<p>"how do you know which category your future-college-student will fall into?"</p>
<p>Jolynne - It's an art, not a science IMHO. I wouldn't go "rolling the dice." I'd want to be pretty sure the $50K/year (you really don't believe that $35-40K COA propaganda do you?) was going to be well-utilized before signing that first check. That said, I think you'll be able to see the answer in your S's face when you visit the school and when he talks about it.</p>
<p>NewHope33- 1970s avocado??? Oh please, I dream avocado after a night's cooking on my lemon yellow '63 Burner with a Brain rangetop. (Yes it still performs beautifully, I can simmer a sauce perfectly three rooms away.) </p>
<p>However that wallpaper has me salivating. Some people have all the luck..</p>
<p>Just goes to show that one person's nightmare is another person's dreamland. (You'll have to excuse me now. The neighbors are marching on the house again. They're chanting "Send out the kitchen and nobody gets hurt!" Jealous I guess.)</p>
<p>Jolynne,</p>
<p>Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. Does your kid push the envelope academically? Does the kid go beyond the assignment and excel? Or does he coast with the rest?</p>
<p>If a kid coasts in HS, chances are he'll do the same in college (change happens, but how often?). Do not count on peers to pull a kid along. It does happen, but not much. Even at academically demanding colleges like U of Chicago, there are kids that rather coast along, taking their C grades as OK.</p>
<p>Jolynne, I can't answer your question since I don't know your kid. But I know kids from my own kids HS who have blown through their college funds at a private U with no degree.... as well as family members who never really got their act together.</p>
<p>You have to have some degree of transparency with your child. We told ours that we didn't need to see their grades; we didn't need to hear that they were getting all A's; we weren't concerned that they were prepping for a lucrative career. But they needed to go to class (the single most common reason why kids flunk courses at college- just not showing up.) They needed to find a work/life balance just as the parents do- if you stay out late one night seeing friends, you know you aren't going to be as productive at work the next day. We wanted them to have friends and meet all sorts of people, but they needed to figure out how much socializing they could handle while staying on top of their work. We expected them to work during the summers which meant getting aggressive early in the year, not waiting until May to find out that the decent jobs were gone. And most of all- we expected them to show maturity in handling the inevitable problems that would show up. Everyone bombs a test (or two or more). Everyone discovers that college is harder than HS. Everyone discovers that linguistics is not what they thought it was, or that majoring in economics means four years of math, not four years of sitting around discussing "scarcity" and Keynes.</p>
<p>The solution is not to party harder. You go see the professor; you make an appointment with your advisor or a dean. You drop the class early enough so that it shows up as "withdrawn" not "flunked out" and you figure out how to make up the credits next semester. You go to the tutoring center. These private U's have resources that would make your head spin-- but the kid has to tap into them. Nobody's TA is going to drag them out of bed for a 9 am review session before exams.</p>
<p>My kids made mistakes, for sure, and I'll bet there were days and weeks when they envied their HS friends who had opted for less challenging majors or less expensive schools with parents with more relaxed expectations. Especially when those friends were doing spring break in Jamaica and mine were home doing job interviews for the summer. but- it was their choice. Nobody told them it was private U or bust; but we made it clear that we would not be subsidizing four years of hanging out in a fun city with a lot of cool people- if we were paying tuition, we expected them to make the most of it.</p>
<p>And the lectures in the rare book room? They end up finding those things on their own.</p>
<p>A viking stove is actually one of the few appliances in the world that I go nuts over. Make mine burgundy. Yum! When I win the lottery!</p>
<p>Jolynne, you can't know for sure, but there are some clues. Did you kid love CTY? Did your kid voluntarily commute 2 hours to Columbia U. on public transportation to go to a class on Quantum Physics? Ad perhaps most important did your child get better grades in his hard courses than his easy ones? Those are kids who might be better off somewhere more challenging. </p>
<p>My kid was not a social kid in high school - we'd actually be happy if he partied more!</p>
<p>My sister-in-law thinks she would have been better off at some place like Duke rather than at Harvard. She felt very intimidated by Harvard and did not get as involved in extra curricular activities as you would expect from someone who is extremely involved now. I think she also had trouble adjusting to being in Yankee territory, though she's ended up in NH permanently.</p>
<p>We don't have vinyl wall paper, but do have chipped formica counters in the shade known as caca d'oie.</p>
<p>It's strange that this has come up two days in a row, as I rarely bring it up but both my FIL and BIL have their MBAs from Harvard. Neither would ever offer an unsolicited opinion but when asked they strongly recommend against families going in debt to pay for private schools, especially for undergrad. If a family can afford it, great, but if it's going to involve debt, it's very important to be ruthless with the calculator. </p>
<p>In my opinion, now more than ever, it's so important that we be realistic about debt and help our children do the same. That may not involve turning down Princeton, but it might. I simply do not accept that means that those who turn it down will have a sub-par experience or sub-par future. I just have too many friends and family members who have either come to resent the burden their student debt became or who are very thankful they made the tough decision to turn down the more expensive school. </p>
<p>I know this sounds very one sided, so I want to say again that I am in no way judging anyone's family or decisions. But there is this relentless sales job on parents and students to convince us that it's almost always the right choice to take on the debt or allow the student to do it. Life, G-d willing, is long. That's easy to forget when these four years loom so large in our culture.</p>
<p>Pug- MBA students are not part of campus life the way undergrads are. My MBA gave me a wonderful professional network, got me several jobs for which I was under- qualified, and for sure enhanced my earning power from day one. It did not challenge me intellectually; it did not teach me how to write or think criticially; it did not ask me to challenge my values and emerge as a stronger, better human being. At 24 I was one of the younger students in my class- I'm sure the 28-30 year olds, most of whom were married and commuted from the suburbs, were even less part of the intellectual community on campus than I was.</p>
<p>I don't think you are making a realistic comparison.</p>
<p>I don't think anyone should be encouraged or cajoled or guilted into paying for education that either doesn't fit with their families values or isn't affordable. But MBA students don't get summer jobs preparing engravings from the college archives for an exhibit at the National Gallery; don't play in the college chamber orchestra; don't edit the literary magazine or work in a lab of a Nobel prize winning chemist. So all of these fantastic opportunities at Harvard, Chicago, MIT, Hopkins, etc- B-school students don't benefit from them whatsoever.</p>
<p>As to the value of going into debt for an MBA- caveat emptor. But how B-school students would be in a position to judge the value of a Harvard undergrad education is a little mystifying to me- unless they were both Harvard college grads, in which case-- Bring it on.</p>
<p>I don't believe there is a "relentless sales job" on parents to take on debt. I think we live in a consumerist society where a certain portion of the population will always belive that more expensive equals better; where a certain portion will always want what they can't really afford, and where some gullible people make financial decisions without understanding the consequences. A But that applies equally to people living in homes they can't afford (and are now learning what those consequences are), driving cars that are being repossessed, and even certain VP candidates who are packing up their suits from Neiman Marcus before the RNC lawyers descend.</p>
<p>I have a friend who turned down Yale some years ago for her state school, Wisconsin, for financial reasons. She stayed at Wisconsin for her BS and MD, then went to Harvard for her residency and became chief resident. When some other residents who went to Ivy Med Schools complained, they were just told, sorry, she's been the best resident (in her specialty) we have. We don't care where anyone went to school.</p>
<p>She is thrilled she didn't spend all that extra money on her undergrad and medical school degrees. </p>
<p>When you talk about state schols, it really depends which one. I can certainly see smeone turning down an Ivy for UVA, Michigan, Berkeley, etc. if they live in state. Even more so if the student plans on going to graduate school.</p>
<p>Except on this forum, I think the opposite holds true- most people can't understand why in the world anyone would venture out of their state's public university system. Many people I run into think our son must be having a good time watching his college's football team with that great coach, Joe Paterno and assume he got a good scholarship or he wouldn't be going there. They can't begin to grasp that he is at a private school in the Ivy League and that we are paying a fortune to send him there.</p>
<p>catherine- yes, that is certainly true for students planning on medical school. There are many reasons to choose a top state university over an expensive private. I don't fault anyone that choice. However, it would NOT have been the right thing for my kid and a number of others. There are some things he needs from his educational environment which led to our supporting a certain path for both high school and college. It's not just a matter of being bright or talented- there are plenty of bright, talented kids at state universities and getting great merit money at other public and private colleges. It's a matter of the total environment that a school offers. Some kids can not imagine going to a school that doesn't offer a really fun D1 athletic scene. I get that. It adds something to the experience that they want to have. I don't fault anyone for wanting that- I love it as an adult! Other kids need to have classmates who, for the most part (and, yes, as Blossom points out there are exceptions)are engaged in their education and seek intellectual stimulation. As much as I love my alma mater (Big Ten school), I can't say that I found a whole lot of that and I know it would not have been the right place for my younger kid.</p>
<p>Whenever I see a forum like this, I usually find that the metric is wrong. Yes, most folks will find the educational quality at a prestige private higher than that at a decent state university. One should certainly hope so, given that the institution is spending so much more per student. That's really not worth arguing, though there are places within certain state universities - honors college, special select programs - where spending per student may begin to approach that of the prestige private - and with it, educational quality, including the quality of the students themselves.</p>
<p>Is the difference worth the difference in cost? Hard to know. It will be different for each family. If you have $10 million per year in discretionary income, what's $30k a year? If you have $1k per year in discretionary income, you aren't going without virtually full scholarship aid to either place. Both the availability and the value of each dollar is going to differ for every family.</p>
<p>But even if you could figure that, you would still be missing the major metric.</p>
<p>Is the $200k private better in educational quality than the $80k public, IF YOU HAD THAT ADDITIONAL $120K TO SPEND ON OTHER EDUCATIONAL PURSUITS? In my limited experience, I'd say almost never, but that's not the point - the point is to raise the question. Is four years at Princeton better educationally than four years at the state honors college, 5 unpaid but wonderful internships, two trips around the world, two extra years after college living in Italy and learning to paint, five years unpaid working on public health initiatives in Africa, or two years of medical school paid? (and the stimulation offered by all of the above, especially given that the student bodies within the good honors colleges will be essentially the same?)</p>
<p>Of course, this metric only makes sense if you have $200k to spend on education, AND NO MORE. (If you could buy all those other things in any case, then the comparison goes out the window.)</p>
<p>Mini, of the students and professors in your older D's grad program, how many of them took the state college route and invested the extra dough in all those wonderful other options???</p>
<p>Just curious. I have observed that even ambitious and studious kids will tailor their ambitions to the bar that's set around them. If you're at Princeton then you think nothing of applying for all those great fellowships and study abroad opportunities. You know the funding is there. If you're at many State U's you'd have to be pretty aggressive to even find your way to the Fellowship office. Who knew that the War Tribunal at the Hague hires interns? Who knew that the Knessest in Israel has a program for undergrads? </p>
<p>The point is not that you'd have 120K sitting around to fund fantastic opportunities overseas- the point is that if your peers and professors aren't urging you to work in Paraguay next semester, it might take you a long time to figure out the mechanics of your South American experience.</p>
<p>Actually, of those who could afford it, quite a few. (In fact, ALL of the entering students in her program with one single exception - she - had earned M.A.s prior to entering the program, quite a few in performance-based studies, for which there are very few scholarships. In other words, many did precisely what I suggested.) (And the reason they accepted her as opposed to dozens of other applicants in her field - they only took one - is that she raised some extra money and spent extra time doing her own research in Italy, in which she became fluent.)</p>
<p>Furthermore, although this isn't regarding the metric, I am absolutely convinced that the very top students in the good state honors college get more opportunities, internships, mentoring opportunities, research opportunities that the average run-of-the-mill student at the prestige privates. These are - as you say, the ambitious, studious kids - and once they are identified in the specialized programs at the state u's, they often go very far. </p>
<p>Point being - I am not saying the schools straight up are equal. (That's why I devoted my whole first paragraph to emphasizing how they are not.) But for the individual who chooses well, and doesn't think that all spending on education goes through the tuition box, the differences may not be that great, and in many instances, will swing the other way.</p>
<p>Turning down Princeton would be easy</p>
<p>Son wants to live on West coast and major in engineering. Engineering hiring is local with partnerships established within the region so why go to Princeton? I can't think of many reasons to go Ivy in this case.</p>
<p>blossom, They both also attended very prestigious private colleges for their undergrad years. But people tend to dismiss financial warnings about Ivies unless they come from other Ivy grads. And while there are programs available only to those who attend Ivys and the like, there are very prestigious opprotunities available to students who are willing to push themselves. </p>
<p>I disagree that there is not a relentless sales campaign. Private schools have to make money. I'm not faulting them but I do think there should be a lot more skepticism and a lot less trusting just because they are in the field of education. </p>
<p>I've had friends who have not gone to college, whose financial savvy is not high basically get talked into massive amounts of debt by private colleges, including one Ivy, when it came to their child's education. Yes, these friends are responsible for their own choices. At the same time, I think it's important to counteract the messege that these schools, even the Ivy League, are tickets to success. They are not. They are tools that can be used. One still leaves with only an undergrad degree. What that degree is in and the earning potential of it are not fundamentally changed because of the name of the school on it.</p>
<p>I have two boys, one at Princeton, one at Yale. We live in VA. We had prepaid tuition plans (18k covered 4 years of tuition and fees). I'm a W&M alum, for whom that environment was plenty challenging. Both boys got Monroe and Echols status (mostly perks) at UVa and WM (GC told them these were good safety schools); oldest received Classics Dept scholarship. Both turned these down. They really do need those top peers and top professors they are exposed to, and somewhere in the deep recesses of ourselves we recognized this. We decided it was worth the sacrifices.</p>
<p>Don't get me wrong, I know the state u's have these peers too, just not in the same numbers. Having gone to a VA Governor's school, my boys know dozens of classmates who did make the other choice. These classmates' biggest complaint is that it's easier than their high school was. They are not challenged as much as they thought they would be. </p>
<p>My boys are so far beyond H and me in intellect and knowledge it makes us feel almost uneducated. Do I regret the financial sacrifice and later retirement? Not one bit. They both appreciate what we are doing and are doing all they can to get fabulous grades and be involved in their college community. They are making the sacrifice easier to bear.</p>
<p>We also have two girls. They are both smart, gifted, etc, but not at the same intellectual level as their brothers. They would probably struggle to get A's at HYP and would probably be pretty challenged and stimulated at UVa or WM. Each child is an individual and each family needs to decide what is the best decision for both the child and the family. I'm an interior designer... do I envy my clients with granite countertops? Sometimes... But they will sell their home eventually, as will I, and my kids will always have what I hope was the best college experience for their particular needs. And maybe someday one of them will show their appreciation by replacing my counters or buying me a Wolf (sorry, I'm not a Viking fan) range!</p>
<p>"Mini, of the students and professors in your older D's grad program, how many of them took the state college route and invested the extra dough in all those wonderful other options???"</p>
<p>By the way, I should add that, from what I remember she told me, not one of her program classmates in her prestigious graduate program at Princeton attended a "prestige private". (Except Smith. ;))</p>
<p>I Always tell my kids " you did not get into a school if little or no FA is offered". To me if a school really wanted you it will make it possible for you to attend . An acceptance letter with hardly any aid to me is lip service.
However I have a D at one of the HYPS schools I think that's the right place for her. She said advising is very good. She is a freshman and is a writer for one of the school's publications. She came from a very vigorous private school and we never considered the state U.
On the other hand our oldest son was a lackluster HS student. We did not think it was wise for him to take huge loans to finance his education.
He went to the State U and was so fed up. His Econ class was a nightmare. The first four weeks, for every week, he had a new professor in that class. No matter how early he registered for classes, he could never get the schedule he wanted .The good thing was this pushed him to work harder.
He is now at a private school where he is very happy.</p>
<p>Well, pug, for some of us college is NOT about the earning potential. If that's how you measure the value of an education, I suggest attending a community college for two years while living at home--or even better, "dual enrollment" while in high school--followed by 2 years at the cheapest public regional college in-state or even better one of those colleges that gives lots of credit for "life experience." </p>
<p>For some of us though, college is not about "what that degree is in" or the "earning potential of it." It simply isn't about vocational training. </p>
<p>It's about the experience you have while in college. </p>
<p>Would you acknowledge that there's a difference in the experience that someone who attends the U of Virginia or UMichigan for four years has versus the experience that someone who attends a community college for two years while living at home and then transfers to UVa or UMichigan for the last two years? Is there a difference in the educational experience of someone who spends 4 years at UWisconsin-Madison and someone who does "dual enrollment "at U-Wisconsin White Water or Stephen's Point (spelling?) during high school and then spends 1.5 years at Madison, attending summer school, to get a degree? After all, in those cases, you do end up with the EXACT same degree and you've paid a lot less for it. </p>
<p>Hey, why not just go to school on-line? It's a lot cheaper.</p>
<p>It's a personal decision for each family. But for some of us, it's not just about earning potential. We don't see college as vocational training. It doesn't really matter to us if our kids end up with a job they could have gotten if they'd graduated from state U. We're interested in other things. </p>
<p>Different strokes for different folks.</p>