How hard is brown?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Brown University
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<p>My son got As and mostly 5s in 9APs in HS, ranked in the top 2% of his class, scored 1560/1600 on his SATs and 800s on his SATIIs and took a couple classes at Columbia. He's finding his classes at Brown very challenging/difficult.</p>

<p>I attended 4 universities for undergrad/grad and saw a huge difference in teaching styles and standards. I am continually amazed at how many people (incorrectly) believe classes at school A are the same as classes at school B. After all, Intro to Chem or Writing 101 covers the same basic info, right? In many cases, these people chose the less demanding school and seem to need to justify that their school has the same standards.</p>

22

<p>Trying to offer concrete examples to back up my opinion that Brown's classes are challenging. Demanding classes can also be exciting and rewarding.</p>

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<p>Putting aside my own personal background, international students (mostly from eastern europe anyway) find science classes easier because of the curriculum we follow there, which is pretty similar in the region. In Romania at least, all science students do 4 years of physics, 4 math, 4 bio, 4 chem, 4 everything mostly (including 4 years english, 4 another language, romanian, history, geo etc) Well you get the idea, we do everything in each year. So we get to pretty advanced and detailed stuff by the end. Not mentioning the fact that we do this actually since 5th grade.
So this is why I don't really feel challenged, since I seen it all before.</p>

<p>Plus, in order for an international to get in a school like brown, he's very likely to have taken part in some national olympiads, at least. Out of about 7 romanians now at brown, 4 of us have been to an international olympiad</p>

<p>So I shouldn't actually be giving my ****ed up views in this thread :)</p>

24

<p>Not when they then support my posting in the body of their post which is attempting to dicredit my writing. Please read the actual posts more carefully and you may agree. Additionally, the defensiveness comes through in the writer's "tone" or voice. Also please note the title of this thread. Did CCers just expect praise for Brown's very liberal curriculum which was designed to encourage Brown students to take classes in subject matter areas outside of their comfort zone? That is why Brown offers pass/fail options so freely according to Brown school officials. So, naturally, to get a humanities person to take a hard science or advanced math, the courses are not as hard as at MIT, CMU, Chicago,etc. Within the context of the op's question comparing Brown to the other Ivies, Cornell is more demanding but, that being stated, Brown students are bright, self motivated students who self impose high standards for most everything that they do. Brown University is arguably the most relaxed academic atmosphere among the Ivies.</p>

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<p>"So, naturally, to get a humanities person to take a hard science or advanced math, the courses are not as hard as at MIT, CMU, Chicago,etc. Within the context of the op's question comparing Brown to the other Ivies, Cornell is more demanding"</p>

<p>I see lots of speculation.</p>

26

<p>"I have heard that Brown is what you make it. If you want to be challanged you will be, if you want to have a good time and take it easy for four years surrounded by a lot of bright, friendly people, you can." - icy</p>

<p>I don't see where anyone agreed with that.</p>

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<p>This is a thread seeking opinions. I have offered mine based on my contacts and experiences.</p>

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<p>Icy -- S/NC (yes, that's the proper term for P/F that your Brown officials neglected to tell you), does not necessarily mean easy. I took 3 classes s/nc last fall just to take the pressure off, because I was returning from medical leave. And it did just that. It took the pressure off. I still worked hard. I still got two A's and a B. That's the way (most) Brown students are, even the shakespeare buffs who take quantum physics. They are still going to do their best and work hard. They just won't have to be stressed out of their mind doing it. And you are still confusing "relaxed" with "not challenging"</p>

<p>And of course people are going to get defensive when you tell them their school isn't challenging!!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
modestmelody: You should read your own post. You support most of what I wrote. Four weeks is a long time to decide on whether or not to proceed pass/fail. Why are you so defensive and so negative? Especially when your post confirms my post which you are allegedly trying to discredit.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If you think I'm being defensive, I'm sorry, I was responding to points brought up in your post that were inaccurate. We can go through it point by point so that we both are on the same page.</p>

<p>First, you say that students can take any course pass/fail. I confirmed this in my post-- no disagreement there, though I reserved making any judgment as to whether this makes courses easier or not. More on that later.</p>

<p>Second, you posted this:

[quote]
I also have been told, but don't really believe, that a Brown student can take a course under a provisional pass/fail that grades pass/fail only if that student's grade will fall below a certain level as stipulated by the student.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This, as I posted is in correct. What you've been told, as you suspect, is inaccurate. Midterms are held after the S/NC deadline (or not given back until after that point) so that students cannot "game" the system and choose to take courses S/NC only if they do poorly on the first exam. S/NC lasts four weeks because hte first two weeks of our semester is shopping period and so students are often unsure of what courses they're taking. Assignments (HWs, problem sets, essays, etc) are often not assigned during this period so it can be difficult to judge how heavy one's workload is just based upon reading about what you're going to be doing in a class. Yes, many students use S/NC as a means to balance their schedule. That is to say, it's better to take a course outside of one's comfort zone which will be more challenging and time consuming for you as it would be for most of the rest of hte class. S/NC is one way to attempt to balance the pressure of work. Most professors suggest to never take their course S/NC as time and time again the students who take courses S/NC earn As. It's all about alleviating mental pressure, although students at Brown are the self-motivated type (it's who we attract... not cheerleading, it's a result of an open curriculum which is appealing to self-motivated students) that end up doing the work anyway. I've always said it's impossible for me to not get a B in a course with essays because if I'm going to bother writing an essay, I'm not going to hand in a complete piece of ****. I'm going to work on it until it's at least what is considered B work because I take pride in myself and my work. Unlike what you assert later, which is that the above is the same as having four weeks to make a decision, it is in fact, quite different. I cannot blow off a final and get a C or even fail leading to a C in the class which will then turn into an S versus studying hard and getting an A so it remains an A. Long before I take exams I know whether or not I can get an A or I can get an S. These are very different.</p>

<p>
[quote]
These factors combined with the create your own major/curriculum serves as the foundation of my informed opinion

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I refute this statement by noting that 3 students created their own concentrations last year. I think that's horrific and we should encourage that number to increase. You're writing that off as making course work easier demonstrates that you're not aware of the difficult process students must go through with the CCC to justify their concentration. </p>

<p>As for the notion that creating your own curriculum somehow makes course work easier (not the concentration), I attempt to refute that in the featured discussion written on the Brown forum by me. If you dont' find that satisfying, I suggest you look towards Shelia Blumstein's report in 1989 presented to President Gregorian in a time where your belief was much more widespread. There was significant misunderstanding amongst academia about how a program with an open curriculum would work when Brown first embarked on it. Much of that has long be lcleared up, but public perception is way behind the times in understanding the consequences of our curriculum. Don't believe me, look at transfer student's experiences posting right in these threads-- they have a basis of comparison that is non-existent in students coming from, "from students matriculating from the nation's most elite and academically demanding prep schools".</p>

<p>The environment here is significantly more relaxed then at other institutions, but just because there is less competition, greater collaboration, and students take joy in doing their work (because they chose to do that work) does not mean that it is somehow easier.</p>

<p>It is completely incorrect to assume that sciences are easier here because we're encouraging humanities students to take sciences. In fact, we do VERY LITTLE to actively encourage students to cross disciplines. We don't have to, Brown students choose on their own to do this. Our science programs are very well respected and have excellent placement into top graduate programs, and it's not because they're lax for so-called humanities students.</p>

<p>In fact, only about 70-75% of humanities students will take a science course while at Brown (approximately 95% of science students take both one social science and one humanities course). This is something we'd like to change and are discussing in the Task Force on Undergraduate Education, and never has the option of creating our own "Chemistry for Shakespeare" come up (not in the context typically imagined), and certainly never has the idea come up to dilute and/or weaken our introductory science courses at the expense of science students and science education come up as well.</p>

<p>So I'm not sure why you're angry with my sharing my experiences at Brown, my knowledge of how things work here (from being here and having weekly, active discussions about this on the Task Force), or the evidence put forth by transfer students who actually have a basis for comparison, but there it is, laid out.</p>

<p>This is exactly the kinds of discussions I'm looking to avoid on CC from this point forward, so hopefully others can step in a respectfully continue this discussion because I'd rather not.</p>

<p>Btw, negru, do you know Ivy? If so, I believe we may have had this conversation at my apartment once before...</p>

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<p>haha rofl, yes I know her, how weird to meet so randomly. So we know each other now</p>

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<p>It really drives me up the wall when I come on CC and people say Brown's science/math programs are easy, or that the open curriculum means it's a free ride to a diploma.</p>

<p>It simply isn't true.</p>

<p>I'm not trashing other systems, but there's comfort in a "core curriculum" that doesn't exist in an open curriculum. With an open curriculum, you are responsible for your success. You have to drive yourself. You have to be the architect of your education. In my opinion, it's easier to sit back and get a laundry list of classes, as in a core curriculum, fine tune your schedule with additional classes, and then check them off one by one. </p>

<p>Let me qualify that: Both systems are rigorous, but Brown's open curriculum poses an extremely distinct challenge that you just don't get with other schools. Both systems are also very satisfying, but you simply can't look down upon Brown's system just because it is different. </p>

<p>--</p>

<p>If you're at Brown, you're probably an extremely driven person to begin with. You are going to push yourself. Or, at the very least, you will find a way. One thing you will notice, extremely fast, is that almost everyone here is brilliant. And while the "atmosphere may be relaxed" (we aren't at each others throats with grades), it's one of intense academic rigor, by the nature and quality of the people who go here.</p>

<p>You don't have to be at a school where people know each other's GPA's or where preprofessionalism runs rampant in order to have an intense, fulfilling education. In fact, in my opinion, that sort of behavior would detract from actual learning. Brown's "atmosphere" encourages collaboration. Everyone wins. We're a community.</p>

<p>P.S. - Pass/Fail or S/NC is not abused here, for a lot of reasons that have already been discussed.</p>

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<p>Looking back, I see some of my last post is missing. In any case, I was simply trying to give an example of an academic kid who is sufficiently challenged at Brown. That doesn't mean he's having trouble, just finding the work demanding/interesting - something he was looking forward to. He's able to compare Brown to a state school, his AP classes and a couple HS classes at Columbia. His Brown professors demand more than he's used to. </p>

<p>I thought the original OP was trying to judge how difficult the level of work is at Brown - in relation to other schools (not just Ivies). I thought the transfers' posts were helpful in that regard. I tried (but some sentences were left out) to explain how classmates from his tougher AP classes (Calc BC, Physics C, etc) who went to Ivy/top schools are finding the workload intense. The kids who went to lower tier schools are saying that the expectations are similar to HS - hence my comment that not all schools teach the same material in the same way. </p>

<p>I was just trying to give some info to the OP so he can make an informed decision. Some kids prefer to be the big fish and may prefer a less demanding undergrad environment. I suggest coming to Brown (and other schools) to sit in on classes & perhaps talk with students after they know how rigorous their classes truly are. I'm sure there are professors "easier" than others at Brown, as there are at all schools. I suspect that Brown students don't choose their classes based on that criteria, though.</p>

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<p>Icy, </p>

<p>How did I misunderstand your post? You said that Brown was more relaxed, but you definitely insinuated that was either bad or less rigorous. </p>

<p>You are also confusing people's poor reading comprehension with you being wrong. </p>

<p>And you don't have an "informed opinion"... you don't go here, or to many (if any) of the other schools you have mentioned.</p>

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<p>Icy,
You imply that S/NC classes mean "easy." 1st semester freshman receive S/NC (or some form of pass/fail) at Johns Hopkins and Swarthmore, yet I can't imagine you consider those schools "easy."</p>

35

<p>Oh yes...question from physics 47:
"Oh I'm sorry, I just don't get this whole electrical resistance thing (after 1 hour of all the possible explanations and proofs and formulas known to man about it)..could you tell me what it actually is, like at 6th grade level?"
I barely helped myself from saying "it's *<strong><em>ing college not 6th grade, go to the *</em></strong>ing retard section or something" and walking out. Unfortunately I had to talk to the prof after about some other class, so I had to be nice. Nevertheless the professor found it to be an excellent question, so there we go losing another 10 minutes for every dumbass in the class. Science at Brown for you.</p>

<p>I fail to see the "freedom" of choosing courses, when you need signatures from deans and teachers in order to take a stupid 8th grade level course. They all expect you to be just as stupid as everyone else, and to just take the easiest courses. Word of advice, if you feel that you want to do more than "expected" don't ever listen to advisors or teachers. The advisor won't like you taking harder courses, cause you may get bad grades, and then he takes the blame, and the profs usually have no idea besides what they do in their course. I actually had to lie to both a professor and my advisor in order to take phys 153. "Oh noes, but you didn't take any quantum physics yet, how could you possibly understand anything?"...I can read a stupid book about quantum physics by myself and learn it, thank you! "Wow, you already know what maxwell's equations are, and you're just a freshman, unbelievable..you should still take the course tho"..noob</p>

<p>Right now I'm feeling like I'm wasting a whole year with physics 7 and 47, because they actually convinced me that the courses are really really difficult, and there aren't many options until next fall. Hopefully next year I'll be done with all the undergrad level physics, because I for one am really sick of hearing all the stupid questions in class. For god's sake, if you're the only one having trouble understanding what resistance is when it's staring you in the face, it's not our fault mother nature was less good to you, and just go study the damn thing by yourself, that's what the millions of books in the scili are for.</p>

<p>Why can't they just put on a stupid website a detailed syllabus of each course, so we know exactly what we're choosing? I can't go shopping every course every day to see what it's actually about, and like I said, the advisors are really useless.</p>

<p>Anyway, another thing to consider is that when professors change, the course will change. This year for example there is someone else teaching physics 153, and he's really doing it at grad level. The best part is he doesn't really care about students who don't understand what he's doing. And he doesn't have a problem session where he just simply gives out the answers for the homework. And he has open book exams, because no book will help you solve his problems. Thank god for the only sane course. No, wait, actually the best part is that this is a required course for physics. Good luck physics major noobs, who have trouble understanding why the derivative of ln x is in 1/x, when we'll start doing complex contour integrals. This course is actually the only thing I look forward to all week. Besides the drinking in the weekend. And the day they bring mayo back to jo's.</p>

<p>So ya I'm not happy with the physics courses. Neither are my friends who are in math or cs. Math and CS are actually taught better, but the sheer sight of dumbness and approval of it makes you lose neurons. Yes I'm an elitist when it comes to this and I'm not hiding it.</p>

<p>So, fine, they can have all the easy classes they want, but ffs let us REALLY choose for ourselves what we want. If actually encouraging us to challenge ourselves seems to be so completely out of the question.
And offer some options, this is supposed to be a leading university. General relativity offered only once every two years?
Almost all the grad physics and advanced math courses overlapping? Thanks a lot.
"Why yes, here at brown you have the freedom of choosing everything from A to Z. Unfortunately, this year a lot of profs are on vacation, so we can only offer A to P. Also, we only offer a few only once per two years, so there you go, A to J. You obviously know however that this is fall semester, so we actually only have half of those, so A to G. Oh, wait, some of them overlap unfortunately, sorry, there was no possible way to overcome this, but, you still have A, C, D, F, see, lots of choices. Oh wait, B is a prereq for C, and C is for D, and you need math K to take F. So, here go, I'll just sign you up for A over here, yup, hope you're happy with your choices, and enjoy!" great</p>

<p>Only if, of course, you're hardcore like us :). Otherwise..it's great..just sharing my views since other people deep in sciences may find interest in what I'm saying.</p>

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<p>FWIW:

[quote]

Why can't they just put on a stupid website a detailed syllabus of each course, so we know exactly what we're choosing? I can't go shopping every course every day to see what it's actually about, and like I said, the advisors are really useless.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That is likely to be a recommendation of the task force.</p>

<p>Also, while I sympathize with your situation, I know from many people that Physics 7 and 47 are considered incredibly difficult, but realize that most students who are taking that class have had one year (really a college semester's) worth of physics and one or two American college semesters worth of math. You're coming from a background with as much as 4-6 semesters of both, and unfortunately, it appears the physics department has no idea what kind of system you're coming from.</p>

<p>I can say that the chem department is much better about these things, as is the math department (actually math is best about this), not sure on CS or some others.</p>

<p>Negru's case, while ****ty for him is far from typical as most students have not had nearly the exposure he's had. What I can say is that in math, econ, chemistry, and biology, signing up for grad courses doesn't require anything other than plugging the number into Banner, so it is pretty easy to do that. Unfortunately, as a freshman, you do need adviser approval, but by next semester you should be able to "lay down the law" about this sort of thing and sign up for what you want without too much difficulty.</p>

<p>I'd start contacting professors about doing research as that will certainly help with your frustrations.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I know from many people that Physics 7 and 47 are considered incredibly difficult, but realize that most students who are taking that class have had one year (really a college semester's) worth of physics and one or two American college semesters worth of math.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I do realize that, but for god's sake, with some decency. When I have trouble understanding something, I know it's solely my fault, and my own stupidness, so I just go and study the thing. Lectures aren't there for answering noob questions. That's what books, private tutors, and office hours are for.
If the course is too hard for you, you should fail it miserably, that's the way it should work. Simple as that. You are supposed to raise to its level, not expect it to be lowered at yours. ...6th grade level...i'm still trying to recover..</p>

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<p>In some sense I agree. I personally view education as more of a team process where lectures are supposed to interact and engage students, and students should ask whatever they want. HOWEVER, the professor has a responsibility to know how to properly filter some questions-- some are engaging and worth discussing in greater length, some need to be deferred either to, "I'm sorry, but that question is too basic/too hard to answer right now with a class waiting on me to teach, perhaps you'd like to talk about it after class or at office hours."</p>

<p>I agree students should have hte good sense to know the difference, but when someone doesn't, I don't mind a professor telling them that it's not an appropriate question. An effective technique can simply be asking, "How many don't understand that concept still?" if it's something basic, and then going forward with what the class needs.</p>

<p>So basically, I'd say that's more a function of poor teaching or lack of experience teaching. One of the hardest things a good professor learns is how to determine what level of understanding the class versus what level you're teaching at.</p>

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<p>Sorry Negru, that you are having such a horrible time academically at Brown. Maybe MIT would have been a better place for you. On every college campus there are students who are unhappy, for a wide range of reasons. College is an individual experience for everyone. </p>

<p>My daughter, who went to a small rural high school, is finding the work to be very challenging. We expected that. She's not a science person, and is taking humanities and social science courses. She's definitely weighted down under the reading load. Her friends at other non-Ivy schools are not working as hard as she is.</p>

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<p>Is there a lot of grade inflation at brown that ivy league school are notorious for?</p>