<p>Just to clarify: my post was for the original poster!</p>
<p>I’m in the middle of it with my son now, and I’ve learned enough to write a novel. The good news is he has auditioned and looks to be in some great schools with scholarship dollars, the tough part will be making that final decision.</p>
<p>To clarify a few things - academics matter, especially at more competitive schools. You can’t be a bad student and get in a good college on musical talent alone, though you can be below academic freshman averages and get in via music. The audition is based on talent, and they look for potential. Connecting with the professors in advance is highly recommended, and I can tell you all about how and why you should do this as early as the junior year. If your county and state offer things like all-state bands, try out and get in - a huge advantage as it says you are one of the best. The decent programs don’t ask for DVDs or CDs in advance - it all comes down to doing it live, in person, under that pressure. For an instrumentalist, don’t try to show off technical skills by picking a harder audition song, it actually hurts more than it helps - ask another student, but pick something fairly simple, as they want to know if you make the right sounds and play “musically.”. And yes, generally speaking you have two separate application processes to deal with at each school you apply to - all the paperwork associated with the general application, and an entirely separate one for music. Specific items for a music app are honors and awards, repertoire, letters of recommendation from music teachers, and essays on why music and career goals. I could go on and on but my fingers hurt from typing so I’ll leave it there.</p>
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<p>Not sure if you said what you meant to say, StoneMagic.</p>
<p>Things may have changed in the past several years, but when my music major son applied to colleges, several of “the decent programs” (lots of the most-respected ones) DID require a DVD or CD in advance for their pre-screenings. That way, school faculty don’t have to audition every Tom, Dick, and Harry who has their sights unrealistically set on an elite music school. The schools that require pre-screenings listen to their applicants’ DVDs or CDs and then invite those who make the cut to audition in person. You are right – it will eventually come down to auditioning in person. But several of the country’s top music schools do require pre-screenings first, in the form of a DVD or CD.</p>
<p>Simple, I believe there is a disconnect in how yall are defining the word “decent”. Stone is looking at flagship type state universities and not conservatories or “la te da” institutes. </p>
<p>So he was refering to these major state universities as “decent” (as opposed to “famous” or “fabulous” or “less than mediocre” or “crappy”), and he is correct that they generally don’t require recordings.</p>
<p>Thanks for the link to MajoringinMusic.com. I have son who is a performance major already in music school but my next up plays a completely different instrument (violin) and its like starting all over again so this is a great help. I think violin performance major auditions should come with free massages- for the parents:))))</p>
<p>A couple of points from the last poster:</p>
<p>“The decent programs don’t ask for DVDs or CDs in advance -”</p>
<p>I don’t know what the poster was saying with this but it isn’t true. Most of the top level music programs I know of have switched to a pre-screening format for music performance majors, and for a very good reason. The major music schools, like the HYP level of academic schools, are swamped with requests to audition, a school like Juilliard or NEC or whatever could get several hundred violinists auditioning for 30 slots, and it is just too insane, plus they don’t want to waste their time on those who obviously don’t meet their standards (kind of like the kid with the 3.0 and 1500 SAT applying to an HYP level school). The pre screen weeds out candidates below a certain level so they can concentrate on the kids they feel have a chance, so they may audition let’s say 80 violinists for 30 slots (that is a hypothetical, I don’t know the number), lot easier then 300. It can vary from department to department as well, some departments might not require a pre screen dvd or cd while others do. </p>
<p>Once you are past the pre screen, then yes it becomes the audition. Does potential come into play in an audition? Of course, but I also would be very careful about how far that goes, with the major music programs if you don’t have a high level of technical ability, if you don’t display excellent intonation and things like playing a romantic concerto different from a classical one, it is highly unlikely you won’t get in, even if you display a lot of potential, simply because the level of applying music students is incredibly high. Of course other factors come into play, but having seen the kids who get into the top programs, I have seen very few ‘diamonds in the rough’, more like differences between one clarity level and another…every instrument is different, of course, and voice is different because vocal development happens at its own pace, but as a general rule I am pretty certain of this. </p>
<p>One other note about DVD’s and CD’s that is valid, it is probably better to audition in person then via those methods, from everything I can tell it is harder to get accepted that way. Among other things, I have met some people involved in auditioning students that way (common for overseas students) and they have told of disappointments with kids admitted that way, some have taken to doing live auditions regionally overseas to avoid that…</p>
<p>I also would be very careful about statements about all state band or orchestra or whatever being the ‘best’, or having weight with admissions to a music performance program (obviously, those will have weight as an EC if in a ‘regular’ music degree program or academic program). That like many things in music is it all ‘depends’. While All region, all state, etc, do have some meaning as a measuring stick for musical achievement, it also depends on where you live and so forth. If you are talking the NY metro region, I would argue that one from personal experience and from what I have seen as a parent. They could be the best of the best in some places, because that is the highest level music program available (some states all states are pretty high level), but in other places the competition is fierce. In the NY metro region, there are some incredibly high level music programs, including the pre college programs of Juilliard and MSM and so forth, plus you have things like the New York Youth Symphony, and very few if any of their students do all state or all county or whatever, it is a small handful (and quite honestly, many of the teachers discourage their kids from going into those programs), and I have heard similar things with kids at NEC prep, CIM prep, Colburne’s high school programs and so forth. It does show anywhere the best of the kids who auditioned for it, and it is an achievement, but it doesn’t mean that a kid in all state or whatever is necessarily at the top of the talent pool that will be auditioning at top end music programs. </p>
<p>Does that mean All State and All county are not worth it? Of course not, at the very least it is a performing opportunity and those are important, and it is a nice measure of achievement for any music student obviously, and in some places it represents a pretty high level of achievement, depends on where you are. </p>
<p>That said, where a student demonstrates if they are of the caliber to get in is the audition, the fact that a kid went to let’s say NEC prep won’t get them admitted to Juilliard, what is on their CV isn’t even known in the audition process. In theory something like being in an All State or going to a top level prep program might help deadlock ties i n the admissions office, but from what I have heard from admissions people, it would need to be a pretty big deadlock to go to that level. Knowing teachers does help, because the admissions process is passing the audition and having a teacher want to teach you, so if the student already has seen teachers, they would be more willing to click off ‘willing to teach student’ then going in cold. Can a teacher get a student in a music school through influence? Possibly, but on the other hand no teacher is going to try and get a student in, even if that is possible, if the student is not up to high levels, no teacher would embarrass themselves like that. About the only influence I have seen is that the major music schools with pre college divisions generally don’t require their own students to do a pre screen, since they meet the minimum (and even then, only then a minority number of kids in the pre college programs who audition for the college program get in…)</p>
<p>Musicprnt, your missing the point. The poster said “decent”. Not “famous” or “all-that” or “la-ta-da”. </p>
<p>He is 100% correct. Most decent colleges don’t require a recording. It’s only the super-duper ones that do.</p>
<p>It’s all a matter of perspective.</p>
<p>"Simple, I believe there is a disconnect in how yall are defining the word “decent”. Stone is looking at flagship type state universities and not conservatories or “la te da” institutes. "</p>
<p>That response is uncalled for and quite frankly is rude, that statement about “la te da” institutes would be as insulting if someone called the music program at a major state school like Alabama “football stadium music” or the like. The poster didn’t say that having a pre screen was a sign of the only great programs, they were responding to the term decent that could mean anything,from the post there was no context about what decent meant. BTW some of the flagship state programs Stone is talking about are 'la te da" level too, you don’t get into U Michigan’s school of music without being up there in playing ability, it is just as elite as many of the ‘la te da’ institutes you sneer at. </p>
<p>I would also bet as music students turn towards the state schools because of financial concerns and admissions goes up, you will see pre screens there as well. The reason for the pre screens is to bring order to the admissions process and make it better. Put it this way, I have seen what auditions look like when the panels have to see 100 or more students in a couple of days, it means rushed auditions and crankly panelists and woe betide those at the end of the days on audition days…</p>
<p>^^Seriously, imagep. It’s a stretch to say that StoneMagic was “100% correct.”
Who are you to define what constitutes “decent?” The schools you prefer to call “la te da” or “famous” or “all that” are “decent” as well.</p>
<p>It doesn’t bother me if StoneMagic misspoke. Or if StoneMagic thinks that your “la te da” schools aren’t decent. Whatever s/he thinks … it’s no business of mine.</p>
<p>But to say that the decent programs don’t ask for DVDs or CDs (which implies that if they DO ask for DVDs or CDs, they are NOT decent) is misleading.</p>
<p>Since people come here to learn about stuff, I thought it bore clarification: there ARE decent programs that ask for DVDs and CDs. (meaning: StoneMagic was not 100% correct. But that’s not the point. StoneMagic was trying to be helpful. No blame there. The point is: decent programs MAY require DVDs and CDs.)</p>
<p>Simplelife, right on. One of the things on here that is so important is not make statements like ‘this is the truth’ or ‘this is 100% right’, for the very reason that comes up so often, that conventional wisdom is not always true, and that experiences vary. I suspect a lot of posters on here, including myself, have been guilty of that, which is why it is important to phrase things with ‘in my experience’ and so forth. For example, when StoneLife said that “All state or all area” groups represent ‘the best of the best’ and will help in admissions, the answer to that is “it depends”, on the state and what school. All state prob would look decent as an EC applying to the academic portion of the university, but to a performance music program it would probably mean next to nothing, since the audition rules all there and what is on the cv has limited value (has nothing to do with all state, same thing would apply to going to a pre college program, music festivals, etc), it is different then an academic admission. It is like the discussion on admissions into music programs and academic achievement/ap’s/etc, it depends on the school and the student. Even at academically inclined schools like U Michigan or Northwestern I know of students who got into the music school there, high level players, who didn’t have 9 AP and honors classes, etc, they had relatively few, though they did do well in high school academically (some of them were homeschooled), but they were at the right side of the bell curve musically, had serious credentials behind them <em>shrug</em>. </p>
<p>I too had a problem with the term “decent” schools the way it was used, or that it was referring to a state school music program (some state school music programs are decent, some of them approach the top level, lot of them are so so <em>shrug</em>), and I read the same thing you did, saying in effect that if a program is ‘decent’ they won’t ask for a dvd/cd…another problem of the net, intent is very hard to read, whereas when you know someone and have context, you can tell. From glancing around, it is true that state schools of music that I sampled don’t require pre screening cd’s/dvd’s, but a lot of the private university music programs that would be on a comparable level to the ‘decent’ state schools do require them. And I strongly suspect the pre screen is going to be the rule going forward, among other things, it saves the school money and time auditioning students who have no chance of making it, plus quite honestly it also saves students the expense and time of auditioning for a program they don’t have a chance to get into.</p>
<p>^Yep. That’s my sentiment as well. :)</p>
<p>Either an institution requires a prescreen for a particular program or it doesn’t. It’s on the school’s website. No need to give an institution a label to determine if a prescreen is required. But as Musicprnt said, we all, including I, are guilty of absolutes every now and then.</p>
<p>^Agreed. :)</p>
<p>Musicprnt and SimpleLife, I appolgize if identifying a difference in samanitics somehow offended you. And yes, Alabama does have some good “football stadium music”, along with a mighty good football team. Of course they have more music than marching band at Alabama, and everyone knows that. </p>
<p>I can scarcely see how I offended anyone by identifying that top conservatories and top music programs are in a different class than Alabama may be in. I understand why you may take acception to the terms “super duper” or “la ta da”, but I think they got the point across. Just to clue you in on my thought process a little, near where I work there is a business called “La Ta Da’s” and they sell high end fancy stuff. I admire the fact that they are grounded enough that they can jest about their product line.</p>
<p>Personally, if someone was to hand me a list and tell me to rate each item on the list as poor, decent or great, I would obviously wouldnt rate the most prestigious items as “decent” - I would rank them as “great” and no one would argue against that.</p>
<p>Regardless, I think we are arguing over language and not concepts or facts, and the fact that most schools dont require recordings and that some higher end schools do require recordings has been quite well made so I will let the issue drop.</p>
<p>^Just to be clear, imagep, identifying a difference in sEmantics did not offend me. In fact, to say I was offended is a stretch. But I was irritated. I was trying to clarify an important distinction. You were trying to … ?</p>
<p>When did Alabama come up, btw? When I read StoneMagic’s post, I didn’t think crappy or great or la-te-da or Alabama. I just thought, “Oops. That’s not quite right. There ARE decent schools that require recordings. ” So I thought I’d correct it. If I interpreted his/her post that way, chances were good that others would interpret it that way. I have no criticism for StoneMagic. Whether s/he misspoke or whether s/he had bad information, we ALL have been in her/his shoes. No matter. I just wanted to politely put the correct information out there.</p>
<p>From what I could tell, nobody (other than you) was attempting to rank schools or apply labels to schools. I was just clarifying lest anybody who was asked for a screening DVD/CD think that “their” school wasn’t very “decent,” or lest they were misled to think they wouldn’t need a DVD/CD come application time. (I personally think it’s a good idea for any serious music applicant to prepare a recording over the summer prior to their senior year – just in case.)
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<p>So, my issue with your posts was NOT semantics. It was that you appeared haughty and know-it-all, and to what end? None of us are resident experts as to who is “100% correct” or who is “missing the point.” As you said yourself, “It’s all a matter of perspective.” For me (and apparently musicprnt) the point WAS that sometimes pre-screenings are required by decent schools. For you, the point was apparently semantics.</p>
<p>(Btw, just off the top of my head, I can think of two state schools that require pre-screenings. They’re not “super-duper” schools. My impression is that whether or not a school requires pre-screenings is a factor of how many students apply each year and/or how short-staffed they are during application time.)</p>
<p>And now, back to your regularly scheduled programming. …</p>
<p>FWIW, UMich, (despite being a state flagship 
does require pre-screen for some of its studios and/or degree programs, and does not require pre-screen for others. The SOM also requlres academic pre-clearance to be invited to submit portfolios for music tech/pat and composition (not sure if academic pre-clearance is required to get an audition date or not). So, it goes without saying that if pre-screen policy is by studio at that institution, it’s pretty hard to characterize entire tiers of schools as requiring pre-screen or not, or suggesting it means a thing in terms of caliber of program ;)</p>
<p>Simple-</p>
<p>I brought up Alabama in response to Imageps use of “la te da”,“all that” schools as a description of the top music programs, I said that the way that was written would be like dismissing the University of Alabama’s school of music as ‘football music’. I was a bit more insulted, using terms like “la te da” and “all-that” is deragatory, those are terms usually used to denigrate things that are snobbish, elitist and ‘all full of themselves’, among other things, it assumes somehow looking down at the ‘merely decent’ programs, and that is ridiculous. I don’t know about everyone else, but when someone uses ‘la te da’, it usually is in the context of “la-re-da, aren’t we all high and mighty” and the like…<em>ick</em></p>
<p>^Oh. Yeah. I get the Alabama reference now. I do remember that.</p>
<p>I also agree that his tone and word-choice were derogatory. It was ironic – it felt as though he were looking down his nose at US for being all la-te-da and holier-than-thou, when in reality HE was the one who was assigning value to the various schools and to our experiences/opinions. I certainly don’t look down on any programs as ‘merely decent.’ (I assume the same about you. I’ve read your posts for years.)</p>
<p>Of course, he doesn’t know me. Throughout my time on CC I have expressed my opinion that students should apply only to ‘great-fit’ schools (vs what are supposed to be our country’s ‘best’ schools). Then, of the schools that accept them, they should, imo, attend the cheapest school possible, after scholarships and grants, as opposed to the ‘most prestigious’ school that accepts them. (It all works as long as they only apply to ‘great-fit’ schools. In the case of a music major, ‘fit’ would be in terms of music teacher, ensembles, academics, feel, location, and whatever else is important to the applicant.) College rankings do not, imo = best schools. Each of my kids has very happily chosen his/her college using this philosophy, and they’ve each attended very cheaply! So it was quite ironic that I would be perceived as an elitist here.</p>
<p>I understand where you’re coming from. Oh well. Etiquette. Whatcha gonna do?</p>
<p>Simple-</p>
<p>I totally agree about fit and finances have to play a role. Given the precarious nature of music, it is ridiculous to spend a fortune to go to one of the ‘elite’ schools if you can go to a good program and pay less. Some people have construed what I have said on here to mean if you don’t go to a ‘top’ music school you have no chance in music (which isn’t the truth, what I did say was that you better be someone at or near the level of getting into a top program in many forms of instrumental music, big difference, and I was referring to classical music specifically when I said that). The school matters to a certain extent, of course, but a good student can pull a great education out of almost anywhere, the difference between a ‘decent’ school and one of the ‘elite’ ones is the average level of the students, a decent school with great teachers can be just as good or perhaps better then an elite one, depends on the student.</p>
<p>Easy people - allow me to clarify. I can’t speak for a Julliard or Eastman, but no major state universities ask for a DVD or CD, and I am talking about at least two in the “Top 12” music school rankings overall. Conservatories are a different deal, but unless said kid is a given to make it at that level as a freshman, they tend to focus on the graduate level. So yes by “decent” I am talking about major state universities and some private large universities with strong music programs.</p>
<p>The challenge with CDs or DVDs is that they can be faked or at least rigged too easily - for example, you can practice the music 250 times and record only the best take. You might screw up 9 out of 10 times you play that song, but that 1 out of 10 is what makes it on the DVD. CDs are an even bigger problem in that you can’t even verify it’s the same person. Sooner or later, it comes down to a live audition…that’s all I’m saying.</p>
<p>And I’m not here to judge if one school is better than another - there are too many factors that go into such an evaluation, and it really does vary by student, instrument, goals, professor, size, cost, etc. </p>
<p>BTW, for those who REALLY want to know what a music school requires, I suggest you actually post the name of the school right here rather than talk in the abstract. For the record, Florida State, University of South Carolina, U of Florida and U of Miami do NOT ask for or want your CD/DVD in advance.</p>