<p>MSauce, you are definitely inferring that Barnard girls are idiots. If they are not you would not be complaining about Barnard not being an equal peer of Columbia. Face it, Barnard is a sister school of Columbia whether you like it or not. The shared resources imo favoured Barnard more than Columbia. I am pretty sure Columbia got a pretty penny from Barnard for the shared resources. The only thing that I don’t like is that if Barnard girls are not as superior academically, the class discussion would not be as rigoulous and challenging if the student body are mismatched.</p>
<p>I think you’re misunderstanding my problem with it, Making<em>a</em>Point. You don’t like it that you would have people who aren’t as smart in your classes, I just don’t like it that people from a different College are going to have priority over me in getting into classes at my College, even if I’m a Sophomore and they’re a Junior. The quality comparison only enters the discussion because the trade involves both schools getting to take classes across the street–and I think Barnard got the far better deal, there.</p>
<p>“Its not at all an issue that Columbia students care about.” Well, I met 4-5 students this weekend who would probably disagree with that statement, as they care. You didn’t, and that’s fine. But that doesn’t mean nobody does, and I have met multiple people who did care.</p>
<p>I’m very sorry that Columbia’s cross-registration agreement with Barnard, made in an effort to increase the breadth of the courses offered to Columbia undergrads, does not sit well with you. Columbia is certainly not for everybody.</p>
<p>If these freshmen you spoke to have serious problems with this, they can certainly transfer. However, judging by Columbia’s 98.5% freshmen retention rate (second best among national universities), the problem with cross registration is not an issue.</p>
<p><a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-freshmen-least-most-likely-return[/url]”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-freshmen-least-most-likely-return</a></p>
<p>Unless they have changed things for the coming year, Barnard does not have any seniority system for course registration. Pre-registration begins for all Barnard students at the same day, and the deadline for course registration is the same for all. There is a system of appointment times for courses with limited enrollment – and it is possible that the assigned times are based on seniority (I really don’t know) – and incoming freshmen have a different system that effectively limits their ability to preregister for many courses, though once on campus they can access the same registration system as others. </p>
<p>I’m a Barnard parent and I have no clue as to whether the Barnard registration is ahead of, concurrent with, or later than Columbia’s. The issue never came up. My d. probably took about 40% of her classes at Columbia, but never ran into an issue related to enrollment. (As far as I know, even the small classes she had at Columbia were not full, so no one was being excluded by virtue of her taking a spot. I think the smallest class she had at Columbia was probably a foreign language section with about 8 students). The only time she ran into problems getting into popular courses with popular profs, the courses were at Barnard. She did seem to take quite a few Columbia courses that were taught by grad students or TA’s rather than full professors, so FWIW there may not be a “popular prof” problem for many introductory level courses. Most of the advanced level courses for her major were taken at Barnard – her major required two colloquia and a year long senior seminar – I have no idea whether students majoring in the same area at Columbia had similar requirements. I’d also note that Barnard students cannot enroll in Columbia core courses without special permission – so they would not be competing for spots in those classes. </p>
<p>Together, Barnard and Columbia have very extensive course offerings – a lot to choose from. It is clear from Culpa that opinions as to profs varies widely – some students intensely dislike profs who are beloved by others. So I don’t think that as a practical matter there is too much conflict or problems encountered in course enrollment. </p>
<p>I would note that advanced level courses at Barnard with limited enrollment generally are not giving the spots out on a first-come, first-serve basis. Rather there is often a decision making process that involves submitting an application to the prof; though in some cases there is a lottery (such as for psych classes). I don’t know how Columbia handles it – but my point is that being able to sign up early for a class does not necessarily mean the student will be guaranteed a spot.</p>
<p>I do think that Columbia’s core requirements place a practical restriction on Columbia students that Barnard students don’t have. A Columbia freshman has a very limited opportunity to take electives, and they have to schedule those electives around their core. The Barnard freshman has only one required course (a writing seminar), and is pretty much encouraged to take anything else they want and explore widely. But that issue would be the same for Columbia students whether Barnard was there or not – its just part of the nature of having a strict core.</p>
<p>I don’t go to Columbia, obviously, but you all are confusing the argument and being too hard on MSauce. His point was that, as a matter of principle, it’s messed up that Barnard students should get registration priority over Columbia students of the same class. Turns out that’s not true, and Barnard students just get to choose classes in the same pool as Columbia students. I don’t see what the big deal with that is, but in case MSauce is not convinced, AstroLion pointed out that the real effect of this cross-registration agreement is “to increase the breadth of the courses offered to Columbia undergrads.” Looking at it that way, it seems like a fair agreement.</p>
<p>What I don’t understand is why you guys turned this into an argument about the relative superiority/inferiority of Barnard instead of just saying to MSauce, “Yes, it’s true that a Barnard senior would get first pick of classes over a Columbia junior, but it’s worth it because in return we get access to many of Barnard’s classes. Plus, it’s highly unlikely that the cross-registration agreement will prevent you from taking your first-choice courses, anyway.” I think that’s all that needed to be said – unless of course MSauce’s true complaint is that he can’t stand the thought of being in the same room as a Barnard student.</p>
<p>For ****'s sake, MSauce, if you’re so concerned about prestige, go to Harvard or Yale. Columbia is an incredible school and widely recognized as such, but it is certainly not the most prestigious. And if you have the kind of elitist attitude that leads you to forsake Columbia because of its relationship with Barnard (or, and I’m surprised you haven’t mentioned this, GS), then why don’t you just go to Princeton? You’re right, Columbia is not a good school for you because you fail to see what it values.</p>
<p>Mustafah,
He believes Barnard students and professors are so inferior to Columbia’s that the increased breadth of classes is not worth it, since he thinks Barnard’s classes are inferior to Columbia’s. His real problem with Columbia is that it institutionally treats Barnard as an equal, and most (non-freshman) Columbians do not truly see Barnard as inferior, though they joke about it all the time. As I pointed out, if you’re so concerned about prestige that you’re willing to throw Barnard and GS under the bus, then Columbia does not share your values.</p>
<p>[I draw analogy to my prejudice toward out-of-state state schools. It bothered me that it was much more difficult and expensive for me to attend a school like UVA and that I would be there with students who were less intellectually inclined and were only admitted by virtue of being Virginian. There’s a rationale for this, of course, that state schools should serve the residents of their state first. I accepted that rationale, but also concluded that since I was not a resident of Virginia, it did not make sense to apply to UVA and subject myself t that unfair treatment. It’s not wrong per se, just not something I cared for. The same is true of MSauce; if he’s truly bothered by the idea that his classmates will be inferior because they attend a less selective school, then he should not come to Columbia.]</p>
<p>“You’re right, Columbia is not a good school for you because you fail to see what it values.”</p>
<p>I see that it values the undergraduate students of another school. The idea I got was Columbia paired up with Barnard so they could offer classes like dance and the like. Its not about prestige, and its not about not wanting to share a room with students from Barnard, its about not wanting my school to give priority to students of another school.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that there are a lot of schools that don’t have the resources or name that HYP have. Usually, to compete with them, they try to make the most of their resources for their undergrad students–for example, more personalized help getting into Grad Schools like you’ll find at a school like Williams, or etc.</p>
<p>This is the first instance I’ve seen of a school limiting their access to their campus so that other students can get into better classes. I haven’t talked to a lot of people other than the ones on this thread who perceive Barnard and Columbia to be equal as places to go to school. Clearly, the students at Barnard are getting the better end of the deal attending classes at Columbia than the other way around.</p>
<p>Columbia wanted to expand its course offerings, so instead of actually expanding its course offerings it did some sort of ridiculous exchange program? Your responses have been pretty much “If you don’t like it, go somewhere else.” Well, I’m going to have to say I don’t like it. And as I said earlier, I’m probably going to go somewhere else because of it (along with other factors too, of course).</p>
<p>I mean, I realize that’s not really saying anything beyond what you’re saying, but I feel like it would be a negative for a lot of admitted students other than me.</p>
<p>You don’t know the history of Columbia and Barnard? OK, have you heard of Radcliffe? Back when most institutions were single-sex, schools like Columbia and Harvard had sister-schools that they operated where female students went. Institutionally, Barnard was part of Columbia and Radcliffe was part of Harvard. Eventually, as more institutions went co-ed, the Ivies followed suit. Radcliffe was absorbed into Harvard and eventually all boundaries between the two dissolved. </p>
<p>In the 1970s, Columbia offered to marge with Barnard, but Barnard refused, as they wanted to continue their identity and mission as a single-sex school. Negotiations continued throughout the decade, until Columbia gave up and went co-ed in 1983. This put Barnard in an awkward position. Technically a separate school, they were still considered by most to be part of Columbia and students continued to be able to take classes at either institution and join clubs at either institution. The admissions departments are different and for most departments, the faculty are, too, but they are not as separate in practice as you may think. </p>
<p>While many idiots apply to Barnard because they see it as an easy “backdoor” into Columbia (just as many idiots apply to Harvard because they think it’s the best school out there), those who are actually admitted are those who want the benefits and mission of a single-sex school while having access to a world-class research university and a dynamic, cosmopolitan city. The majority of students are at Barnard because they want a single-sex education, not because they can’t hack it at Columbia. </p>
<p>Columbia didn’t just decide one day to allow cross-registration with another college that inexplicably started across the street; there is a huge amount of tradition and history behind their relationship. Prior to 1983, all Columbian girls went to Barnard; now only some do (and they’re not technically considered Columbians), while others go to CC/SEAS. If you want more info about the relationship between Columbia/Barnard, check out this link: [Columbia-Barnard</a> relationship](<a href=“http://www.wikicu.com/Columbia-Barnard_Relationship]Columbia-Barnard”>Columbia-Barnard relationship - WikiCU, the Columbia University wiki encyclopedia)
For specifics on the agreement between the two schools: [Columbia-Barnard</a> Intercorporate Agreement](<a href=“http://www.wikicu.com/Columbia-Barnard_Intercorporate_Agreement]Columbia-Barnard”>Columbia-Barnard Intercorporate Agreement - WikiCU, the Columbia University wiki encyclopedia)</p>
<p>I agree that this situation is unexcusable. When I visited Columbia, I saw many Barnard students on campus, they were in the gym with their card tags, etc. This really turned me off from Columbia. The schools might as well merge.</p>
<p>pigs,
I first assumed you were being sarcastic, particularly since you got a likely from Columbia and seemed so excited. But now that I see you that you’re going to Princeton, I have to ask whether you’re truly offended by the Columbia-Barnard relationship. I also have to point out the irony in suggesting the merger of two schools which were, at one time, merged and are still quite close.</p>
<p>I love Columbia but DETEST those darn barnard kiddos. From Columbia to Barnard: na na na na boo boo you couldn’t get into Columbia. loswers</p>
<p>Even if that were true, it doesn’t seem so nice to be so blatant about your elitism.</p>
<p>ooops someone lost his sarcasm detector</p>
<p>Haha, that’s a relief. But are you really going to Princeton? How will those tigers react to having a pig in their midst?</p>
<p>YIKESS. they’re gonna eat me alive. I’m scwared. But I dooo hope they’re cute and cuddly</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>What’s wrong with applying to a school because it’s perceived to be the best one out there? Doesn’t everyone want what’s best?</p>
<p>I’m sorry, I’m not related to Columbia or Barnard or Harvard, but lately the whole, “DON’T APPLY TO IVY LEAGUES JUST BECAUSE OF THE PRESTIGE” line of argument is becoming a pet peeve of mine. I don’t see ANYTHING wrong with applying to a school just for it’s name. Reputation and prestige are established for a reason. If you have the ability to get accepted but don’t know entirely what you want to do with your life, why not spend 4 years at the best institution possible to figure that out?</p>
<p>Actually, I find it rather appalling that someone who claims to somehow be smarter than students at another college wouldn’t be familiar with the structure of a university before visiting.</p>
<p>It is very common that major US universities are often comprised of multiple schools and undergraduate institutions, with differing academic goals and admission criteria. </p>
<p>Barnard is an affiliate and subsidiary of Columbia – it has its own separate administration, but its students are part of the Columbia Academic Senate, faculty tenure is determined ultimately by Columbia, etc. Many academic departments are jointly administered. </p>
<p>I don’t think this would be a surprise to anyone who had done even the most rudimentary research into the University - it certainly would be a hard fact to miss. For example, if you go to the Columbia web site and click on the very top link on the left side of the home page that says “Academic Programs”, you come to a page that states, in the first paragraph at the top of the page, “Undergraduate programs are offered by two affiliated institutions, Barnard College and Jewish Theological Seminary.” </p>
<p>Now someone with a brain, upon reading that, might think “hmm, what does ‘affiliated’ mean?” It might occur to them that shared or cross-registration generally comes with “affiliation” – and think about that before applying to the college.</p>
<p>I can see by looking at academic calendars that pre-registration at Barnard takes place substantially earlier than pre-registration at Columbia. Out of curiosity, I decided to check the JTS academic calendar – and guess what? They apparently get first crack at all the courses, since their preregistration begins and ends a full month before Columbia’s. </p>
<p>Being a pragmatist, I have to wonder if this might be something that the Columbia administration wants – that is, perhaps for planning purposes, they want to have a rough count of Barnard & JTS cross-registrants ahead of time, so that they can add extra class sections if needed to accommodate the needs of all students.</p>
<p>One complaint that I have heard (from a current senior during my preorientation trip) is that Columbia does registration by seniority, whereas Barnard classes fill up with priority given to Barnard students. However, the point is moot for reasons already stated (you can essentially get into any class by talking to the professor, etc).</p>
<p>There is a fair amount of resentment that some Columbia students feel for some Barnard women. I for one resent the fact that I don’t have the time to go into the Vag as often as Barnard students.</p>
<p>Er, other than the fact that its a slightly farther walk for you … why would you have less time to spend at the Vag than Barnard students? (At least its open for you – my d, who is graduating this year, has spent most of her college career walking around scaffolding on a campus with very few amenities, due to the construction). </p>
<p>I do think you are right that priority is given to Barnard students for Barnard classes, and that probably makes it hard for Columbia students to get into those classes – but it is also true that persistence with the prof pays off. (My d. once sat outside a prof’s office for 2 hours to press her case to get into a class – the sad thing is that once she was in the class, she didn’t really like it. But she did get in). </p>
<p>However, there is plenty of room in many Barnard classes. I’d also note that preregistration is a fair fluid affair – during the first week of classes there is a lot of movement -students dropping classes they were enrolled in, moving to different classes, etc. </p>
<p>If you want to get an idea of the landscape before you enroll, you can browse classes at [CU</a> Directory of Classes](<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/]CU”>CU Directory of Classes) – all the classes show enrollment numbers, so you can look at the current semester (Spring 2010) at classes in areas where you might be interested, and get a sense of which classes fill up. </p>
<p>There ARE certain departments or types of courses at Barnard that tend to be hard to get into, but that certainly is not universally true. So your own experience will depend a lot on what classes you are interested in taking.</p>
<p>Calmom, I hope you’re not too appalled to read this, but the idea that Columbia students are smarter than Barnard students was an idea invented by others on this thread. The point is just that Columbia is a better school than Barnard, and so the “exchange” is going to benefit the students at the lesser school–and in my opinion, the difference between the two programs is pronounced.</p>
<p>Columbia having to approve Barnard faculty means nothing. Its not about avoiding idiots teaching classes, its about having great professors. And “if you talk to a professor, you’ll get into the class.” Is that true if you are trying to get into a class that’s already available, only you want a different professor? Is that true for a Freshman?</p>
<p>“Columbia does registration by seniority, whereas Barnard classes fill up with priority given to Barnard students”</p>
<p>This was my suspicion, along with that a Sophomore at Columbia has a disadvantage in registering in Columbia classes to a Sophomore at Barnard. Let’s ignore the latter point and just focus on this quote.</p>
<p>I knew Columbia and Barnard had an exchange, obviously. I didn’t realize that next year, when I’m a Freshman, students at Barnard are going to have an advantage over me in registering for classes at my own school. But don’t worry, once I get older, I’ll be able to earn the privilege of registering for classes at my school before students at another school. And, I’ll still have a disadvantage at registering at the other school, regardless of my seniority. Is that supposed to be fair?</p>
<p>So to recap–if you think Columbia offers significantly better classes and professors than Barnard, Columbia students are getting the raw end of this exchange. If you think the classes and professors at both schools are of equal level, then the exchange is still unfair to Columbia students, as all Barnard students get first pick of their school’s classes, and then get precedent over many Columbia students in selecting classes.</p>
<p>Is this fair in any way? Everyone just keeps saying “you don’t understand the relationship!” or “Barnard students are NOT stupid.” What we’re discussing here is the fairness of the exchange. In my opinion, it gives the Columbia undergraduates the shaft in exchange for the Barnard undergraduates.</p>