Assuming applicant has everything else (wonderful grades, great extracurriculars, and high MCAT scores), how do med schools view an applicant having taken their premed courses over the summers at local non-flagship state U, rather than at extraordinarily competitive T20 school? Certainly, if student were to do these courses as a postbac year at a local state college, I don’t think they’d hold it against the art history applicant who decided later on that they wanted med school, that they then took their premeds at cheap local state U. I’m talking about the student who fills his schedule with their non-science major and other fulfilling classes at T20 school, and takes their basic science classes during the summer at local state college (of course getting A’s) and then does very well on the MCATs, ostensibly so as to take full advantage of all that their T20 has to offer, but in reality, to avoid the cut-throat competition in premed classes at T20 school. Applicant would still have T20 degree with stellar GPA, and the high MCAT would prove that applicant was optimally prepared, but would not have wasted valuable course time at T20 on “journeyman” premed classes that were incredibly competitive, with severe grade deflation.
How would a student who took all their premed requirements elsewhere get a committee recommendation from their hypothetical T20?
Ask the appropriate office at the university about their requirements for the committee recommendation letter. No one know the policies of a hypothetical unnamed school whether a State U or T20 school.
On another note, if one’s school transcript does not show any premed pre-requisite course grades to compare with other students of the same school, what conclusion can one draw about competitiveness of the candidate compared to other students of the same school.
Lots of students apply to medical school each year and don’t have Committee letters. This would apply to students who didn’t complete their prerequisite courses at their home university as well as non-traditional applicants (those applying later…and it doesn’t have to be five years later?) for whatever reason. @WayOutWestMom
We also can’t tell you about what ALL medical schools will think and do. That’s a hypothetical also.
Do you have specific undergrad and medical schools you are inquiring about?
In late 80’s, I applied as a nontraditional student without a committee letter. In fact, I didn’t even know such a thing as a committee letter even existed. Didn’t keep me from getting in just about everywhere I applied. I’m just asking if anyone has any knowledge of this. I just found out that one of kid’s schools is apparently cutthroat and grade-deflated, and besides, kid wants to double major in two non-science majors. It occurred to me that this might be the best way to do it - kid would get to take the best classes, with the best professors, squeeze the best possible out of that T20 school, and get the slog premed sciences out of the way in the summer at local state U. It would probably add another 12K to the total cost of college.
BTW, those committee letters can really be biased. I remember an extraordinarily handsome, charming young man whose credentials were okay, but nothing that special. But the woman who was the head of the committee was just ga-ga over him, thought he was just the best applicant the school had ever produced. For some applicants, bypassing the committee letter is probably a good idea.
I would be interested to know today what proportion of the 42% of students accepted to med school (most only get one acceptance) do not have a committee letter…@wayoutwestmom, any insight to that?
Some med schools require a committee letter, some don’t, so not getting a committee letter closes some doors.
I have always known pre-med advisors (whether external or internal) to recommend students not take classes, especially orgo, at a local college over the summer.
Things in medical school admissions change very rapidly every year, becoming more and more competitive each year (10-15% more applicants this year?). My older daughter who didn’t feel any pressure when she applied in 2015 and did extremely well with getting interviewed, was telling us recently she is not sure how well she would do now. This is based on advising students who are applying and getting paid 10 times her hourly salary as a resident for that advice (residency is a minimum wage job).
If I was a medical school admissions person, the first thing i would wonder about is whether this person is suitable for the profession since it would look like gaming the system just for GPA (that is the only conclusion one can draw if someone spent all summers taking premed classes outside their own school). I can imagine a full schedule at their school preventing them from taking every course and having to do some summers outside but an entire premed courselist sounds very unrealistic. I do know several med students who have taken some summer classes in community colleges while they are home but not more than 2-3 classes that are premed focused. Many state school students take required classes in history (Texas schools require texas state history) or english or something else for their graduation in Texas so they can actually take premed classes during school year. If someone finished undergrad, decided they now want to apply for medical school and so went back and did all their classes somewhere (ANYWHERE), it does not have the same question mark. They are now a nontrad.
Not all schools have committee letters. If a school has a committee letter and one does not get one, then it is a question mark. However, if one takes a gap year, they can use that to support not having a committee letter.
@texaspg why would it be “gaming the system” to take required courses for medical school admissions at a four year university that is not your home university?
Let’s just say, organic chemistry is difficult no matter where you take it. Ditto some of the other courses.
@parentologist I’m not sure I understand why your kid needs to double major in two areas that have no relation to her medical school future. Is she not sure she wants to apply to medical school? That’s OK…but why these other TWO majors with no relation to her medical school future?
Honestly, I’m not sure this will impact her medical school prospects…taking the courses at another four year university. But I’m not a medical school Adcom.
The only time NOT having a committee letter would be an issue is if the student was eligible to receive one, and didn’t.
Hoping @WayOutWestMom weighs in.
ETA
If she thinks these premed sciences are “slog”, she is going to have quite the time her first two years of medical school.
Here is one thread about this, where wayoutwestmom weighed in.
There are also threads on student doctor dot net about this, here’s one:
@thumper1 - how do you justify attending a 4 year university where you are full time but taking 1/3rd of your classes, specifically every class required for premed, at a totally different school, only in summer?
You can justify taking one or two summer classes that are random but we are talking 2 years of chemistry, 1 year of biology, 1 year of physics, some biochemistry, may be math which adds up to 3-4 full semesters of classes. Are we saying this kid would have done 6 years of classes in total? What do you do in the 4 years in the real college?
I do see @WayOutWestMom being skeptical in the above mentioned thread about taking just some classes outside but this thread’s premise is entire premed.
I stand by my previous post.
http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-topics/2065268-meeting-pre-med-requirements-at-summer-program-other-than-home-institution.html
I think a pre-med at top brand name school who has room in their schedule (and if they double major in 2 non-sciences–then they had room in their schedule since a double major is considered non-essential by med schools), but chooses not to take their pre-reqs there is going to get majorly dinged during the application review process.
In fact, many medical schools specifically advise students NOT to take their pre-reqs away from one’s home university.
Also applying from a undergrad that adcomms know offers a committee letter without a committee letter is going to generate serious red flag on the application and require an explanation. (A number of secondaries specifically ask why a committee letter isn’t included in the application packet.)
Alas! AMCAS doesn’t capture any data about the type of LORs an applicant has, nor does the MSQ ask about LORs. (It does ask about formal and informal advising, but not specifically about LORs.)
This is an entirely different situation. The presumption is that the student (not the parents) is paying for the post bacc, and the student is likely working full or part time just to be able to afford their classes. Thus price is important. Plus the student has already “proved” their ability to earn high grades in the previously earned BA/BS at the brand name school.
So…why doesn’t your daughter take her prerequisites courses at her four year university…and ditch the double major?
That would be the best thing to do…if she really wants to go to medical school.
We are lucky that in this country, with our educational system, no kid has to decide at age 17 that they are going to become a physician. I’ve got doctor cousins in other parts of the world, and although they thought their system was much better than ours when they were 19 and 20, now that they are all middle aged or heading towards retirement, and have the benefit of hindsight- they have said that they wished they’d had the luxury of the American system.
OP- your kid can take all the terrific courses to take advantage of the T-20 college, double major, go abroad, do all the things that the college may afford. If med school is in the cards- then do the post-Bacc. Or not.
But to orchestrate a sup-par med school application ahead of time- that seems unnecessary to me.
I know a couple of kids who have tried your plan (not every single med school pre-req-- but organic chemistry for sure and I think the bio requirements as well) and not one of them made it in to med school on the first or second try. I am not suggesting that this was the issue that kept them out- but if you’re graduating from Columbia but took your med school pre-req classes at a SUNY (one student), or graduating from Dartmouth but took your med school pre-req’s at CUNY over the summer- you are raising unnecessary questions about your academic program.
And the irony- the CUNY classes were MORE cut-throat than Dartmouth, according to this student. The expectation that a public college pre-med program would be filled with low-end students was ABSOLUTELY not true! Every quiz, test and problem set graded on a curve; one or two dumb mistakes could set you back an entire letter grade. Dartmouth was far more generous!
[quote="parentologist;c-22972761"I’m just asking if anyone has any knowledge of this. I just found out that one of kid’s schools is apparently cutthroat and grade-deflated, and besides, kid wants to double major in two non-science majors. .
[/quote]
This is the kid who is still in HS? The kid needs to worry about getting into college first.
Secondly, just the science prereq - even just the chem and bio prereqs- are too numerous to complete in the 3 summers of college.
I agree state schools are more harder because of the sheer volume of students trying to get through premed being weeded out. Only way to have better grades is to attend a school known of easy grading for specific classes during summer. I am currently advising a friend’s kid where the dad is very paranoid that the kid took physics in summer at community college although he has a very good GPA at his state flagship. The kid is really good at math and sciences but got burnt in high school AP physics and didn’t want to risk the grade in college. The kid already took a class and didn’t tell me so I couldn’t stop it. I am advising that physics II be taken in regular school to show that it wasn’t the ease of community college but scheduling.
There are two reasons that make this plan a really bad idea, IMO. First is complete burnout from taking classes all.year.long for four years. The other, and maybe more important reason is the lack time in the summer for doing EC’s that are absolutely necessary for a successful med school applicant to have.
Thanks for all the valuable feedback. I did 3 yrs at an Ivy, and one year at the “jewel in the crown” CUNY. Honestly, 90% of the people in my classes at the CUNY did not belong in college, as far as I could tell. BUT… none of those classes were premed classes. Then a little later wound up doing the premeds at the Ivy, post-bac, and they were very challenging, just like everything else at the Ivy. I went to a mid-tier med school, and found that there were quite a few people there who had done well at far less demanding undergrad schools, and gotten in. But I can definitely see the point that a post bac year at local state U would be a lot less suspicious than deliberately taking all premeds at local state college in the summers.
As for double majoring in other areas, medical schools love people who have humanities majors, and college, especially at a T20 school, is the time to take all those amazing classes with incredible professors, and explore interests. I see nothing wrong with using college as time to become well-educated in humanities, and do the pre-meds outside of the time spent at that T20.
But I’d forgotten that there are more specific forums on other sites with people who have been through it very recently.
Medical schools only love kids with humanities degrees IF they have also taken the prerequisite courses.
Your kid can do ONE major at this elite school should she be accepted. And also take the prerequisite courses for medical school…instead if that double major.
Why wouldn’t that be her plan?
But to @blossom and her point. This kid is in high school. If she plans to apply to medical school, she needs the prerequisite courses. If she plans to apply directly out of undergrad, she needs them as part of her undergrad program…not as an aside.
If she goes to medical school, she isn’t going to have a break in the action at all. I just can’t imagine going to summer school every summer (even at her Ivy should she get accepted) and then enrolling in medical school where she will be going non-stop. Give the kid a break.
And summer courses are truncated…and can really really be hard.
@parentologist D just started med school in Texas. She had a 97%ile MCAT score and attended a school currently ranked in top 5 (for whatever that ranking is worth) and graduated in engineering. None of that meant anything because when she applied to well known med schools, her performance at her school is compared to others who were applying. There were plenty of others who had 3.8 to 3.9 GPAs who were competing who got into elite medical schools while she blew her GPA in sophomore year on irrelevant and unneeded 5 credit language class (B or B+) among others because she likes languages and overloading on credits for no reason reducing focus.
My suggestion would be to put more focus on the planning and ensuring you do well in each class rather than assume one wont do well in their own school and must get better grades elsewhere. If you are able to get into a school, you are good enough to do well in that school. Unfortunately, doing good enough in undergrad normally means 3.2 GPA except when applying to medical schools which want to see 3.7 or 3.8.