How can I get through to my dad?

Parent Cafe
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<p>First, Yale doesn’t have ED. It has SCEA. Unless dad is an unusually large donor to Yale, the idea that jingle is a “lock” to be admitted to Yale just isn’t true. </p>

<p>UWisconsin-Madison OOS is going to cost about $45,000 a year. Is the price worth it over in state at U of Illinois? Dad may not think so. There are at least some parents out there who are willing to pay sticker price at HYPSMC vs. the in-state cost of a good state school like U of Illinois, but are NOT willing to pay a sticker price which isn’t all that much lower for an OOS public. And, believe me, I’m NOT knocking UWisc-Mad. It’s a great school. </p>

<p>It’s great that jingle is concerned about cost. However, trying to convince dad that U Wisconsin -Madison makes financial sense to save $ for med school is, IMO, a non-starter. </p>

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<p>Actually, majoring in biology is immensely popular, including with pre-meds, and it shares most frosh/soph courses with pre-med requirements, so it is not like doing pre-med will automatically put one in the elite subset of a given school. But not being in the elite subset of one’s school means that competition for the top grades in the grading curves of the pre-med courses won’t be as harsh. It is, however, true that some elite schools have very high grade inflation.</p>

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<p>@rebecca17‌ - I liked Wisconsin a lot, it was a beautiful campus with a great vibe to it. It’s nice to have a campus and then be able to walk into Madison and see the capital and go to State Street and all the events there. They have a great psychology program. I have relatives not too far away. Northwestern is too close to home for my taste. My parents would be there all the time, and I’d be expected to come home too often. While I will be applying to both Michigan and WashU, I’ve been told not to get my hopes up on them. You seem to think my stats make me a much more qualified applicant than many other people I’ve talked to think. Also, Yale is need blind in admissions. While I am a full pay, they say they don’t factor need into admitting students.</p>

<p>I haven’t really looked into UIUC because so many kids from my school go there, but maybe I should. Hopefully the size means I’ll never have to see most of them. Does anyone know what its strongest majors are? I’m interested in areas like psychology, cognitive science, behavioral biology, neuroscience, and genetics, on a pre-med track.</p>

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<p>“Miami, I hope your D’s attitudes towards everyone who went to “prestigious” schools isn’t as bad as yours”

  • I never mentioned this at all, this seems to be some "bad translation’ of what I said. I said that some are so used to deal strictly with “superior intellectuallity” of a very homogenious crowd of the student body at top colleges that they would put a regular person down at any ocasion. But I said “some”, not everyone. There are very mature and easy going people who graduted from these top places, and this is who my D. wants to be with, no matter what was their UG. She definitely would stay away from anybody who would not let her to open her mouth during group discussions (possibly because they are so “superior” that nobody else is important there). D. has lots of friends in her Med. school class and I am sure that many are from Harvard and such as her class has many from Elite colleges, which you find in any Med. School class as those kids know how to work hard and get results and that was original reason why they were so carefully pre-selected at HYP, Berkeley, etc. But they did not have many chances to mature at this places since the crowd there is not as diverse (I am not talking about racial or socioeconomic diversity, I am talking about intellectual diversity, personality difversity). These places want to have kids who produce academic results, very focused, intense. They want to report high acceptance rates to Med. Schools, Law Schools, etc. At public state school, kids who really seek diversity can easily go outside of their Honors colleges and pre-med communities and connect with different type of people, they learned how to talk to them and enjoy conversations outside of intense acdemics of pre-meds. Now that D. is a bit more familiar with at least one private UG (which was her original #1 choice for UG, eventually she ended up at her #2),. she simply said, “if I went there, I would be in the same type of crowd as in my HS” (small private), she just wanted to widen up her social horizon outside of kids whose parents are primarily MDs, lawyers, businees executives,…etc. which was primarily the case at her HS.</p>
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<p>@MiamiDAP‌ something tells me your tune would have changed if your she brought home a sixth year slacker, who was storming through a communications degree, while distracting your daughter from top grades. It’s great that it worked out for your family, but most people believe the benefits of an intellectually thick student body trump the “intellectual diversity” (which honestly sounds pretty crackpot to me). I like to be around ambitious people. It’s fun and it pushes me.</p>

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<p>There are plenty of ambitious, smart people at every state flagship. Are they in the minority at most? Perhaps, if your only criteria for determining who’s smart and ambitious is standardized test scores and double-digit AP credits. Nonetheless, you won’t find many intellectually inferior students in most STEM majors. And there are plenty of very bright students in most majors.</p>

<p>There are lots of good reasons to choose an “elite” college or university, but this whole state-school-students-are-inferior meme is just ridiculous. Lots of smart and ambitious students are also practical and frugal, so they forgo a pricey elite school education for an excellent value at a flagship or other suitable public school.</p>

<p>@rebecca17, you sound a lot like another high-schooler who’s sported a lot of different names here on CC and seems to be very good at handing out advice on things you have no firsthand experience with. Remind us which colleges you’ve applied to and been accepted at, please! And who’s your inside source at Yale? Do tell!</p>

<p>OP, you sound like a very bright and level-headed young woman. By all means, apply to Yale and see what happens. Do this out of respect for your father. Apply early also to some schools that will offer you substantial merit money and entrance into an honors college and/or other elite programs for your stats, and then choose some schools YOU love to apply to. You’ll likely have a nice range of choices when the time comes to choose next spring. Good luck!</p>

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<p>@jinglebells85: Some UW-Madison - related links you might like, in no particular order:</p>

<p><a href=“Chancellor Rebecca Blank takes the Ice Bucket Challenge for ALS - YouTube”>Chancellor Rebecca Blank takes the Ice Bucket Challenge for ALS - YouTube;

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-wisconsin-madison/”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-wisconsin-madison/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“Zooniversity - Teach Me How To Bucky [Cascia Films] - YouTube”>Zooniversity - Teach Me How To Bucky [Cascia Films] - YouTube;

<p><a href=“http://www.honors.ls.wisc.edu/”>http://www.honors.ls.wisc.edu/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://www.prehealth.wisc.edu/”>http://www.prehealth.wisc.edu/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://www.lssaa.wisc.edu/scholarships/”>http://www.lssaa.wisc.edu/scholarships/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“Office of Student Financial Aid – UW–Madison”>Office of Student Financial Aid – UW–Madison;

<p><a href=“https://www.housing.wisc.edu/crc”>https://www.housing.wisc.edu/crc&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“Global Café is Back for Spring – University Housing – UW–Madison”>https://www.housing.wisc.edu/crc/global&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>OP you may not ‘like’ UIUC and maybe you will. You should at least apply to in-state options. I wouldn’t be too concerned about other students from your HS - big enough campus; you might see people and you might not.</p>

<p>U MN might be a great option. Glad you are completing application process.</p>

<p>Talk to you parents about Northwestern - if their expectations will be reduced for you coming home, it is a great option. Talk to them about your concerns.</p>

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<p>rebecca17, you have made a lot of assumptions about the OP and her family that may or may not be true. She is NOT a private day school student. Her father is evidently a lawyer, and it sounds as if he makes an excellent living, but we have no statement that he is with Winston Strawn or Sidley Austin or the like. (I agree that he is unlikely to be as unsophisticated about college admissions as some would suggest.) Moreover, not only do we know nothing about her course rigor, but she estimates that her class rank is maybe top 15%. Unless she is being unduly modest–and she does sound like a modest person, which is usually NOT what Yale is looking for–she does not have the numbers to be a top candidate for Yale, even with legacy.</p>

<p>Despite your assumptions, I, for one, and well acquainted with Ivy admissions and a firm believer in what they have to offer. I generally think that going to the best school you can get into in order to have the best possible undergraduate educate is the way to go. (Assuming that it is not going to beggar you now and in the future.) I think she should give Yale a shot, and if she is going to do it, she should go SCEA to maximize her chances. (BTW, OP, you should DEFINITELY include an extra recommendation from Erika’s Lighthouse, and one from your employer would be good too. That would give you a total of five: 2 teachers, the GC, work, and volunteering. That’s a fine selection, but don’t go beyond that.)</p>

<p>I agree with others that UW-M is a great place, but it is not going to be a bargain. If the OP wants to stay closer to the midwest, but not too close to Chicago, as she says, she should probably be looking at other schools, too. Wash U is on her list already. How about Cornell, Carleton, U Rochester, Pitt, U Michigan, Michigan State, Macalester, St. Olaf, Vanderbilt, even Rice? (I know some of these aren’t technically in “the midwest,” but they are also perhaps more relaxed than the Yales of this world, which may be what she really wants.)</p>

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<p>“The point of this thread though, was asking for some facts and statistics i can use to show that kids who go to colleges that aren’t super duper elite can still get into good med schools and go on to have successful careers. I know I need to look for merit aid, and I am.”</p>

<p>All accredited US med schools are good schools and can provide basis for successful med careers. Getting into one is the hard part no matter what the name at the top of your college diploma says. I went to a couple of residency websites (UCLA, Northwestern, Yale) as these institutions are well regarded and should be familiar to father. I pulled some random faculty names to show one can have a successful career in medicine from various college and med schools, even as osteoapths. </p>

<p>Neveen El-Farra, MD, Assistant Clinical Professor, Medicine UCLA (went to Chicago Medical School at Rosalind Franklin, then UCLA for residency).</p>

<p>Robert Udelsman, MD, Chair Dept. of Surgery Yale, graduated from Lafayette College, George Washington med school.</p>

<p>Anub Abraham, DO, Instructor in Medicine Northwestern, went to Western University of Health Sciences, Osteopathic Medicine, U of Illinois for residency </p>

<p>Stephen L Adams MD, Professor in Medicine, Emergency Medicine and Orthopedic Surgery at Northwestern), went to Ohio State University med school, residency at Northwestern.</p>

<p>Abby Agulnek DO, Assistant Professor in Internal Medicine, went to Chicago College of Ostepathic Medicine, (went to Northwestern for residency)</p>

<p>Christopher B Beach MD, Associate Professor Emergency Medicine at Northwestern. went to UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, Brooke Army Medical Center for residency, </p>

<p>Nathaniel Soper MD, Chair of Dept. of Surgery Northwestern, went to U Iowa med school, Utah for residency.</p>

<p>Also, as you indicated your family’s life is in a state of flux at the same time you are nearing an important life decision. As others have opined, I believe you should consider applying broadly to schools you would consider, if anything to see a variety of financial aid packages. Then both your parents have to be straight up with you, can you RELY on their financial support as you do not want to be saddled with an obscene amount of debt coming out of college and facing prospect of med school debt. As a note, I have no problem with a college student having some skin in the game and having some debt upon graduating college.</p>

<p>Good luck to you.</p>

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<p>If you’re serious about med school, check out the premed info on line at the colleges of interest to you. At some schools, anyone who wants to can apply to med school. At others, there is an internal procedure whereby a school “endorses” applications–if your application is not “endorsed” it can be almost impossible to get letters of recommendation. Find out what percentage of med school applicants are accepted–and be careful NOT to compare the % for schools that allow everyone to apply and those that don’t. Apples and oranges. Check out the medium MCAT scores. </p>

<p>Take some time to read the med school forum on this site. </p>

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<p>I’m sorry, I wasn’t trying to spin discussion into a premed topic. OP indicated father believed there was one way for college (Yale, or perhaps other elite school) and then maybe onto med school, whereas OP seemed to want to go another way for college, maybe med school. OP asked for facts that she could use to show her father that would support her position that there were other alternatives than Yale. I tried to show that it was rather easy to find people who had been successful in medicine and reached positions, some quite prominent, at elite medical programs (including Yale) via pathways that didn’t involve going through the elite college/med school route. I suspect that I could just as easily find people in corporate, legal, etc worlds who had success through less elite college/professional school pathways as well</p>

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<p>@Jugulator20‌ - Thank you, I appreciate these names and schools they went to. What search term did you use to find them? I always seem to have a problem with using search terms that don’t lead me to the info I’m looking for. Hopefully I can find more names, and hopefully they’ll mean something to my dad. Maybe I can make him a little pamphlet or something. Do you know by any chance if the GPA & MCAT scores for these people are made available to anyone looking for them? I can search, but I can’t find it if the info isn’t there.</p>

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<p>You may want to point out to him what medical school costs:
<a href=“https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/”>https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/&lt;/a&gt;
Therefore, it would make sense to save money on undergraduate.</p>

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<p>“I like to be around ambitious people. It’s fun and it pushes me.”
-yes, there are plenty of these type absolutely everywhere. You may assume that every #1 ranked is applying to Harvard and such. Incorrrect assumption. Many of them smart enough and mature enough to stant their ground and instead to be part of Honors colleges or some privates on a full tuition Merit. I am talking about kids who would be accepted to Harvard, but instead choose not spend lots of money in UG while aiming at Grad. School. As I have mentioned, D’s Honors college required to be top 2% and ACT=31+, it claims 100% acceptance to the Med. School. Here you have your “intellectual” community, however, these kids did not need to be pushed by anybody, they pushed themselves plenty and were pushing everybody else. However, they also had opportunitiy to meet with people outside of these Honors/pre-med circle, kids with different interests, maybe not heavily into science, but excessling in other aspects of life. Social interrations with variety of people is great for personal growth.<br>
But at the end, I say, if one feels that he/she belongs in Harvard, go for it (hopefully somebody is funding you so that you are not going into debt, I mean funding in both UG and Grad. school). However, if person does not feel like going to Ivy / Elite, this self-drven student WILL FIND plenty of UGs where they excell, simply because they do not need any push from anybody (but talking about pre-med, you have to push yourself, there is not other way, you will not be accepted anywhere if you are not this type of person, having college GPA below 3.6 is not a good idea at all and one should aim ata 4.0 at any place, Harvard or un-known local college, and that is what Med. Schools are looking for, not the name of your UG). As I said before, we are paying for D’s Med. School for 2 reasons: because she worked so hard to earn her Merit award and because she choose her UG smartly, since only 2 have offerred her full tuition or close to it. Otherwise, she would have been in $300k debt after graduation from Med. School. Is it attractive prospect? I guess it is for some, but I do not see any positives here. D. is not inferior to anybody in her Med. School class with majority from Ivy’s / Elites. Not by the feedbacks that she has been receiving. So, why 75% of Med. School graduates CHOOSE to graduate with that much debt, while they ALL quilify for Merits somewhere being cream of the crop caliber students. This is a very confusing to me. </p>

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<p>jinglebells85:The bios I found do not include GPAs/LSATS/MCATS, etc. In my opinion and I believe you will find out, GPAs, standardized tests scores, number/grades in AP courses, etc, only are important to gain admission to a college, advanced program, etc. Once you’re accepted nobody will care anymore about this info (except you, parents, grandparents) and you will not be able to find this info on people’s bios, resumes, CVs, etc…</p>

<p>As I have S in a medical residency program, my mind just went to thinking about med residencies. So I googled different elite/super elite residency programs and went rather quickly through alphabetical lists of faculties to try to demonstrate that one can go to a good, not necessarily an elite college/med school, and still be successful. Two of the people I found are Chairs of Surgery (Yale, Northwestern).</p>

<p>After your response and to carry my point further I did search for best Chicago law firms and began looking through alphabetical lists of lawyers at two firms and quickly found.</p>

<p>At Kirkland and Ellis law firm:
Kenneth R. Adamo - Partner
Albany Law School
Rennselaer Polytechnic Institute for college</p>

<p>Dario Avram - Partner
George Washington University Law School
UC San Diego for college</p>

<p>At Sidley Austin law firm
Hugh Abrams – Partner
Graduated law and college from u of Illinois.</p>

<p>I next searched biggest Illinois corporations and found Archer Daniels Midland. The Chairman of the Board and CEO (Patricia A. Woertz) graduated from Penn State (not Penn the Ivy) with a BA in accounting. One Chicago Trib article indicated her total yearly compensation package was roughly 15 million.</p>

<p>I assume your father was a very intelligent, hardworking student with a great application as being the core reason he was accepted at Yale University and/or Yale law. Graduating from Yale is a very, very nice cherry on one’s career cake. I’ll guess that he has had a successful law career as have many other graduates of elite programs. But as my quick searches indicate, it’s not the only way to go nor does it assure a successful career, or happiness in life.</p>

<p>Getting back to financial aid, as I recall from days our family filled out aid forms, an aid offer was only good for one year and you had to reapply each year. So in your discussion with BOTH parents you may want to ask if you can rely on their financial support to continue after first year if you eventually choose to go out on a limb at an elite school, especially considering your family’s changing circumstances. </p>

<p>Also make absolutely sure you have both a great academic and social senior year in high school. Good luck.</p>

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<p>Miami- 300K in debt for a dermatologist, plastic surgeon, cardiac/thoracic surgeon is a realistic and not too crippling amount of debt. 300K in debt for a pediatrician is a heavy crimp on one’s lifestyle.</p>

<p>Just as not every premed student is the same (some major in music, philosophy, Classics- so they aren’t picking the cheapest school from which to apply to Med school, they are picking the best educational environment for them to flourish in their intellectual pursuits independent of Med school), not every physician is the same.</p>

<p>And I know many doctors in primary care who have opted to serve on Indian reservations and inner city hospitals to qualify for Federal programs to cover med school.</p>

<p>Lots of ways to become a doctor, and many ways to cover the tuition besides the free undergrad/parents pay med school model which is working so well for your D.</p>

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<p>Consider UPitt honors as well and UMinny. They very well may throw a lot of money your way.
You’ll find intellectual peers at honors colleges, BTW. Probably more kids who have done “wow!” stuff at HYPSM, but if you’re going to med school, does that matter?</p>

<p>Oh, and it’s hilarious when teenagers think they know who’s a lock for Yale when adults who have worked with the statistics know better. SCEA at Yale would boost your chances, though, so unless there is another highly competitive school that you love, why not?</p>

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<p>You seem like a great kid. Divorce is tough on finances. Even if you have money in the bank. Getting a couple acceptances with low COA for you is a good plan. Best . </p>