declined from conservatories...devestated

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>In the last 2 days, i've received letters from both OBERLIN conservatory and SUNY Purchase conservatory saying that at this time they will not allow me entrance into their music program for the fall of 2009..this was all just from my pre-screen c.d...I am very devastated from this and i now believe i will not get accepted anywhere (prescreen or audition required or not).</p>

<p>Most people both music major and non music majors alike either say something along the lines of "they dont know what they are missing" or "it's not that you arent talented everybody thinks you are, it's just the quota they have"..which was said on the actual letters sent to me by these conservatories.</p>

<p>I'm just wondering if this means that maybe my skills arent meant to be or good enough for a place such as a conservatory of music? Or is it just bad luck?..right now i have two colleges left to audition at SUNY new paltz on march 28th and SUNY oneonta (music industry)..these arent conservatories but i heard they were very good LAC with decent music programs...also is nessicarly bad to have a B.s. or B.A. in music compared to a B.m.?</p>

<p>oh and im not sure if this is true, but ive been hearing this alot about what conservatories do to students it's from what my friend said when i was declined to both oberlin and purchase: </p>

<p>"yo man, if they reject you its not cause they don't think you're talented, you're amazing, its just the standards they uphold. they are insanely intense, and meant for insanely intense/talented people. conservatories turn musicians into MACHINES/everybody almost sounds the same.. and sometimes it affects their musical personality and normal personality in unfavorable ways. i've seen it."</p>

<p>thats something for you future applicants to conservatories to think about, ONCE again im not sure if its true or not..it could be, my friend said hes not saying everyone turns out like that but the people he has seen come out of conservatories end up like that.</p>

<p>but still... awesome schools if you can get in!</p>

<p>leave your thouhgts/advice thanks</p>

2

<p>whoops sorry about my sloppy spelling by the way on the thread/post..</p>

<p>please help me out, especially if you are or know someone who is/has been in the same spot as myself.</p>

<p>Thank you college confidential!</p>

3

<p>I wish there was something I could say that would make the hurt and anger disappear. Even when a school might not be the best match for you and your interests, there's still a real sting in a rejection. Try not to let it throw you.</p>

<p>Remember that most people do better in live auditions than in a recording, so make sure you put together a killer audition that really showcases your stills for New Paltz and Oneonta.</p>

4

<p>thanks for the support stradmom,</p>

<p>I feel the same way with the whole live vs. recorded audition thing, it's just that many schools including OBERLIN and Purchase require a pre screen c.d. to decide if they want you to live audition or not.</p>

<p>I'm not too upset about oberlin due to the fact that literallly a week before the letter came to my house, i was told i did not due the correct requirements for the pre screen cd...i read it thinkin i should just have basic jazz stylings and then play the material on a live audition, however it turns out the material i thouhght was for the live audition was actuallymeant for the pre screen!..I ALSO could not afford oberlin if i was accepted anyways</p>

<p>but with PUrchase i'm very upset because not only was that one of my top schools buti actually liked the conservatory when visited!...i much rather have done a live audition to show my skills but thats the breaks, i'm trying to make this a learning experience and stay positive!..it just..well SUCKS, alot and puts a huge damper on my confidence</p>

5

<p>There could be reasons they rejected you that have nothing to do with your abilities. Like you said, you did not put the correct repertoire on the CD, or the CD may not have been the best recording. Jazz is also hard to prepare a CD for screening because they want to hear you, and not you with a band.</p>

<p>Also, while you may be an awesome musician, you may not be the type they are looking for. You may have too modern a style, and they want a more classical jazz sound.</p>

<p>Finally, have you had private lessons? They are not just listening for your style/abilities/sound, but they are also listening for your technique. For instance, a singer may have a great sound, but terrible breathing technique. You may not have the minimum technical abilities they want in their students. They may feel it would take them too long to train you in the basics before you could realize the full benefit of going to a conservatory.</p>

<p>I suggest you attempt to meet professors well before audition / prescreen time. That gives you a chance to let them hear you live. If they are impressed, the may put in a good word to have your prescreening approved. They may also suggest areas were you may need improvement before you are ready to audition for them.</p>

<p>I wouldn't say that conservatories turn you into a machine. They may make sure that all their students have the basic techniques down in the way that they teach it. At the undergrad level, that ensures that you are ready to succeed in graduate school. I heard professional musicians practice scales for hours every day. Does that make them a "machine"? Maybe. But, it also ensure that their fingers can do whatever is required of them in the playing the piece.</p>

6

<p>First, I'm sorry you are disappointed. Realize that both Oberlin and Purchase are highly competitive, and the prescreening rejection is a way for programs to minimize the pool of auditioners, making the physical process more manageable by keeping the numbers to a point that will achieve the yield they need in selecting applicants to fill the open slots in each year's class. Realize also that in any given year, the "need" can change through addition/reduction in faculty or ensemble needs; some years you may see an extremely tough peer group in terms of prescreen and audition pool.</p>

<p>O & P are among the top (Purchase has become very competitive in the past few years), and you will find crossover between applicants, as many are also applying to Juilliard, Eastman, NEC, Indiana, or any of the "best" programs.</p>

<p>It's impossible to gauge talent and potential via an internet forum, but from your previous posts you haven't provided a lot of background information as to your musical experiences, prior levels of training, as well as the intensity with which you pursued it. Realize that a good part of your competition has been playing for years, have had extensive private instruction, high quality participatory ensemble play, and intense summer immersion programs over a period of many years. The last two years at a cc may or may not have exposed you to the breath and depth of musical experiences necessary to further your development. </p>

<p>Part of the process in determining what school is best is for a student is assessing their talent and potential. This is often impossible to do without an unbiased, detached assessment from peers, instructors, performing professionals. Self or parental assessement is difficult, and often impossible. </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=258796%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=258796&lt;/a> is an excellent overview of the whole process of selecting and applying to schools for music disciplines.</p>

<p>In some cases students take a year off to pursue intense private instruction to prepare for top tier auditions. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. There are "gap year" threads within this forum accessible through the search function. There are undergrads that attain BMs in performance and realize afterward they don't have the chops or determination or personality to make it as performing musicians. I'd suggest reading through <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=460187%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=460187&lt;/a> if you haven't already</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/561184-help-understanding-ba-vs-bfa-vs-bm.html?highlight=Understanding%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/561184-help-understanding-ba-vs-bfa-vs-bm.html?highlight=Understanding&lt;/a> is a fairly detailed explanation of the general differences between BA's & BM's. The BS in music tends to be awarded in some music education programs or in music technology programs depending on focus. Part of knowing what "might" be best is contingent on your focus; from a performance standpoint, a BM is the more frequent as it offers the most participatory playing opportunities and requirements.</p>

<p>As for conservatory versus university/lac environments, no one school is right for everyone. There is nothing inherently right or wrong with the conservatory approach, but it has to "fit" the student. Some need or want academics at a high level, some want a more rounded educational approach, some do not "need" music 24/7 to succeed. There are numerous prior threads here offering different viewpoints and experiences.</p>

<p>Without knowing your specific musical goals, aspirations, and discipline, it's difficult to counsel you. Different skill sets and talents are required for different disciplines.</p>

<p>stradmom offers excellent advice. Be as prepared as possible for your remaining auditions. Good luck to you.</p>

7

<p>Djalabingo, I think you've gotten great advice from the parents above. I just want to add my sympathies. It's very hard to be rejected while doing something that is connected so intimately to your soul. Best of luck to you in your remaining interviews. I'm sure your passion for and interest in your music will show through in your live auditions. Good luck!</p>

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<p>djalabingo, I am so sorry to hear of your disappointment. It really stings to be turned down BUT I have seen so many people your age wind up where they never thought they would go and realize that it was meant to be. If you spend a year at a LAC like New Paltz or Oneonta and still feel the drive to get into Purchase, then apply again. Chances are, you will make your mark in another music department and wonder what you were so upset about. Violadad had a lot of good practical advice. Conservatories have an applicant pool of kids who have been training intensely for years, learning theory on an advanced level, playing with highly competitive ensembles, etc. etc. Purchase, in particular, because it is so small, has one of the most competitive admissions of any music school out there. I remember my son was auditioning alongside some of the top jazz students in the country when he was at the Purchase audition. They offer admissions to Grammy Band musicians and Vail Jazz musicians. It is one tough place to get into. If you really want to be in that environment, you can work on your skills and try again. </p>

<p>And don't be discouraged! Knock em dead in your live auditions.</p>

9

<p>
[quote]
I'm just wondering if this means that maybe my skills arent meant to be or good enough for a place such as a conservatory of music? Or is it just bad luck?..

[/quote]
</p>

<p>There's really no way of telling. In the case of Oberlin, you apparently submitted the wrong material. Your skills (or some of them) may or may not be adequate for the program. It could be a tough competition pool, or a year with only one or two openings. One way to find out is to call and ask... some schools reveal deficiencies or explanations for "rejected" auditions, some don't. </p>

<p>The other point to remember that any audition is a crap shoot. Any combo of the above factors coupled with others (illness, a mental or technical lapse, above average competition) will work against you.</p>

<p>Being well prepared and playing your best is no guarantee. Life for a prospective performing or gigging musician is a continuing series of rejections. Most accept that and deal with it, or they eventually move on.</p>

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<p>ALL of you offer extraordinary advice and give me a new outlook on life particularly the school thing, as far as what opera dad said about a bachelor's degree is basically preparing a music student to go into their masters?..so basically you cant become successful without your masters now days?</p>

<p>As far as violadad goes, thank you for advice a great deal and i will full on admit that i have not had full on experience/training like many students who apply/attend conservatories, i will tell you my experience and how hard/not hard i have pursued music.</p>

<p>i started playing drums and percussion at age 12 not taking it very seriously but still joinin in my almost non existent concert band, by age 14 i discovered drumset and joined the schools weak jazz band playing almost more rock type songs then traditional jazz..at this time from age 14 til the time my mom passed away (15) i began taking drumset lessons with david cohen who graduated from university of north texas with a music degree</p>

<p>at 15 i was forced to move to my dads house dude to my family death situation, at my new high school i entered the still not spectacular concert and jazz band, i continued to try and play music and what not, so the summer of my junior year i joined hochstein school of music (rochestr new york)jazz camp to further my jazz studies, still not convinced of the whole jazz idiom.</p>

<p>my senior year was tough because i had a major back surgery that put me out of classes for 3 months and had to stop playing drums for about 6 months, but once i recoverd i played NYSSMA'S solo fest for classial snare drum level 6 and score a 97/100, also my senior year i played in new york state all state band, which was a blast i met some fabulous musicians.</p>

<p>from there i was accepted to bowling green university and potsdam and mcc, but not wanting to move far away from home i decided to stay in mcc for music studies, at this time i began studying with hochstein school of music's rich felice (berklee college of music) just to learn more about classical percussion and learning scales, i was also playing in mcc's smal jazzl combo with john nyerges as a director, this is when i first started thinkin of music as a possibility/living..i stayed one semester in the music program and had to leave mcc for 2 semesters due to severe health problems and returned in the spring of '07 to finish up as a liberal arts major.</p>

<p>which brings me to now i have received my degree, and i have been studying strictly drumset with allan ward who has studied with world renown drummer billy hart..</p>

<p>i know i dont have the best resources or possibly skills to be in a mjaor conservatory but i'd just like to become successful at what i'd like to do, which is music!..sorry this is such a long post, but i'd figured i should give you guys my history so maybe you can further help me out on my decision process!..and to whole heartedly say that im not trying to become a rock star, just simply the best musician i can be nothing more!</p>

<p>thanks,</p>

<p>DJ</p>

11

<p>Oberlin and Purchase are VERY selective, high level institutions. A very small percentage of applicants gain admission, and surely the instruments requiring pre-screening CDs are against the toughest, sometimes astronomical odds. Like a poster above said, in many years in many instruments, gaining admission to Oberlin and Purchase (Oberlin especially) can be just as hard as gaining admission to top conservatories like Juiliiard, Eastman, NEC, Indiana, etc.</p>

<p>There is NO shame at all in not succeeding. Audition based programs are nearly impossible to gauge in terms of chances of admission.</p>

<p>You're probably mature enough by now to understand that you shouldn't need sugarcoating the perspectives to make you feel better - i.e. you're not so naive anymore that you should need someone to find excuses for you. (stuff like quota limits, they "dont know what they're missing", you don't want to go there anyway, they turn you into machine, etc etc etc)</p>

<p>Instead, use the rejections as motivation to work harder. If you got rejected just from a prescreening CD - it probably means you're just simply not good enough at this point in time. Those who ARE good enough, but can't make it due to quotas and politics are usually not eliminated until live audition rounds. But understand that this is just simply a gauge of your level at this current point in time. It's pointless to start getting bitter towards the schools, or look for explanations. You are still young and new in your musical development, and by channelling your energy from the hurt and anger into motivation for more work, then this can ultimately turn out to be a blessing in disguise.</p>

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<p>Sounds as if you have had some excellent teachers. Did they listen to the pre-screen?
It also sounds as if you've had a lot to deal with, and that despite that, you have been developing your talent. It's that kind of perseverance that you will need if you are really dead set on a music career.<br>
Two rejections are nothing. Nothing. If you embark on a music career, be prepared for more. Make sure you are prepared for auditions. Practice them. Ask your teachers to help you. Four schools is not enough, in my opinion, for someone in your situation.<br>
I have more of a tough love approach....nothing can stop you if you really, really want this. But you have to work incredibly hard, make sure you are prepared, and have another plan if it doesn't work THIS TIME AROUND. Good luck and let us know how it goes. I'm rooting for you.</p>

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<p>thanks steph haha yeah i realize that the sugar coated stuff isnt true, its just what ive heard before thats all.</p>

<p>and yes i realize that me not getting past the pre screen round, most likely means i am not at the level i need to be to attend these conservatories..bad recordings or not...it is like i said earlier just disappointing! haha..i did not know however all the other factors that could happen during an audition process, ex: numbers, applicant level etc., you might be good enough to attend the school but they might not be looking for your style etc.</p>

<p>and i will use this as motivation, i just hope i will eventually find something for me eventually with a decent program weather its a university, lac, conservatory or b.a./b.f.a./b.s. or b.m. degree, i just want to be successful and work hard all while having fun</p>

14

<p>Getting into NY State jazz band for percussion is quite an achievement!! Interestingly, an All-State percussionist from our high school was rejected from Purchase two years ago. They must have so many drummers applying. You are obviously a very talented kid.</p>

15

<p>Oberlin is a very tough admit for jazz these days. They got a couple of multi-million dollar gifts a year or two back that were designated for building a whole new wing on the conservatory for the jazz department, plus a major donation of what was one of the world's largest private collections of vintage jazz recordings and memorabilia. Because of all that, some very talented applicants who would have only considered a program in a major city having a top-notch pro jazz scene are giving Oberlin a second look. They have always had lots of very good applicants, but they are getting more these days because they are moving out of the dreary ex-gymnasium that they had been using into a state-of-the-art facility designed just for them.</p>

<p>To make matters even more difficult, Billy Hart is one of the most sought-after jazz drummers in the business, both as a player and a teacher. He has been a regular for people like Stan Getz and Herbie Hancock. He is also the one and only jazz percussion teacher at Oberlin. You should not get down on yourself because you did not make the cut for the very limited number of places in his studio.</p>

<p>Hang in there. The reason you apply to several schools is because you expect some of them to say no. You still have a couple more shots at getting into very good programs and want to do your best at those auditions. This is not the time to start doubting yourself because that will come through in your playing.</p>

16

<p>
[quote]
... returned in the spring of '07 to finish up as a liberal arts major.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So you have an undergrad degree, and now you want to go to a conservatory?</p>

<p>That might be the problem with Oberlin. They are undergrad only, and you may not fit in with their student profile.</p>

<p>
[quote]
bachelor's degree is basically preparing a music student to go into their masters?..so basically you cant become successful without your masters now days?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>An undergrad degree is preparing the student as their abilities mature. The male voice doesn't mature until the late 20's, early 30's. I think mid 20's is not uncommon for other instruments.</p>

<p>That's not to say you can't be successful with just an undergrad. Look at how many teen idols are out there. If you want to fully develop your talent in a classical way, you have to keep taking lessons. How many 21 year olds are playing with the major symphony orchestras?</p>

<p>I would defer to a college professor, but I think you should be looking at:</p>

<p>Taking music classes to fill in the theory and stuff expected of music majors.
Keep taking private lessons to continue to develop your talent.
Then apply to a conservatory as a graduate student.</p>

17

<p>jazz mom, i was not in the all state jazz band just the concert band, thanks for the compliment tho..i was unaware that where was an all state jazz band however...and yes purchase is one tough school to get into, perhaps i will try my luck again there for my masters degree</p>

<p>bassdad, i had no clue oberlin was becoming this popular/prestigious..very interesting and i dont feel as bad for getting declined!..thank you for the moarl support about applying/auditioning </p>

<p>and operadad, no sir i've just received my associates degree in liberal arts, correct me if im wrong but i thouhgt an undergrad degree is the same as bachelors? but thank you for your tips, i've been hearing more and more from my peers/professors that most people dont enter actuall conservatories til they have their bachelors degree/in their mid 20's..i mean i do not want to be just a teen idol, like i said i'd like to be the best musician possible..but at the same time i do not want it to be the only thing in my life you know?..maybe its best that i stick to a LAC/univerisity to get my b.s. in contemporary music studies or b.a. in jazz studies or music business somewhere and when/if the time comes and im still interested illl move on to my masters studying in jazz studies</p>

<p>i know it must not mean alot to you guys, but you've all helped me greatly to decide what i really want out of my college experience as well as whats expected from me and what to do later in my music career <em>such as moving to a conservatory for my masters</em>..thank you all for your help! :)</p>

<p>i do have one more question for anyone who can offer some input, i was looking at the contemporary music/urban pop b.m. program at columbia college chicago..and when i visited there i found out alot of my "general studies" courses wouldnt transfer..so of course i was a lil bummed when i found that out, but isoon found out from the dean of music that if i get my bachelors from another university/conservatory/what have you, that my gen ed credits will automatically be erased as well as many credits that can be apply to the major at columbia, they said it wouldnt exactly be another bachelors degree but more of like a performers certificate..purchase also has the same degree, does anyone know anything about it?..is it looked down upon compared to a masters degree, because the only program that has to doanything with music in the masters idiom is music business...but iwould like to study contemporary music and urban pop!..columbia college chicago was orginally my number 1 choice due to the location the staff and just the general open hearted vibe got there until i heard about credits transferring...just wondering what you guys thouhgt about that..</p>

<p>thanks</p>

18

<p>In general, a "certificate" doesn't carry the same prestige as an actual "degree." Your AA would have the same significance, imo.</p>

<p>From what you say about your musical interests, I'm guessing CCC might be a good place for you. This forum is much more "classically" oriented than CCC, so it doesn't get much discussion here. Also, CCC doesn't emphasize the kinds of SAT scores etc. that makes for a prestigious institution for most of the people on College Confidential. </p>

<p>But for certain programs - film, contemporary/urban music, audio, especially - it's top notch. They hire professors with tons of real world experience and encourage their students to get out and make contacts in the field. My S is a live sound reinforcement major at CCC - feel free to PM me if you want more info.</p>

19

<p>I'd like to nuance Stradmom's opinion re the standing of a Performer's Certificate or Artists Diploma (the terms are generally school/program specific) in the world of music and musicians. Candidates for these "non-academic degress" must audition in at a higher performing level than MM or BM candidates. For example, some of the candidates already have professional performing careers. Some are entering an institution specifically to study with a "name" teacher and want as little "distraction" from academic requirements as possible. I think it's fair to say that most musicians would recognize the Performer's Certificate or Artist's Diploma as quite presitigious - obviously, you factor in the perceived strengths of the awarding music school/conservatory as well! Certainly a BM along with some sort of non-academic "certificate degree" from a major conservatory wouldn't be looked down upon. </p>

<p>On the other hand, if a candidate is looking at a career teaching at a University, a MM and DMA may be required with some schools not realizing/recognizing the merit that a "Certificate" implies.</p>

<p>My experience is strictly within the classical world. Perhaps the Certificate route is viewed differently in jazz circles. You might want to ask other jazz specialists if they know how a Certificate from Columbia Chicago is viewed in the field. Good luck!</p>

20

<p>echoing the two previous posters, the certificate can be an option. But be aware of what fiddlestix describes in terms of nomenclature, as titles and names do vary.</p>

<p>Basically you will find what is a called a Performers Certificate, or Certificate of Performance. This is an undergrad level type of program at many institutions, with audition requirements typically equivalent with admittance standards of that institutions BM performance or composition criteria. It has in effect the same basic requirements as an undergrad BM degree, but without the liberal arts and non music academics (or academic admission requirements) as their BM program. Typically, it is a two or three year program; some allow the option of petitioning/applying into the actual BM four year degree prior to completion. Some perceive it as "technical school", but the same can be said of a BM, or a BS in any applied discipline.</p>

<p>The Artist's Diploma (AD) or Graduate Professional Diploma (GPD) is typically a masters or above level program, although not a degree. As fiddlestix indicated, entry requirements are predicated upon the institution's standards of admission to the pursuit of a masters level performance type discipline including composition and conducting. These programs can be very discipline specific and can encompass narrow focus such as period instruments, specific repertoire, orchestral, chamber, solo or alternative ensemble pursuits.</p>

<p>You will find those in the performance field with a combination of these credentials. </p>

<p>I quickly perused CCC's music department pages, and saw no reference to certificate programs. Perhaps I missed it. The exact requirements are most probably buried in the depths of the school's undergrad handbook, the operative document for all policies, procedures and degree/non degree programs.</p>

<p>As to the OP's prior comment on credit transfer, it is a common problem for all transfer students, and can be additionally disheartening for music discipline transfers, as MOST music credits do not easily transfer even among peer institutions. Be ready to have course descriptions, syllabi (I won't debate the declension as there are Latin scholars far more qualified than I ;)) , and transcripts carefully scrutinized.</p>

<p>dj, the additional info is helpful in aiding others in formulating advice and suggesting potential courses of action.</p>

<p>The beauty of this forum is the broad range of knowledge and an honest enthusiasm for helping others make sense of a difficult and confusing process. </p>

<p>I agree with virtually everything the others have said. Let me flesh out a few points.</p>

<p>You may well be below the curve of training and experience most of us and our kids have. It does seem you have done the best you can by continuing to study privately with good instructors. This is critical. Use them to help you prepare extensively for your audition requirements at your two remaining programs. Understand these requirements fully, and seek advice from the source if you don't. Playing dynamite rep for an audition will not get you in if the rep is not what was specifically asked for.</p>

<p>Do you have a local private instructor or music faculty at your former cc that can help you as you prepare? If so, please engage them if at all possible.</p>

<p>OperaDad may have missed the fact that you have an associates degree, not a bachelors. In this respect, talk of a masters can be tabled for now. A masters is a path many pursue, but the necessity, direction, specialty and questions of financing and funding may well change as you pursue your goal of a four year degree.</p>

<p>Practically speaking, your options (at least as I see them) are limited to the two remaining SUNYs as for the most part app and audition deadlines are in all probability closed for most programs. I'd suggest continuing the process and see where the chips fall. If you get into either or both, then apply yourself fully, develop a relationship with a source within the field that can serve as a mentor and begin to network and utilize as many resources as possible. </p>

<p>There are many paths to success, and not all are conventional. It's a tough row to hoe even for those at the top of their game. Don't be disheartened, but keep an open mind to both chances for failure as well as potential for success. And remember that success can often be defined by your own, rather than others' parameters.</p>