For my daughter, fit was important because she spent 4 years at a high school that was a very poor fit academically and socially. Here’s why:
Academics: Her HS offered rigorous classes BUT the school prided itself on the percentage of students enrolled (not necessarily succeeding) in these classes, so students were encouraged to take them regardless of aptitude. The result was that many of the kids in these classes were slackers who didn’t give a hoot about learning, slept in class and found ways to cheat on tests.
Socially: School was the typical suburban HS. Athletes were revered and scholars and artists often overlooked or given token recognition. Lots of overprivileged white kids with permissive, overindulgent parents.
So my daughter sought out the following when choosing a college:
Engaged learners: She sat in on classes when she could during visits and paid attention to this. She also chose to apply to schools where the class sizes were very small and discussion-based.
Socially diverse: She looked for schools that seemed to have different “types” of kids. Artsy kids, nerdy kids, quirky kids, none-of-the-above kids, and yes, even some “jock” types. Turned out the kid who looks the most like a football player (and is one) is also in choir and can sing opera. It’s awesome.
It’s not always easy to tell these things during the visit, but you can get a reasonable idea if you pay careful attention and do more than just a tour. After all, you’re going to be living and working in socializing in this place for four years unless you work mee it’s not always easy to tell these things during the visit, but you can get a reasonable idea if you pay careful attention and do more than just a tour. After all, you’re going to be living, learning, and socializing in this place for four years!
“School was the typical suburban HS. Athletes were revered and scholars and artists often overlooked or given token recognition. Lots of overprivileged white kids with permissive, overindulgent parents.”
There are many students who engage in sports as a healthy addition to their school experience. Many are scholars and hard working. And ethnicity has nothing to do with this as well.
I think parents who think any university or lac in the top 100 doesn’t have engaged learners in all of these schools is mistaken. Try a few engineering classes at the state u and get back to us.
Actually the Fiske guide for best value 2019 came out today. Here’s that it says about university of Iowa.
“Description: “With the lowest tuition and fees in the Big Ten, this leading public university is a bargain for athletes, artists and academic stars alike.”
Not a school we hear much about on cc. But Fiske considers it a leading public institution. How about that for food for thought.
This is an example of what I (and S, more importantly) feel is meant by FIT. S was admitted to several high quality schools (After using FIT as a litmus test to determine where he would apply). Then, he narrowed it down to 2 schools, William & Mary and Wake Forest (I use their names only because it’s important to visualize FIT). We had spent time at both.
He is very in to sports, school spirit, attending games, and all that stuff. Academically, they are peer schools and both their business schools are excellent (his major of choice is finance). They both have a rep for working their kids pretty hard (which has proven to be the case!) W & M is a more laid back (socially) , artsy environment. The student body is not a huge supporter of football and basketball games (and other sports). It’s not a priority. A little “earthy crunchy” so to speak. Although he would have done just fine, made tons of friends, etc at W &M, he loves the "Work Hard/ Play Hard atmosphere at Wake Forest. It’s a better fit for him. Not a crazy party kid but likes to partake. Loves following the teams, He would describe the students as very intelligent and social (more of the really active leaders form HS - sports captains, class Pres, etc.) vs. what he perceived to be quiet / intellectuals at W&M. Both equally smart, just go about their lives differently. Money was fairly similar at both (within a few thousand per yr) so he chose Wake based on FIT.
His narrowing choices were based on his application pool which was determined by a broader range of fit (location, size, etc.) SO when it came to selection, it was among a list of peer schools, not massive state U and small LAC.
“At least in some engineering fields the vast majority of engineers don’t need a PhD. They can work straight from college and that’s often their desire.”
That was my experience. I’m a mathematician but I got my PhD grant from the engineering department because it was much less competitive than the math department, and my topic would have fitted into either dept. The top engineers mostly wanted to get a job rather than do a PhD. Completely opposite situation for the top mathematicians.
@OHMomof2 - If the person you described spent 4 years studying physics and then got an undergraduate and master’s degree in engineering after 6 years (2 years for both), how could he have completed all the undergraduate general and discipline specific engineering courses and design work in only one year (assuming the master’s was another year after that)? In my school for example design courses are required each semester - a total of 8 and all ABET accredited undergraduate programs require a full year capstone design project, in fact, in the catalog under Transfer Information it states objectively that transfer students will require three years to complete the engineering degree unless the student takes extra courses during the summer and intersessions. It is hard to believe one can complete an undergraduate engineering program having transferred from a non-engineering program in only a year. I would question the depth and breadth of an engineering program that can be completed in only a year without having at least some of the engineering courses in the “3” (in his case, the “4”) school of a “3-2” program.
It also means that, for visits to have value, the student needs to have an idea of what to look for (as your daughter apparently did), rather than going in and possibly being influenced by superficial appearances or good/bad marketing by the college.
We went to a local presentation with five LACs represented - Bowdoin, Vassar, Davidson, Carleton and I cannot remember the other. Anyway, one of the schools offered a 3-2 engineering option but they were quick to say that hardly anyone takes that option. Kids don’t like to leave school after three years. It’s just not the right plan for most kids who want to be engineers.
@homerdog - Then the lesson to be learned here is don’t go to an LAC if you’re interested in engineering, unless you do a 3-2 program (you won’t be an engineer going to an LAC unless the 3-2 is an option, so it’s a moot point anyway).
@OHMomof2 - That’s ok, you don’t have to identify the schools. Just making a comment.
Can your parents take you to local schools that are similar to schools you are interested in? E.g., A big state school or a liberal arts college
Can you tag along with your friend’s families if they go visit a school?
Can you visit once you get admitted
Read the Fiske Guide (check it out from your library) and see what it has to say about the students/school
My youngest daughter did a tour of our Big StateU which involves getting on a bus to go between campuses just like you would have to do as a student. She immediately hated it. She also doesn’t like cities. She also doesn’t want to be the smartest kid at the school, nor struggle too much. She found a smaller (5000 undergrads) college in the suburbs.
My eldest loved big state schools where she could be more anonymous (after having gone to a HS with a class of 25). She was happy with cities or anything. She was very open on “fit” and selected her college based on value and IB credts given.
I think some underestimate how many students go to schools outside (well outside) the Top 100. I suspect it’s a majority of students. It is for my local public high school (that is heavily Caucasian simply due to who lives in our district and definitely reveres athletes more than academic top students - not even a close comparison - for those who are top in sports and academics, sports are the more important component).
It’s super common for top academic students I come into contact with to visit a good school and come home eager to head off and join their tribe. Whether that’s at a Big State U, Medium Sized U, or LAC is where other aspects of fit come into play.
@ucbalumnus “Fit” does NOT mean “how desirable the student is to the college.” That is not at all what colleges mean when they say “fit.” Reread what I said and/or read what @rosered55 said. That is what “fit” is talking about.
@momofsenior1 Did you look at how that list was compiled? Lol. That explains the difference. My list was from the data compiled by the NSF. The list you linked does not exactly have the same credentials, eh?
Finding the right fit is very important. However, a luxury for many that probably just go to the local college like you stated. If undecided on major with no size or location preferences, then find any other variables that may be important to you, research them starting in your local area, then tour some. Of course discuss cost with your parents, and what ultimately will make you happy in your college experience. You don’t sound picky and I’m sure will have a great experience whatever you end up choosing.
