How do you feel about your state flagship? Wishing for better ones in NY

Parents Forum
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<p>For years I've wondered why we don't have better state schools and now that we're starting the college process I think about the "public Ivies"and find myself looking at the US News rankings enviously. </p>

<p>California has UC Berkeley at 21, UCLA at 24, UC Davis and UCSD at 38, UCSB at 41. Other states in the top 40 are Michigan, Virginia, NC. </p>

<p>Scanning the list, I see at least 30 state schools ahead of the first NY state school on the list, which is 77, SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry. Descriptions of this school look great but I looked up student reviews and found so many very negative ones that I don't want to consider it for D. The next NY schools on the list are Binghamton University--SUNY at 89 and Stony Brook University--SUNY at 91. </p>

<p>Still, NY is a bit better off than MA: University of Massachusetts—Amherst is # 97.</p>

<p>I know that US News rankings aren't everything and that some of the state systems like CA are having their troubles. Still, I can't help envying states that have well-regarded and nationally recognized flagships.</p>

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<p>On the flip side of things, the SUNY system has lots of campuses that offer many different options to New York’s students. Some states pour all the resources into the flagship.</p>

<p>(I’d never heard the term flagship until starting the college search process with my daughter. I’m from New York, and, as you note–New York doesn’t have one.)</p>

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<p>Buffalo, Binghamton, and Stony Brook each thinks it is the flagship. None of them is bad, although Bing’s surroundings are a little depressing. If you combined them, it would probably be a pretty terrific flagship. So while none of them is as well-rounded as Michigan, Berkeley, etc., depending on your child’s interests one or another of them can be pretty fine.</p>

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<p>I think NY’s system is very good. They decided to be flagship-free a long time ago, but a lot of their schools are much more than run-of-the-mill state directionals. One of the benefits of the flagship-free system is that they have never let the spending on sports get out of hand. NY does have some of what I would see as typical teachers-college directionals (I would put Cortland in that category) but there are subject-matter niche schools, such as FIT, Purchase, and ESF. There are also the Upstate and Downstate medical colleges with some specialized undergrad programs. Then Binghamton and Geneseo are rather competitive to get into. Buffalo offers the big-school experience. Albany, in the state capital, offers particularly fertile ground for internship exposure, if a kid is interested in law and government. There’s the small school option at places like New Paltz, which has gotten a lot of good press in the past several years, more so than the typical directional. Delhi offers the four-year experience to vocationally-oriented kids from the lower end of the academic spectrum. I think it’s an overall state university system configuration that can probably meet more varied needs than the flagship-and-teachers’-colleges model a lot of states follow.</p>

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<p>Rankings only get you so far. Reality is a lot more nuanced than what can be boiled down to a ranking number.</p>

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<p>And then there is the Ag School at Cornell as an in-state option.</p>

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<p>They probably suffer in the rankings because the rankings tend to be heavily based on incoming student stats, and the region tends to have a lot of high-stats students who have an “anywhere but state school” attitude.</p>

<p>NY also does not seem to concentrate its top departments across many subjects in one of its campuses (as a typical flagship does). This is not necessarily a problem for a student who knows what s/he wants to study and chooses the matching SUNY campus (e.g. go to Stony Brook to study CS or physics), but could be an issue for an undecided student who may choose between majors whose strong departments are not at the same SUNY.</p>

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<p>What has made us shy away from the Massachusetts state universities is that it appears for what an in state student has to pay for going there, the facilities should be in much better shape. My husband graduated in the mid-70’s from UMASS AMHERST and when he took our son to visit the school, he was very surprised that buildings that needed major renovations in the 70’s are still there and in disrepair. I would say that our state tax dollars are not being spent at the Universities. On the other hand, some of the areas of study at UMASS AMHERST are very strong- especially nursing, engineering and business. Thus, I guess if you can get past the asthetics of UMASS AMHERST, you can get a decent education.</p>

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<p>Don’t get caught up in rankings. Every school has something to offer and while the entire school may be lower ranked, that one program might be the best in the nation or one of the best. Unless it really matters to you what sweatshirt you wear, find the school that is the best fit for you and ignore some random rankings.</p>

<p>Our state schools are fine and have some really top notch programs, however, they are expensive and not on our kids’ list of places they are applying to.</p>

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Suny Binghamton had that problem with its basketball program a few years back.</p>

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<p>Crepes, I always hoped a person would ask a question like you did in the title of your thread, but I would have preferred something along the lines of “What do you love about your state flagship if it is not located in California, Virginia, North Carolina or Michigan?”(Often, people on CC list only those states has having the state universities recognized as truly great and worthy of the title of “Public Ivy.”)</p>

<p>While you said US News Rankings are not everything, you did mention state flagships that were in the “top 40” in US News rankings of National Universities. Those rankings include both private and public universities. I would recommend people interested in the topic of state flagships also look at a separate listing in the US News college rankings for “Public Universities.” </p>

<p>I think that there is a tendency on CC for state flagships (with the exception of those in Michigan, Virginia, North Carolina and California) to be stereotyped or painted with such a broad brush that other top state flagships may be underappreciated or overlooked. I encourage people interested in this topic to look at the US News list of public universities just to see where the flagships and other state universities are evaluated in relation to each other. There are other fine state flagships beside the ones you mentioned. (And please, I hope no one criticizes me for limiting my post to state flagships rather than including other state universities, that was the question asked in the post.)</p>

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<p>limulus, about the Cornell option, the good part is that there are actually 4 colleges with the in-state tuition rate–Agriculture and Life Sciences, Human Ecology, Industrial and Labor Relations and Veterinary Medicine. The bad part is that the in-state tuition rate is not at all comparable to typical in-state school tuition–it’s $27,000, which looks good only when compared to regular Cornell tuition of $43,000 and other private schools’ tuition. </p>

<p>rigaudon, envy of schools like U of Michigan (which I love, I spent a summer there doing post-grad work), Berkeley and U Va was part of what started me on this thread. But I’ve also been thinking of a talk I had with a HS friend–I mentioned saving for our kids’ college and he said he hadn’t saved much, said he’d always just assumed that his kids would go to their state school (U of Washington) </p>

<p>I’ve heard of NY kids who try to establish residence in NJ so they can go to Rutgers. And lots of kids from my D’s school end up going to state flagships in nearby states–U of Delaware, U of Maryland, Penn State, U Conn.</p>

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<p>Actually, the SUNY system is not flagship-free. Instead, they have 4 flagship campuses: Binghamton, Stonybrook, Buffalo, and Albany. </p>

<p>Granted, I can understand somewhat why Albany wasn’t included by a commenter. It was widely regarded by New Yorkers as the “party flagship” within the SUNY system. </p>

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<p>Back in the early-late '90s, Geneseo was regarded as a dump by many New Yorkers…especially those at my public magnet. Only kids I knew who went there tended to be near/at the bottom of their graduating HS classes, disposed to taking drugs, and/or hoping to form the next great cheesy hair metal band. </p>

<p>No academically top kids…or even those in the top 75-80% of the class in my HS days would even look at Geneseo. Most of the ones in NYC would rather go to Bing, Stonybrook, Buffalo…or even some of the top CUNY flagships like Brooklyn College Honors. </p>

<p>Geneseo being highly competitive is a very recent phenomenon. </p>

<p>I’ve also been hearing gripes from several Bing alums that the school’s rankings has endured a steep drop since they’ve graduated from the mid-'80s till the 90’s. Most are blaming the state government and SUNY/Bing admins. </p>

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<p>Considering I know dozens of HS classmates and many other students who transferred out of the SUNY/CUNY flagships…including Bing because they felt the academics weren’t enough of a challenge and they were hamstrung by an underfunded educational bureaucracy focused on remedial programs and teaching to the LCD, I can understand why the high-stats/top students would have such an attitude. </p>

<p>From their accounts, attending SUNY/CUNY…even honors is the equivalent of continuing their high school experience at a comparable or in the case of those attending academically rigorous high schools, downgraded high school for 13th grade onwards. </p>

<p>Fortunately, CUNY has taken some steps to cater to the high-stats students through Macaulay Honors. Unfortunately, such programs didn’t exist in the '90s and the SUNY/CUNYs were widely regarded as schools of last resort for those in the middle-bottom of the class.</p>

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<p>My son is in his second year at UMass Amherst studying engineering. So far I have been very impressed with the school (and I am an Ivy League grad from back when it was affordable). Yes, there are some buildings that need renovation, but they are building a new honors college complex, a new classroom building, a new life sciences building, renovating one of the dining halls, and built a new athletic center a couple of years ago. [Facilities</a> Planning Facilities Planning Home](<a href=“http://www.umass.edu/fp/]Facilities”>Design & Construction Management | Facilities & Campus Services | UMass Amherst)</p>

<p>My son lives in one of the Southwest Towers, built in the 1960’s, and it appreared freshly painted when he moved in a couple of weeks ago. The food in the dining halls is stunningly good (and the best part is parents eat free when accompanied by their student). I am impressed with the attention to detail for such a large school. Move-in was very well organized, right down to the bag with the fresh muffins, bananas and orange juice handled to each car waiting in line to load-in.</p>

<p>UMass suffers from being in a state that has traditionally given the back seat to public universities due to the powerhouse private universities located in and around Boston. But the number of applications is up, scores are up (average GPA now 3.6 something), and parents and students are increasingly realizing that it offers an excellent value and a great education. And as noted in other threads, the difference between an 89 and a 97 in the US News rankings really isn’t much–Binghamton, Stony Brook, and UMass Amherst are all great schools.</p>

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<p>It’s hard to say that of the 3 state unis that one is the flagship; two would probably qualify. One’s science focus is medicine. Another’s is technology and agriculture. The third state school is the smallest and used to be the teacher’s college, altthough one can now major in education and be certified to teach at any of the three.</p>

<p>What do I hate? All are very large. We have no reciprocity agreements with any other states. All three are bunched up in the middle of the state. There are no smaller, directional Us or college. For many, many residents, communting to an in-state campus is out of the question. The nearest one to me is almost 3 horus away. The other two are closer to 4 hours away. </p>

<p>I don’t even know what the rankings are for undergraduate programs. See, with no state aid programs at the public schools, and the need to live on campus, we found better deals at private schools. </p>

<p>I’d be thrilled with New York’s system, if for no other reason than there would have been more affordable choices.</p>

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Geneseo used to be a pretty good teachers’ college and it had 3:1 female to male ratio. At least that I was told in the '80.</p>

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<p>Now, that’s funny, given the large number of NJ high school students posting in these forums who have an “anywhere but Rutgers” attitude.</p>

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<p>Any schools that my kids could graduate with little debt and find a job is state flagship. Regardless big or small.</p>

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<p>I live in Maryland, and we like our flagship, the University of Maryland at College Park, just fine. It’s my son’s alma mater, and he had a good experience there. For extremely high achievers (which my son was not), it’s also a great bargain, since most such kids (at least the in-state ones) get at least partial merit scholarships. I know of several kids (National Merit Finalist level types) who got full rides.</p>

<p>But we Marylanders look across the border with wistful envy at the vast buffet of options within the Virginia state system. They have something for everyone, whether it’s UVa, William and Mary, Virginia Tech, James Madison, Mary Washington, George Mason, or a half dozen other places that I can’t think of at the moment. Each is different and would appeal to a different group of students. Quite a few Maryland students pay out-of-state tuition to attend Virginia state schools.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, the similarly vast New York system doesn’t seem to have the same positive reputation as the Virginia one.</p>

<p>Just as an aside, the University of Delaware may be a good destination for a student who wants a state school and is willing to pay out-of-state rates. There are lots of out-of-staters there, and the criteria for admission for out-of-staters are not particularly formidable. Nice place, too. In my opinion, a lot nicer than Rutgers.</p>

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<p>D1’s at Rutgers in the ag school and so far it’s great. She wouldn’t look at it until senior year (after a summer at Cornell) and then it was a one-and-she’s-done application in October. She is getting a lot of experience that I don’t think many other schools would have offered a sophomore. (20+ AP credits helped, including Bio & Chem, jump start the process). </p>

<p>I know people in NJ constantly hear how much is spent on football, however the spirit it generates is great. In 4 years she went to a handfull of her HS’s football games, yet she made it to most Rutgers home games last year and already the one last Saturday. </p>

<p>My biggest gripe so far is how they handle the housing process in the Spring semester. I also wonder for undecided liberal arts majors how they find their way, as it is a big school. (the professional programs are well-regarded: engineering, business, pharmacy, nursing, and ag).</p>