How could I turn down Princeton?

<p>mini, you think it does not make a difference for some students?</p>

<p>Most of us would say U. Mich is one of the "public ivies". So see what it says about itself: <a href="http://www.michigandaily.com/content/real-reason-you-didnt-win-rhodes-scholarship%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.michigandaily.com/content/real-reason-you-didnt-win-rhodes-scholarship&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Maybe U. Mich fell for the marketing hype of the elites?</p>

<p>Not every kid is Rhodes material of course, but this is just one example of how things are, indeed, different at public U, despite all the efforts of their vaunted honors colleges and such.</p>

<p>None of us are saying all kids, even most kids should take private over public. Not at all. But for some kids, there is a difference. And it matters.</p>

<p>Your mileage may vary.</p>

<p>Son wouldn't even apply to Princeton, or many elite schools, despite parental prodding and no financial concerns, sigh. Where you live matters. We have one of the top rated flagship U's here, it makes a difference what caliber the average state U student is. Also, the public schools in Wisconsin do a much better job than the private ones, unlike in some states. It is telling when a parent didn't trust the public schools, here gifted and talented education is best done by the public schools for their children's K-12 education. Attitudes towards public and private schools depend on the quality you are used to locally. I could try to be more specific, but don't want to get into state bashing, anyone can look up statistics and know how their state compares to others.</p>

<p>I completely agree with jonri in post #40. The value of the very selective private university for us is not earning potential. I have never looked at it that way and nor have my kids. I think you can be a success no matter what college you attended. The person becomes a success, and that is not a product of the name of their college. But many of us value the experience while going to school and that the experience is the one that really fits a particular student. If I cared so much about earning potential, I can tell you that my kids have had very expensive college and grad school educations and neither is entering a high paying profession.</p>

<p>"mini, you think it does not make a difference for some students?'</p>

<p>Actually, I think I wrote it DOES. (though not for Rhodes - that's another argument entirely. By the way, if you want a Fulbright - don't go to HYPS - go to Smith. ;))</p>

<p>By the way, the tenured faculty in her prestigious program at Princeton?
Undergrad degrees:
Reading University (third rate English public)
Brooklyn College (2nd rate U.S. public)
University of Toronto (large Canadian public)
University of Amsterdam (2nd tier Dutch public)
Brandeis University
Baldwin-Wallace College (little LAC)
Queens College (2nd rate U.S. public)
UC-Davis (2nd tier public)
Univ. of MO-Kansas City (4th tier public)
Carleton
and, oh yes, there is one Harvard.</p>

<p>These are the folks the undergrads at Princeton are studying with. (and lucky they are!)</p>

<p>My D. did not care to apply to Ivy's or any elite schools at all. We did not see any advantage. She is having an awesome time at her state school, she is very much challenged academically, much more than she expected, we are paying no tuition, only part of R&B because of Merit scholarships, and she even has a spot at Med. school already because she is in combined bs/md program (she is UG sophmore). I believe that experience depends much more on a kid than particular school. D is having much more opportunities than she can even handle, just turned down position of Sorority President, would not be able to fit with her job as Supplemental Instructor for Chem. prof., volunteering, Sorority events, Minor in Music, ...etc, the kid needs to sleep too. I do not see anything wrong with this picture. In my opinion, Elite schools are much more overrated.</p>

<p>Interesting perspectives from so many different angles! I can definitely see how a student who plans on med school would pick an undergrad w/more merit $$ (son knows a a student in his grad class who did this--turned down 2 ivy league schools for a school w/a grad med program--thinking ahead to her future).</p>

<p>The ideas here were thought provoking. I was thinking about the concept that if a student only studies a little & isn't into ECs in HS -- it's likely they won't be involved in college (thus, maybe not a good investment in $$ school). My son is a non-school-EC kid (who does a number of ECs on his own, though). </p>

<p>I thought---you know, I don't know if it really matters if son doesn't join a myriad of college activities. So what if he misses the lecture in the library on [insert esoteric subject] in leiu of a marathon game of Wii or playing in an amateur rock band. What matters is that he is substantively challenged in his major and has real-world opportunities afforded to him (co-ops, internships, research). In fact, son has said those 2 things are what matters most in college (to his credit!). Re: the schoolwork---that's more of an open question, but I'm hopeful that a kid who's getting an A in AP calculus w/no discernable studying (somehow) would rise to the challenges. I could be wrong, though. You never know. </p>

<p>This discussion has helped me clarify a bit (or, talk myself into!) the possibility of a more expensive, private college. As always--it's so informative, here.</p>

<p>Whoa, I can't believe that so many MISREAD my post number two. I didn't say that it would be crazy to attend an ivy or private school over a decent state university. I said, "it would be crazy to incur large debt attending an ivy school over attending a decent state university." I stand by the statement!</p>

<p>Yes, I do know that many of you have had kids who have had wonderful experiences at ( insert any private school name that you wish). However, how do you know that they wouldn't have had the same experiences and opportunities elsewhere? Also, if you had an extra $120,000, wouldn't that money been put to good use for a better retirement, graduate education, house for your kids etc.?</p>

<p>Check out post number 44. You will find a plethora of top notch faculty who did NOT attend an expensive private school. This is also true at many other top universities.</p>

<p>Check out the student review forum for Cornell, Wash U St Louis and for other expensive private schools. ( sorry, I can't give you the URL for these forums because it violates TOS. Just do a search) There are many students who regret the price and education that they got at these institutions. Don't take my opinion as gospel. Check out other forums!</p>

<p>As a tax lawyer, I got to meet many successful people. Lets face it: the homeless don't come to me. By far, the majority of successful people that I have met did NOT attend an ivy school or even a very famous private school.</p>

<p>Why not find out how many kids really take advantage of the college opportunities at these expensive schools? You would be surprised how many of the kids drink, play WII, etc. instead of taking advantage of the opportunities. In fact, I think if the true numbers were revealed, it would be alarming to many parents of these kids!</p>

<p>Do a search for "large debt and colleges"on the web. There are hundreds of students, not to mention many articles about students, who sincerely regret incurring the large debt for their undergraduate education. In fact, there was a big expose about this on television about a year ago. Some of you may have seen the students who cried during the interview when they realized how much their debt was!
I would think that this has become a particularly acute problem with the stock market meltdown.</p>

<p>Bottom line: If you are making wads of cash so that you can easily spend 50K++ on that wonderful, upper tier private school, go for it. However, if you are not rich and your kids aren't getting a large scholarship and must incur substantial debt, attending a decent state university where you can get an almost full ride makes a LOT of sense over attending a top tier private school IF that state university has quality programs related to your student's major.</p>

<p>I should note that I do recognize situations where attending the private school over the decent state university with aid would take precedence such as for learning disabled kids.</p>

<p>taxguy:</p>

<p>If you really do taxes for a living, you should have enough financial savvy to know the difference between expenditure and financing. Spending 200K on a college education is an expenditure. Borrowing to do so is a financial management decision. </p>

<p>Whether one decides to finance an expenditure from savings, reduced current consumption or reduced future consumption (i.e. debt) is a separate issue from the decision to make the expenditure, especially when that expenditure is actually an investment in human capital. </p>

<p>Maybe you are a cash only guy? You recommend that folks buy homes with cash? No mortgages? Buy cars with cash? Or lease?</p>

<p>No, some of us at least understood you perfectly well. We also realize that you yourself may not value education all that much, and have little respect for others that do: "it would be crazy...".</p>

<p>Regarding regrets, please give me a break. People regret expenditures all the time. Tell me something new, something relevant.</p>

<p>It is indeed ironic to see someone advocating for a state U in this time of public higher ed meltdown.</p>

<p>mini: Thanks for that wonderful 'think outside the box' analysis of an alternative way of looking at how to get the best value out of education dollars. I agree with much of what you say.</p>

<p>Newmassdad notes,"No, some of us at least understood you perfectly well. We also realize that you yourself may not value education all that much, and have little respect for others that do: "it would be crazy"</p>

<p>Response: Spare me your condescending tone! Are you telling me that because I recommend a good state university over incurring large debt at an expensive private school, I must not "value education all that much?" Are you kidding?</p>

<p>I value education HIGHLY. I am both a writer and lecturer and former professor at various universities. My parents were both educators.</p>

<p>What I don't value is waste! Frankly, I believe, and statistics and studies tend to show this, that the education received at a good state university with decent programs in the student's major will provide the same opportunities as that of the expensive private school. I have seen this noted in many student forums,which I cited above, and in a number of studies, not to mention what I have witnessed over the years. However, if folks choose to ignore all of this, so be it.</p>

<p>As for melt down in state funding due to today's economy, yes, you have a point. However, this meltdown has also occurred to most people,which is why more folks will be sending their kids to state universities now more than ever! Check out the featured post that deals with California State Universities. They are expecting more application than ever before! In fact, many state universities are girding for a major increase in applications due to the economy.</p>

<p>However, to say that the economy won't affect private schools too is ludicrous and short sighted. Private schools will probably have to make significant cut backs if they get a lot of students opting out in order to attend state universities. In addition the decrease in their endowment will also cause many changes in private school funding of scholarships and in programs. Finally, private schools are very dependant on charitable giving. You don't think that the economy won't result in a decrease in alumni donations?</p>

<p>You note the difference between capital expenditure and consumption. Frankly, if the only option was that of an expensive private school, you would be right. I just think that there are equal, less expensive options. However, let's just agree to disagree. I am simply posing a different point of view from what is normally espoused here so that parents can at least see another point of view from the "cost be damned" attitude so prevalent here on CC.</p>

<p>
[quote]
What I don't value is waste! Frankly, I believe, and statistics and studies tend to show this, that the education received at a good state university with decent programs in the student's major will provide the same opportunities as that of the expensive private school. I have seen this noted in many student forums,which I cited above, and in a number of studies, not to mention what I have witnessed over the years. However, if folks choose to ignore all of this, so be it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>There has been research done in this area, but with curiously contradictory results. See Caroline Hoxby's work for an intro into this difficult topic. We don't ignore this important research. We do understand its limitations, though. </p>

<p>Keep in mind, too, that this discussion has been about elite colleges versus state U. At least it was for most of us. I would not disagree at all that a run of the mill private university would not be worth paying more for. I would not disagree at all that, for a kid that is just interested in picking up a degree, along with a good deal of partying and fun, might be better served at lower cost at a run of the mill state U. </p>

<p>It is true that a private school education can be a waste for a lot of kids. Heck, there are slackers at elite colleges, too. But that means nothing for the kids who take advantage of the greater resources and opportunities at these places. Or perhaps you think there is no difference between opportunities at Kansas State and Stanford?</p>

<p>Just my take on a few of the comments</p>

<p>I have twin sons who are sophomores in College. Both are in Computer Engineering. One is at a large private school that is a top 30 (US NEWS) university that costs over $50K per year. The other is at an OOS 3rd tier State University which is well respected in the field. </p>

<p>In comparing notes from their freshman year this last summer they saw little difference in the difficulty in classwork. In fact, their experience was very similar in so many ways. The son at the public school landed a great internship at semester of his freshman year and the opportunities are amazing. The son at the private is having a ball in a robotics club that is also a great opportunity. The only difference they have noted are smaller classes in the general sciences at the private and in the public quite a few students are dropping out of engineering. In the private there are fewer students struggling with grades. Both have found brilliant peers and there is no lack of academic challenge.</p>

<p>I am lucky in that they have nice scholarships. Both schools also met 100% of need with a large grant and out of pocket costs are almost identical. Point being if the private had not met the financial need then son one would not be at that school and so far it would not have been a disadvantage to attend the public.</p>

<p>Taxguy,</p>

<p>Keep up the good work. You pt of view is something many parents and kids need to hear and consider. Our s reported recently that he'd be feeling like a fool if he had gone to that top 10 private for $50K/yr knowing how much he loves his Honors program at UMCP.</p>

<p>jonri, My family is not independently wealthy. We do not have the privledge of divorcing earning potential from any decision we make. We highly value education but we also highly value fiscal responsibility. The two are not mutally exclusive. </p>

<p>There are many, many experiences I would love for my child to have. Experiences that would no doubt change his life for the better. Although that dream list for my child includes a lot of experiences ranked much higher than attending a college in the United States; especially one with a white majority population and where most students are from middle-class or higher earning families. </p>

<p>Experiences are not unlimited unless money is unlimited. My child is mature for his age but he's still my child and looks to us for financial guidance. The career fields he is considering require a lot of passion but do not involve a lot of money. We want him to have the freedom to chose a job or persue more education and he will not have that if he is still paying off his undergrad experience. </p>

<p>His father and I have done the same with our lives and do not regret it at all. If my husband had chosen something else besides military service, if I had not worked in non-profit and were not studying to become a teacher, then we could afforded to either save more or take on a large amount of debt for our son's college. We've had the tremendous gift of being able to make a living doing work we are passionate about, to have two decades of experiences that many people never have, in part, because we started our professional lives debt free. </p>

<p>Lastly, I did attend community college after leaving a four year college. I interacted more with a wider swath of Americans there than I ever did before or have since. I am not saying that the experiences are the same no matter where ones attend college, I agree they are different. Above all I am saying that the experience of attending an Ivy or the like is not inherently superior to other college or life experiences unless one's view of education is as narrow as the ones used to make tiers, rank colleges, etc.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Or perhaps you think there is no difference between opportunities at Kansas State and Stanford?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Who is saying there is no difference?. My arguement is that that statement is too vague yet people make one of the biggest financial decisions of their life based on it.</p>

<p>What does the student want to major in? What is this student's personality like? And so on. I weigh equally the impact will this decision have on the parent(s) and students financial future. There seem to be this idea that if someone prizes education, then to even consider giving equal weight to the reality of the finances is unacceptable. </p>

<p>My definition of education is not confined to formal education. As a result my obligation to my child's education includes factoring in finances. I want my child to have wonderful experiences but I do not believe that being in debt is a wondeful experience. Not for him and not for us.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Whoa, I can't believe that so many MISREAD my post number two. I didn't say that it would be crazy to attend an ivy or private school over a decent state university. I said, "it would be crazy to incur large debt attending an ivy school over attending a decent state university." I stand by the statement!</p>

<p>Yes, I do know that many of you have had kids who have had wonderful experiences at ( insert any private school name that you wish). However, how do you know that they wouldn't have had the same experiences and opportunities elsewhere? Also, if you had an extra $120,000, wouldn't that money been put to good use for a better retirement, graduate education, house for your kids etc.?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You see, you are making a value judgement on how else to spend the money......either for a different school where one can also get a good experience or else retirement, grad school, house for kids, or something else. I understand that YOU feel differently than some of us and that's OK. We each make value judgements when spending our money or even going into debt for something. For my husband and I, there is nothing we'd rather put money into than the kids' college educations and their going to the school of their choice that they feel is a very good fit for them (not a "better school"). I prefer to spend the money on that than most anything else. I was given these opportunities myself and want to pass this gift onto my children. </p>

<p>You ask how we know they would not have had the same experiences and opportunities elsewhere. For one thing, I believe a very good education can be had at many different schools, both public and private. My kids' schools are not "better" or "best" but I do believe each found the perfect match for herself. I am pretty sure there are some other schools out there that would have been good for them too....after all, they each applied to and were admitted to quite a few others that they liked enough to apply to. But even if a good education could be found elsewhere (which I do not doubt for a second), the experience would have been different as each environment is different. One can be a success coming out of all sorts of environments and so that is not the issue for us. But the fit is the issue. And there are lots of places where my kids could not have had as good of a fit or had similar experiences.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Frankly, I believe, and statistics and studies tend to show this, that the education received at a good state university with decent programs in the student's major will provide the same opportunities as that of the expensive private school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You can get an excellent education at a myriad of schools, including state ones, no question. What you are failing to weigh is what some of us are discussing here and that is the total experience (not simply how good the teachers or classes are or how successful you can be upon graduation or how much money you stand to earn). </p>

<p>I'm gonna give my own two kids as examples. </p>

<p>Oldest daughter....was (still is) a top student....val and all that jazz, who exceled academically, was highly motivated and driven, and was involved in many lifelong ECs and exceled at those as well. While she had no plans to apply to state U (UVM) as it was not a good fit for her (but is a very good school), she was offered a full ride. She went to Brown. I believe her experiences at the two places would be radically different and it was worth the difference in price (even if her chances at success are equal). For starters, she grew up in VT and wanted to experience a different type of setting and Brown was urban and she spent 18 years in a rural environment. We are glad she got to have a different experience. She craves challenges and the experience of being with other highly motivated students affected the learning environment. She experienced in some capacity the type of students at UVM by going to school with them and I can tell you it was night and day with her experiences at Brown. The stimulation from the other kids was a huge part of her experience there. Each person is doing something that just blows me away and their level of involvement both academically and in outside activities mirrors her own (not so locally). My D also wanted to major in architecture in a liberal arts setting. UVM doesn't offer that and Brown does but that is not a strong department at Brown but sufficed. My D rose up to be a leader in that dept. at Brown and won their top award at graduation. She got to be a TA and much more. Brown has an open curriculum which she loved. UVM doesn't. Brown allows for independent studies. My D wanted to ski competitively in college and she would never make the UVM ski team as it consists of some of the top national racers in the country, some even on the Olympic development team. She would never give up this lifelong activity and was able to ski for a very competitive team at Brown and loved it and it was a big part of her experience there. At Brown, she went to school with kids from all over the country and all over the world and that would have not been as much the case at UVM which is not nearly as diverse as Brown and it was all part of her experience. I could go on and on but am convinced that Brown fit my D to a T and that UVM would have been a fine education but not nearly the kind of experience that she needed and craved and thrived in that she had at Brown. The people she met there have influenced her life a great deal. I feel she also was looked upon favorably by grad schools and had a very successful grad school admissions outcome. </p>

<p>My other kid applied to very specialized degree programs that are highly competitive, BFAs in Musical Theater. She is now in her senior year at one of the top ones in the country, NYU/Tisch, which was a lifelong dream for her for years. I believe there are many other very fine BFA programs and she got into many of them. But this school has fit her perfectly. Many BFAs are not located in universities that are that academically selective, even though the BFA programs themselves are highly selective. But while artistically talented, she also is intellectually advanced and wanted a more challenging academic setting with a BFA in MT, and there are not alot that fit that description or that have as much liberal arts as part of the BFA degree as NYU/Tisch has. She is challenged by the level of talent of her peers there and would not want to be the top kid and would prefer to have other students who possess her level of motivation and talent in her learning environment. The opportunities she has been afforded at NYU include some that would simply never have happened at some other BFA programs. There are faculty and directors she has come in contact with there that are not like those at some other fine BFA schools. She has been given chances to work professionally and to musically direct and perform in NYC in various capacities while in school. She is networking with the industry and people in the city and having some very great opportunities. After graduation, she needs to live in NYC to hit the audition circuit and she is already embedded in the life in NYC. At NYU, D was also selected as a Tisch Scholar and was able to travel on two trips for free with them including one to Brazil, which I don't think she'd have at another BFA program. She has been able to take on many leadership roles there which maybe she could have at another school, I can't say. Tisch also has many studios and one can have the opportunity to experience more than one studio approach over their four years and my D has chosen to do that and she did five semesters in CAP21 studio (musical theater) and is doing 3 semesters in Experimental Theater Wing (an acting studio) which she could not have done at any other BFA school. Further, my D wanted to write, produce and perform in her own musical which she will be able to do in ETW studio and could likely not have done in any BFA in MT Program at any other school. I could go on and on but I believe that the experiences she is having are specific to her school and that she found her perfect fit and is making the most of what is offered there. She could have gotten a good education elsewhere, that's true. </p>

<p>But we find it priceless to have our kids find schools that match them this well. I don't care if another school may have been cheaper. Frankly, EVERY school my kids applied to was about as expensive. Both my kids received financial aid which also brought the price down. And yes, we are in debt for their educations and also will be for my older one who is in a 3 1/2 year grad program at MIT right now. We have chosen to not have our kids take out any debt for their education and so the issue of debt is for us alone and not them. Sure, I could have something else for the money but there is nothing else I would want but what I have chosen to spend it on and go in debt to pay for than their education. And it has nothing to do with the "best" education but simply the "best one for them." They luckily found that place.</p>

<p>soozievt, I was with you right up until the "priceless" part. No matter how many ways it's phrased, college is an expense. It has a price tag and your family can afford that price tag.
You are not allowing your children to take on this debt. I'm assuming you did not empty out your retirement savings, take out a second mortgage or take out loans in an amount such that you've put your financial future in jeopardy to do this. </p>

<p>There is a huge difference between "I could spend the money on other things" and "If I do this, I will have almost no chance to meet my retirement savings goals. If I do this, I will have wiped out my emergency fund in the event of illness or injury." And so on.</p>

<p>My concern is how this "it's priceless" concept impacts lower income families. I have know people, still know people, who use the "it's priceless" line regarding higher education to justify undoing every financial saftey net they had and/or make putting together a furture financial saftey net an impossibility for many years to come.</p>

<p>How could good parents deprive their children of something "priceless?" They couldn't! I have a friend, a single mother who just barely gets by, who allowed her daughter to take on nearly 100K in loans to get an Ivy League education. Yes, the school was a great fit and all of that. But the cold, hard truth is that her daughter will graduate next year a certified teacher. This concept that her degree is a golden ticket for the future is a hope, not a fact. Let me also ad that the lower income parents I know who have done this very much view this as an investment, not an "experience." </p>

<p>Priceless, in my opinion, is a word I save for love and the other intangibles. I am very, very leery of such powerful language being used about something with a price tag. Especially with families whose children have already gone without, who may already be feeling guilt about what they could not provide in the past.</p>

<p>pug...we are all in different situations. In our case, we had no money saved up for college. Our kids are on financial aid. We have taken on debt to pay for it. We had no retirement savings either. We are not low income but do not have the funds to pay for college out right either. But this is a big sacrifice but one that is our priority over the things that taxguy mentioned that such money COULD be used for. If someone cannot finance college loans because in order to do so, they would have no food or roof over their head, that is a different story. If it is this or retirement or having money to give kids for a home some day or a vacation or a second home or remodeling the current home or what not, as taxguy mentioned in part, we chose this, even if some other colleges may have been cheaper (though most of the ones they applied to cost in a similar range and actually even if their price tags were higher at these schools, they got more aid). The state U for my kids did not fit the kind of learner they are or what they wanted to do. And I am not saying this as a rich person who had the money set aside for college because I did not. My kids will not have college loans of their own because I don't believe in that as I want to be the one in debt for their education as this is my gift to them as it was given to me. It is something ingrained in me as a major priority.</p>

<p>Everyone has their own rubric for acceptable risk, I understand that and I respect that. Yet the rhetoric about higher education remains a concern to me. </p>

<p>That something is a priority does not mean someone has to be willing to go into debt to do it. I guess that's my bottom line. When parents ask themselves "How do I say no to Princeton", the expection seems to be that a good parent cannot say "no" unless they would wind up homeless. That's just too high of a bar in my opinion.</p>

<p>pugmadkate....well, I agree.....if a parent can't swing the payments and in order to do so, ends up homeless, then it likely is not worth it. But the scenarios that taxguy is talking about as to whether to pay for a more expensive school when a cheaper one also gives a good education and saving the money instead for retirement, funding a child's new home, etc., then it is a value judgment and it is not about going homeless or starving but about WHAT to spend your money on. And for that, we all have different priorities. Some can't picture going to a more expensive school when another one might suffice. Some feel that the more expensive school fits their child better and it is worth the bucks. This is all assuming that the family who is paying can find a way to make the payments without starving or going homeless in order to do so.</p>