may be better off if you don't. Would you rather know a few people well or a lot of people casually? I guess people have differing opinions on that.</p>

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<p>One comment about class size - it is possible to teach a class of 40 or a total student responsibility of over 200 but it is not practical to try to grade 200 papers in a weekend. At ten minutes a paper that would be 2,000 minutes or 33+ hours. The larger the classes the more likely the teacher will need to use scantron tests for grading and that can detract from the educational experience.</p>

<p>Large homogenious classes can be easier to manage than a class where some of the students have cultural or personal needs that require additional attention. I prefer a class size of under 25 with a student work load of under 125 students. It gives me a chance to understand who they are, what motivates them and how I can help them to succeed.</p>

<p>School size - I graduated in a class of 48 before their were AP classes. My son and daughter were/are in schools with 400+ in the graduating class and an abundance of AP classes to choose from. I see advantages in each of these schools, but I think I would prefer a school with about 1200. I also see a need to look at the middle schools that feed the high schools. It isn't fair that a student coming from a middle school that doesn't offer Algebra or Geometry will have their high school achievement compared with someone who was allowed to take those classes and as a result can take more challenging classes in high school.. Carryon.</p>

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<p>I agree with you about the ideal school size and the ideal class size (ours are capped at 30, but 25 would be better).</p>

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<p>The worst thing is to put these students in the same classes--which is was what done in our hs both out of ideology (the high achieving ones were supposed to help raise standards for the struggling students) and necessity, smaller schools providing a smaller range of classes. Interestingly, while the parents of high achieving students were the most vocally opposed to the loss of honors classes, the struggling students expressed deep unhappiness at their inability to shine when put in classes with students who were so much more advanced than they. One student said: "Why should I make the effort when I know I won't get above a low C at best?"</p>