How do you figure out where your kid stands?

College Majors Music Major
1

This may seem like a foolish question, but now that S19 is a rising senior, we’re really struggling with a final list of music schools. He’s a jazz saxophone player, along with hundreds of others, and is thinking of doing music education. We think he’s great, of course, but how high should he be reaching? What defines “safety” for this kid, vs. reach and match? Is he likely to get merit awards, and if so, from whom? How much do academics matter?

All of this was quite straightforward for our two “non-music” kids - we had GPAs, test scores, and extracurriculars to give us basic parameters for where to apply. We did reaches, matches, and safeties. They both did well.

Now I’m totally at sea. He wants to limit the number of auditions to about six – but some people tell us to apply to 10 or more schools. Should we reach for schools where his grades won’t get him in on their own? He’s got a solid 3.7 unweighted GPA, would Northwestern or U Michigan consider him? He recently got into the all-state jazz ensemble as tenor 2 – does that change the picture? What about scholarships?

Thanks for listening to my rant. I’d welcome your advice.

2

Hi there! Yep, we have all been there and wondering “where we stood”. A few questions to help us help you.

  1. does he have a private teacher? They can be your biggest help in the process.
  2. has S competed in other things in/out of state? Been to music camps? Those can be (not always) good indicators.

Music education and music performance majors have different admission and degree requirmentse. The 10 school idea is usually more for performance majors where the competition can be stiff. Have you looked up requirements for your state school for Music Ed?e That could be a good place to start to see the baseline for admission and scholarships.

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I really want to follow this as the parent of an up and coming senior too!

One thing I was just talking to my kid about is applying to various schools. I think 6 auditions is a good number. However, that also doesn’t mean you wouldn’t want to apply more schools, especially if a number of them were requiring pre-screens. You can pick and choose which auditions to travel to if you get through the pre-screen. I feel like for us as a family hoping for merit options trying for more is better than less. My kid is likely trying for a performance degree (vocal) though so that’s a little different too. I’d just check your pre-screen requirements. I was just looking at those for us and was surprised by some programs that required them and some that didn’t. If there are pre-screens you may want a couple more options.

Does your son have a private teacher? Talking to teachers that have sent kids on to a variety of music programs and has worked with my son has been helpful for direction.

We visited Northwestern school of music and they were talking a hard line on getting accepted to the University as a whole and being very discouraging if you weren’t academically in range the day we were there. But I’ve seen mixed stories elsewhere. My kid is considering applying there as a reachy option.

I hope someone weighs in on Michigan. I’m not sure that’s worth it for us considering 2 of my kids safeties are big ten publics but I’m pretty sure my kid would like it as he likes the other ones.

4

We’re having the same trouble. It’s so hard to choose a list of schools for applications when we’ve no idea where he’s admissible or where he might get enough merit to make things affordbale. Academic merit money is easier to guess at.
We know where he stands in our own state for the most part, but son hasn’t done camps or summer programs. They always conflict with other things, including the start of school here.
His choir teacher, whose opinion I trust, says she thinks he’d be scholarshipped almost anywhere for voice. Even though I trust that this teacher knows her stuff, I don’t know how to take that. There’s a long list of schools we still couldn’t afford with a small scholarship, but is he really that good? For cello it’s harder. He’s playing the right repertoire level. He has some measurable accomplishments but not as many as voice, and less help gauging talent from his teachers.
My big question—is music ed treated the same as a performance degree for music merit, or is he cutting himself out of the merit money pool, or a large portion of it, but choosing education over performance? The answer to that question could change the application list by a lot. It’s not going to change his choice of major. He really wants to be a teacher. I suppose he could be persuaded to double major, maybe.

5

Great question re music ed! I’d like to know as well.

6

I don’t think this is a foolish question at all! In fact, it was one of my most anxious questions during this process. I can’t remember who said it in one of the threads but someone stated that our kids have a good idea of where they stack up musically with their peers. With a little investigating, you can find the music schools that still want high academics (Northwestern, USC, etc) and those that offer more latidude on testing. But for music performance…so hard to know. And your kid may have a bad audition day. My D applied to a few non-audition safeties just to have all bases covered. It ended up placating dad and not much more.

I never got the impression that her performance history mattered for admission. The audition panel wanted to hear her perform. And the more she liked the school, the better she sang. Reach, match and safety seemed irrelevant as her grades/test scores were below most of the schools that admitted her. It was so much easier to predict for my academically oriented daughter!

She relied heavily on her voice teacher as well who told us that she was “good enough to apply anywhere but that doesn’t mean she will get in.”

Also, he doesn’t have to audition at every school he applies to. So he can go a little bigger in the application round and then reduce the number of auditions to a manageable number.

7

This question will probably keep me up at night on and off through April!

I don’t have a kid who will be aiming for the best music schools - I’m trying to steer him towards public universities with decent programs - because he got a late start. He dislikes most academic subjects, but his academics (3.7/3.95 GPA/34 ACT) are probably better than his playing. So I guess he’s looking for academic merit, not music merit, to stay within budget. I would prefer to spend significantly less than “within budget” so he has 529 funds left for grad school.

He hasn’t had the advantage of spending his summers in music programs where he can see how he stacks up. He is going to a one-week program next week which I guess might provide some insight. If there are 13 year olds who started very young playing circles around him, where does he go from there? I don’t know. There are a lot of schools.

Everyone suggests identifying some non-audition safeties. I’ve only located one non-audition program so far, and the degree requirements (outside of music) are very unappealing to him. Instead, I’ll probably tell him he needs to apply to at least one or two schools in a different (non-music) major and I’ll keep feeling guilty for not handing him a bow and the tiniest bass in first grade.

Things were much easier with my older kid who had significantly lower stats and a “normal” major in mind when she went through the process.

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It’s good to know that many of us are struggling with this. I’ve done a lot of research but still feel somewhat lost. My kid has a good GPA (3.8/4.2, including top grades in band, chorus, and AP Theory). Weaker SATs, but he’s known for quite a while that he wants to do an audition program so we haven’t pushed on the testing.

He has been to two summer camps: Berklee last summer, and Eastman this summer. He did well at Berklee (where he had a scholarship) and felt like he was in a pretty high echelon, but there were 1,000 kids and I’d say only a couple hundred were serious musicians. He’s currently at Eastman, where he says the other kids in his band are amazing (he’s pretty overwhelmed by this, in fact – says everyone is a stronger soloist than he is, hopefully he’ll learn a lot!). On the other hand, there are only 43 kids in the program and he’s in the more senior group. So maybe he’s about halfway down the pack?

The only other data point is that he made the NJ all-state jazz ensemble this year, which is a pretty small ensemble with lots of competition, as T2. He also made T1 in the NJYS Big Band, which is more of a regional thing.

His teacher feels that his tone is excellent and that he’s “extremely teachable,” which I guess means he can apply anywhere. However, he supports his goal of doing music ed rather than pushing for performance (this is fine with him–teaching, recording, and the occasional performance appeal to him more than the performance life). He’s interested in learning other instruments and strengthening his piano playing, as well. And he loves vocal music, and is in his high school’s high honors choir.

We’ve toured/visited a number of schools. He’s comfortable with our state university music school, which would be very affordable, as a back-up, but it’s not his first choice. So far he’s liked Berklee and loved Ithaca College and Syracuse, both places where he can do music ed with a jazz focus and also explore related fields like music psychology. He’d need to get money to go to a private school, though, and he also plans to get a master’s.

So that’s four schools (he also visited Temple and SUNY Purchase, but neither were a fit for him). How do we get from here to ten? Should he go for an Eastman, Oberlin, or U. Michigan? Even if he gets in, would there be any chance he could get a scholarship? Are there places we are missing? He doesn’t want to go south (likes it cold, go figure), but is open otherwise.

It’s so complicated! The opposite of my older kids, who both did ED at the school of their choice. Thanks for listening!

9

@BearHouse is correct in mentioning that the kids often know where they fit in. I would suggest the following:

1.) Listen to the private/high school teachers (unless they have little or no recent experience with kids entering college in which case you may want to try to get your kid in front of a teacher who does this summer or a teacher at a local university/college with a decent music program). It is hard to believe anyone when you are anxious. And there are no guarantees. But those teachers typically have a good idea and are essential to building a good list. But still you will question it…

2.) Have your kid watch the on-line videos from target schools. Most schools have these available on their websites or youtube. No kid wants to walk into a program that’s completely over their head. And they don’t want to go to a program where the singing/playing level is lower than their high school program. They should be able to notice this. And YOU may not be able to…so it is essential that your kid do this.

3.) When you go to visit or audition try to see a performance. In my D’s case, some schools were only visited at audition time and luckily we were able to see performances and this had a big impact on her interest in the school. There was one school (her safety) where she really felt the performance level was too low. Most of the other schools she felt inspired and didn’t seem to think they were impossibilities. Also a day of interaction at the school with some students really seemed to have an impression on her. So…be patient!

If you really feel uncertain about level, I would go wide with the pre-screens. This is what pre-screens are for! You can do a good number of pre-screens (9+) and then wait. If your kid passes all pre-screens, you can start cutting back then because you know that you are at the right level of school. If you pass 9 pre-screens, you are going to get offers. If your kid passes only a few pre-screens, you will want to attend all auditions.

I made my kid have a non-audition school and thankfully it was a good fit (BA theater) so I didn’t feel like I was forcing it too much. Still in hindsight I feel that it was fair for her to do that little “favor” for me so I could sleep at night…as I was spending a lot of time and money and wanted it to be a two-way street…meaning she had to give me a little something. Most importantly I wanted her to think outside of the box…which after college they will be required to do! It’s not all about them and their dreams in real life. So having a conversation about the what ifs and the how can you do it differently is certainly OK. I have no regrets about that.

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Ah, this is not at all a silly question, @akapiratequeen !! It is not possible to judge talent/potential/ability in a concrete way, so by definition this is a tricky process. By ALL means, get as many “professional” opinions regarding what schools may be a good fit for your son ; personally, I regard this as a question of fit. Sometimes early trial lessons can be very helpful for this (have your student ask hard questions about placement in the program…are they a contender?). And I second @bridgenail 's advice about beefing up your prescreen schools (since this is a relatively cheap way of allowing programs to screen for ability/talent/potential). I will just share that for my D, we felt she was at something of a disadvantage against her peers in terms of # of years studying classically, etc… AND, D famously got a polite “No, thank you” to the Oberlin summer program for the summer before Senior Year. In our experience, she received much more lukewarm attention from" lower-level" programs after auditions (in terms of talent merit and just attention) and got some really flattering attention, and fantastic merit offers from “bigger” schools, including her largest offer from Oberlin, lol. So I guess you never know!!! I do recommend a well weighted list of schools, with some programs you’re pretty sure he can get into and would enjoy. After that, I say shoot for it! Definitely try for a dream program or two!

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Thank you @dramasopranomom and others! So far, none of S’s schools require prescreens for jazz saxophone so he’d be traveling for the auditions. Agree about adding more to the list, especially if schools take the common app, and seeing where the interest lies. Also LOVE the idea of having S check out videos on school websites. We saw a jazz performance at our state school and he definitely felt that he’d be one of the top players. Eastman not so much! :smiley:

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“Should he go for an Eastman, Oberlin, or U. Michigan? Even if he gets in, would there be any chance he could get a scholarship?”

@akapiratequeen , I don’t think there is a true answer to your question. There are so many variables other than talent that will determine acceptance and amount of merit scholarship offered such as school immediate needs, audition performance and budget availability. There is no way to find out unless your S applies to these schools. What does he have to lose? Not being accepted with scholarship is the same end result as not applying. Also, from our family’s experience, auditioning U Michigan and Oberlin the same weekend is doable.

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@coloraturadad Thanks for the advice! We will add. It helps that they take the common app. MaybeNorthwestern as well, what the heck.

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At Oberlin, the college and conservatory have separate admission offices and requirements, so be sure you are looking at both. The conservatory has a program called PACE that is somewhat like a music ed degree. Many of the performance majors also take pedagogy courses to help prepare them to have their own studios one day.

15

“How do you know where your kid stands?” I’ll throw out some things that worked for my D back in ‘15/‘16. Maybe they will help you. First, bc we live in a major metro area, she was able to participate in some local and one national competition for both experience and to self-assess. She also sought opportunities to work with college professors thru sample lessons and solicited feedback (other students in this area also start studying with the local college professors in addition to their regular studio teacher). Several profs take on HS students as vocal coaches. Through NATS, she was fortunate to be selected for a master class in college auditioning which was tremendous help - she learned that 2 of her pieces would likely prove to be too difficult for accompanists and one was too old for her voice. We had a tenuous connection with a Met performer who was also a mezzo and she used it to brainstorm better repertoire. She was fortunate to pass all 5 pre-screens. Importantly, she also pursued 2 non-pre-screen programs (Michigan, Boston U) just in case her pre-screen videos weren’t strong enough - your student will not know if there is a prob until it’s too late! A studio friend unfortunately did not pass any pre-screens and even with great stats and regional competition wins was locked out of auditioning at Vanderbilt, USC, Northwestern, Oberlin. Options - your student will want to keep all his/her options open until closer to the end of the audition season.

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So here is a story about my asking a similar question. I am not a musician and have little natural music talent. So I found myself very confused and a bit baffled about where my son stood and what it meant that he wanted to apply to conservatory so I asked his teacher and this is what his private high school teacher wrote,

"Unfortunately, it’s not how I judge X’s musical abilities, but more a
matter of how he plans on transforming his interests in music into something
which are artistically satisfying while being at the same time commercially
successful. No matter what happens, I’m assuming that he’ll have to be
financially independent at some point. The issue is that the music industry
is extremely challenging, and highly competitive. It takes the right blend
of musicianship, intellect and perseverance to find a way to make a living
at this. In my case, I have only felt confident about my musical career
since last summer, but I have been working on this career either my entire
life or at least since 1990, when I graduated from high school. Most people
would have given up a long time ago (I tried!), but music was the only thing
for me.

So, when you ask me about X’s abilities, I think about a context which
includes what I just said about the industry. Is he talented? Yes. Is he
the most talented bassist I have known? No, and he’s also not the most
talented bassist I am currently working with. But none of those things
matter if he is truly set on pursuing music. What matters, in that case, is
finding ways to support his evolution. Is it possible that he will have the
right combination of characteristics necessary to pursue music as a career?
Definitely."

Fast Forward to a year later. Our son was accepted to every conservatory he applied to. I was still feeling unsure about his ability to be a musician and I asked one of the teachers at MSM that was courting him whether our son had what it took to make it as a musician. That teacher than said another version of what was written above. He told me he has seen incredibly talented students enter conservatory and flat-line. And he has seen students more like our son who take off and grow into amazing musicians. He said there was no way to know. And then he reiterated what our son’s high school teacher said which is that finding one’s place in the music world is not easy these days.

Fast Forward to four years later: Our son graduated from conservatory and was going to attend Berklee Global for a fully funded one year masters. We were in London where his mentor- an extremely well known young Jazz musician was performing as part of some festival at Southwark Cathedral. We went and afterwards stood in line to introduce ourselves and say how sorry our son had just missed this performance and had flown home the day before. The Jazz musician was thrilled to meet us and told us how the two of them had a special bond since they both started at the conservatory at the same time. I then said, “You know I spent the past four years hearing how X says he 'wants your life.” And the musician responded, “HE CAN HAVE IT.” He was exhausted and in post-performance mode and not teacher mode. And when he saw the shocked look on our faces he apologized and assured us our son would be fine, but finding one’s place in the music world is indeed challenging.

Fast Forward to today: Our son spent the past year in NYC. He taught high school music appreciation to pay the bills. He found teaching exhausting and it left little and energy for him to break into the NY scene. He also has continued to work on his master’s thesis project. He practices. He has at various times this past year told us he has no interest in being a performer, has flirted with quitting music altogether, has complained about the bro-culture among young Jazz musicians, and felt discouraged. Then this spring he was accepted into a competitive summer Jazz program. It was his third time applying and this time he applied with music he not only played but music he had composed himself. It was a big boost and he needed it. He returned to teach at his undergraduate conservatory summer program and during that week he spent time with a range of musicians (including his high school teacher who wrote the first entry in this story). At the end he told us he is once again driven to achieve his music goals and absolutely determined to practice and work on his project and try to establish himself as a working musician. Next year he will be teaching less and hopefully gigging more.

I hope that gives you new parents who are a bit on edge as your kids dive into this challenging music world what that journey can look like.

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@StacJip
Wow! Thank you for sharing. I will show it to my son. Good luck to your son and keep us posted!

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This was an amazing story and reality check, @StacJip — thank you. My son’s teacher has also said it’s not the talent past a certain point — it’s the focus. No idea at this point where my son’s journey will lead, and you’ve reminded me that that’s okay! My job is to love and support him in any case.

Thanks again.

19

I think graded music exam results, teachers’ comments, competition results, scholarships…all contribute to giving an idea of where one stands. The kids themselves would probably have their own judgments, too.

While such ‘assessments’ would be helpful in determining the college application list, the evaluation process itself is a good lesson to learn – boosters and disappointments would come side by side, and learning to deal with the latter would help build resilience, an essential quality to possess for those who have set their mind on a music career.

S is constantly adjusting his evaluation of his own strengths and weaknesses while participating in summer programs these few weeks. Hope at the end he will be a stronger musician in terms of not only skills but also personality.

20

For kids who have the opportunities to do professional performances and/or do a lot of competitions and/or attend summer programs, if you are auditioning and getting good feedback before college, you’ll most likely get the same during and after college. And, you’ll most likely get college acceptances. It’s all part of the same game.

The kids that I knew who did not get acceptances or did not stick with music in college were often kids that were not performing outside of school/church (when there were opportunities). They simply did not audition a lot. This does not mean that if you don’t have those opportunities or the resources to take advantage of the opportunities that you don’t have a shot. You most certainly do!! And there are always late bloomers as well.

I’m referring more to an attitude. Are you willing to put yourself out there for potential disappointment/competition or do you stay in the comfort zone of school performances where you will get cast no matter what. The performers who audition a lot, practice it a lot, typically do well.

Your kid has to have a strong desire to audition (no matter what). That’s what everyone should be trying to figure out. Does your kid want to audition for the rest of their lives? That may be key in making it or not.

There’s an old “running” saying: the will to win is nothing compared to the will to prepare.