"I’m going to guess that the GFG’s daughter would find pretty much any college easy after her high school! " - I never heard this opinion from anybody around my D. and I am talking about mostly straight A HS kids who attended in-state publics on huge Merit schoarships. D. graduated from the #2 private HS in our state where many teachers had experience teaching at colleges. She discovered later that her regular HS Chemistry class was taught at the higher level than APs at other HSs and that was why she was hand picked by prof for the Supplemental Instructor position. The point is not about her success, but rather that she achieved it thru the very hard work and continuous adjustments upwards, which are inevitable at absolutely any college. Everybody was talking about how they had to step up at college, I never heard otherwise, I never heard of the easy college.
Actually, the vast majority of students who attended public magnets like BxScience, Stuyvesant, TJSST, HCHS I’ve known or met felt their college experiences were easier than high school…including HS classmates who majored in STEM/pre-med at the HYPS or most peer elite colleges. My personal experience matches this group…and my probable class ranking by GPA places me near the bottom of my HS graduating class.
The exceptions were classmates who attended colleges known for heavy workloads such as Reed, Cornell, MIT, Caltech, Swat, UChicago, etc where they recounted the workload being about the same or slightly higher.
s"tudents who attended public magnets like BxScience, Stuyvesant" - Well, I still have to hear my granddaughter’s opinion. She will graduate from Stuyvesant next year. However, in contrast with “and my probable class ranking by GPA places me near the bottom of my HS graduating class.”, my D. has graduated #1 in her HS class and as I mentioned her HS was #2 among privates in our state. She was shocked by the gap between HS and her in-state public college and mentioned that those valedictorians who failed to adjust were simply derailed from their initial academic track. They were not at MIT, U Chicago or Harvard, they were at in-state public.
I guess, just a difference in experience. You, cobrat, is the only person that I ever heard saying that college was easy. I did not know anybody else. But then, how you explain the 85% attrition rate among initial pre-meds? Did they choose a different academic path because the pre-med was way too easy? I guess, it is one explanation that, again, I never heard.
Not everyone is pre med. In fact, the OP’s D is interested in archaeology/museum studies and related fields.
So the attrition rate for premeds is hardly relevant to her.
But carry on.
While most US high school graduates including the vals, sals, and top of their HS class will find college to be harder than HS, I am just pointing out there are plenty of exceptions.
One cannot rule out the possibility that OP’s D may find the over-the-top workload/rigor demands of her “WWP-like” NJ school district may have similarly “overprepared” her for the rigors of most undergrad colleges.
Especially if that district is an environment which sends relatively larger than average proportion of their graduating class to respectable/elite colleges.
I thought college was easy. Much easier than high school. GFG’s high school is notorious for the amount of busy work that is assigned. College classes meet less often, don’t generally have silly projects and you usually take fewer courses at the time and because you choose your courses you usually can choose mostly courses you will enjoy.
I don’t think my son found Carnegie Mellon easy after the first year. And my younger son didn’t find Arabic easy nor the course he took freshman year that was such a time sink they joked it was a cult. But my younger son after that first year with the exception of Arabic found college pretty easy.
I don’t know if I’d say college was “easier” than high school, because college was more reading and more papers.
But it was definitely more enjoyable, because I like reading and writing, and I enjoyed what I studied.
I also enjoyed getting more sleep on a regular basis, and having a more flexible schedule.
Given some of the “extra work just to make extra work” high schools described on these forums, it is entirely possible for a student from such a high school to find college to be less work than high school.
However, college is likely to be intellectually more difficult, at least when one gets to more advanced course work. But presumably the student will be mostly studying things that s/he likes.
If a college is Ivy-league difficult but you actually graduate with an Ivy-league degree, then fine. But to paraphrase one of the student reviews about F&M, it’s quite another thing to be miserable working your butt off for deflated grades from some small college in PA no one ever heard of. F&M was rated 4th most rigorous by the Daily Beast: http://my.xfinity.com/slideshow/news-dbleastmostrigorouscites/19/ Not saying that’s an accurate list, but it gives pause.
Not from your area and never heard of any of the schools being discussed here. Your pressure-cooker-HS D may not want the most elite colleges in the nation but be sure she isn’t scared off by those with rigor. The definition and expectations of rigorous may be very different from her experiences.
That ranking looks like a pile of hooey to me. No way is F&M more rigorous than UChicago or Harvey Mudd. Just saying.
F&M seems to have a strong reputation for the physical sciences, and supposedly med. schools know about the college’s alleged rigor (as per the spiel the tour guides and admissions staff give). That’s great, but do graduate schools in archaeology know or care? I doubt it. D needs to learn in order to be prepared for her eventual career, but is not the type who needs intellectual challenge and high workload for their own sake.
I am trying to find an affordable school close to home (I would prefer under a 2 hour drive, but definitely under 3 hrs., since she may need some regular help and oversight) that offers classics and archaeology classes and that she can get into. My choices are few, it seems. F&M would be closer to home than Dickinson, more affordable based on the NPC, and a good athletic fit. It’s those niggling doubts about difficulty…
Do not limit the location to merely 2-3 hours. In the upper Midwest the top schools may be a five hour drive- that means parents can make the round trip in one day. Have that as your goal instead of limiting potentially good fit schools. You do not expect your college student to return home very often- especially if the campus suits her so weekends are good. Also there is likely ride sharing to your hometown with others.
My D has a special education background, so I do have to limit the distance.
Part of the ranking is student perceptions of rigor, so the rankings don’t mean that objectively one school is harder than another. Above a certain academic level, it’s how rigorous the school is for the students it has relative to their preparation and expectations.
I didn’t study archaeology (I did take one class in field techniques, but was a Classics major not an archaeology major so didn’t take any advanced courses in fieldwork) but I think you are worried about a non-issue.
First of all- the kind of kids attracted to your D’s areas of interest are not the cut-throat “got to get a 4.0 so I can become a plastic surgeon and make a million dollars a year” kind of kids. They just aren’t. Second, the course work lends itself to a lot of collaboration and cooperation, not the intense 'I won’t show you my lab notes because I don’t want to be competing with you 8 years from now for a residency". And third- the content areas will vary dramatically depending on what your D eventually decides to study. Unlike engineering where there is a mandated body of material which needs to be mastered in order to get licensed (if it’s for a job which requires a license) there is no “licensing” for a student who is learning Akkadian or Sumerian or any other dead language.
Your D’s course work will be sequential but self paced. A semester with a tough and time consuming field techniques lab can get balanced out with a lecture based course on Classical Tragedy and Comedy (one of the best classes I ever took btw). A semester with the required “soil and carbon dating” class gets balanced with an architecture seminar.
F&M is not more rigorous than Harvey Mudd- I find that a crazy assertion. Maybe a delusional premed thinks that. But all premeds think their college has grade deflation, and that someone else is having an easier time acing organic chemistry.
If F&M works for all the other reasons, I wouldn’t let concerns about rigor move the needle. There is no marathon for Classics/museum studies/archaeology where the fastest runner gets the prize and everyone else goes home sweaty and exhausted.
@TheGFG I can’t tell on this thread if your D has done a visit to Bryn Mawr College for either an unofficial or official (with overnight)? I hope your daughter has an opportunity to participate in an overnight, which I highly recommend. My STEM-major inclined scholar athlete and I attended open house two weeks ago and my daughter spent a lot of time with the team (lunch, personal dorm room tour, attended biology class, watched a competition and team practice) and my daughter loved everything about the Bryn Mawr College experience. We had been looking at research universities in upper NY but my daughter immediately felt at home at Bryn Mawr (we are from the Midwest). I too followed the Haverford “beware” thread, which is absolutely crazy. BMC is a great school for classical studies/anthropology/archaeology, especially with their arrangement with the University of Pennsylvania (have you visited the Penn Museum, the U Penn archaeology and anthropology museum - it is fantastic). Yes, we too were hit with the spiel about BM’s mandatory writing intensive course, but we have come across this requirement before at other universities. Personally I don’t think you need to be too concerned, but please ask admissions about what additional resources would be available for your daughter so you can have clarity on this issue.
It sounds like you are knee-deep in stats and on-line reviews trying to narrow down your list, so I would urge your family to have a focused visit to campus soon to gain some insight.
Dickinson is going to be about another hour farther than F&M, is that right (just based on the fact that they are one hour apart, I don’t really know where you are driving from)? You may have to make the trip sometimes, but even with a kid needing some assistance, you have to hope it isn’t going to be too often. I have a kid with a learning disability who is across the country – I guess it depends on your situation, but swooping in to help a college kid too often isn’t always the most helpful thing to them. And there is always email, Skype, texting, etc to communicate if you aren’t right there in person. I think your D is an athlete if I’m right – if you want to go see her compete often in whatever she does, then I could see how that hour could make a big difference, and push you toward F&M.
Hi, OP here. Thanks for the new posts!
Doublebach, yes, D has visited Bryn Mawr twice–once for a standard tour and information session, and once for an open house where she coincidentally met with the potential coach. I expect that in the fall she may do an athletic visit if our interest in BM persists. D adored the campus, the traditions, and all of the girls we met the first time. The second visit was nice, but not as impressive. The open house was not run as well as at other schools, the tour guide was flippant and despite D’s obvious presence there in a varsity jacket, made a negative comment about the relevant athletic facility. Also, some of the appeal of the old buildings was lost on us the second time around, as we noticed a good bit of shabbiness. Then, of course, there was the fact that the words “writing-intensive” came of their mouths constantly. To be fair, though, other schools said the same. As far as academic quality and ranking in her field, BM wins hands down.
The main problems with BM are 1) the quality of the team (it’s like a bad high school team and far worse than her own). Prior to the open house, the coach did not respond to either of D’s two e-mails to him–the only coach D contacted who didn’t respond within a few hours–which adds to the impression BM cares not one whit about athletics. Also, the track is on Haverford’s campus and therefore BM will likely not get the optimum practice hours on it. 2) cost. When H ran the numbers a year ago, the COA was a tad higher but basically on par with the other top contenders. Now it comes out a good bit more expensive and requiring more loans than D’s other options. Academically, D would not be a candidate for merit unless it were based on athletic talent and/or her other quality EC’s related to her major–but not for GPA or ACT scores. Also, I am not sure if any merit would be subtracted from our EFC or not, so it could be irrelevant anyway. 3) single gender. D is not exactly opposed to the idea, but was not specifically looking for it either. She worries about the presumption of social weirdness by employers (since many people have told us the school has that reputation), and too much in-your-face sexual politics.
intparent–Dickinson doesn’t sound much farther away and I kept telling myself it’s only an extra hour farther than F&M. But in reality, it would mean 4 extra hours of travel if D wanted or needed to come for the weekend. And as an athlete, it’s unlikely she’d be able to leave for home until after Sat. morning practice, so that would entail 6 hours of driving a day for us. Hardly worth it. In addition, unlike F&M and BM, it’s not close to public transportation should we need to use that instead. She’d have to travel an extra 30-45 min. into Harrisburg first. Dickinson has the best athletic facilities by far, and well-maintained buildings. We like the organization of the curriculum as it relates to D’s interests. Their administration and college communications are top-notch. They do a great job of presenting who they are.
The main negatives of D are: 1) it is also more expensive than F&M, though not by as much as BM. 2) The coach is fine, but D’s least favorite of all the ones she’s met. She’s a sensitive kid and thinks he could be nasty when crossed, and that he will only give you the time of day if you’re doing well. 3) rate my professor comments are consistently mediocre to poor for the relevant faculty. Yes, I know the problems with that site, but in contrast the reviews of the relevant profs at F&M and BM are great. The head of one of her departments of interest at D has or has had 2 D’s in the major and a wife or other relative working in the department as well. Ick.
Haverford solves a lot of the problems of BM, while still giving access to the same academics. H is by far the least expensive (would save us about $25,000 over 4 years compared to the next cheapest, F&M). Also, H has a really great team. D didn’t like the campus or vibe as much as at BM, but she would major over at BM anyway if she attended H. Other schools have honor codes and that’s great, but H seemed excessively attached to theirs. D’s disability entails social awkwardness, so I’d fear she might be “separated” from the school or something if she inadvertently misspoke and thus ran afoul of the honor council. H and BM are only an hour away, which is ideal. The big problem with Haverford, though, would be actually getting in. And if after a pre-read the coach tells her to go ED, my fear as per warnings is that she’d be ultimately rejected and then would have lost her advantage elsewhere.
GFG- If I were you (and I realize talk is cheap since this is your kid) I would dismiss any concerns about academic rigor/workload AND the communicativeness or organizational skills of any particular college. I would focus on the area of interest, affordability, and ease of getting home/getting there. Period.
A kid who listens to her advisor (and it sounds like your D is open to having an authority figure intervene in her life) is going to end up with a balanced workload. A kid who listens to professors is not going to take a semester which has four courses, all of whom backload with a research paper due on the exact same day at the end of the semester with no other assessment during the term. A kid who is conscious of balancing her team obligations with her academics is not going to “wing it” by blowing off all the early quizzes figuring she can catch up after the midterm. Colleges don’t set their students up for failure or a mindnumbing amount of pressure. But kids don’t listen, don’t seek out help, don’t take advice from their advisors or deans. But if yours listens- I’d set aside this worry.
The organizational/how good are we at marketing issue? No bearing on the educational experience. One of my kids went to a U which was haphazard? all over the place? disorganized? on anything administrative. I’d been told that the non-instructional staff (i.e. anyone not a professor or with tenure) would be hell to work with.
Guess what? We had a timing issue on their billing system (cash flow problem on our end). I made one phone call- just one- got a helpful person on the other end (a clerical person in the bursars office, not an official) who told me to send an email summarizing what would work for us and guess what- 7 semesters thereafter where our deadline was extended. One phone call.
I had an issue with housing sophomore year. Move in was horrendous, the building had been undergoing renovations which clearly weren’t completed by the time the kids showed up. I called the head of housing (on a Sunday) and left a voice mail, figuring I’d hear back in six months, and by noon the next day the issue had been resolved. Did he call me back? No. was the problem fixed? Yes.
I could go on. But bottom line, the “parent interface” and marketing was sub-par, but anything involving the students was superb in the extreme.
So don’t knock out a college which can’t pull off a Disneyland type visitor experience if the fundamentals are there. Shabby buildings don’t diminish a college experience.
My two cents.