With both of my girls I knew they couldn’t visit every school they might want to apply to so we just made sure to visit a wide variety of schools and based upon what they responded to came up with the list of what was important to them and what they couldn’t put up with. Their lists had very different criteria and it really helped to have started from scratch.
In addition to her major one D’s list was:
Larger than 2000 undergrads.
Strong Engineering program
Grad school smaller than undergrad school.
Strong/active school spirit
Traditional Campus
Not in TX, CA or the South
Must snow
The other’s was:
In a City
Large
Strong balance of arts and academics
Heavily diverse
Not in TX, CA or the Deep South
The thing is - none of those criteria relate to prestige, exclusiveness or cost! We could (and did) determine safety schools, match and reach schools, schools with strong FA and schools with no FA all matching the same criteria. We were able to develop good balanced lists for both kids with only schools that met their “fit” requirements so the kids could honestly say “I only applied to schools I really like and want to go to”. That to me is the great thing about fit - if you only apply to schools that fit you and what you really want, you will end up happy wherever you “get in”.
Not every school has every major, and many LACs don’t have a lot of majors (business, nursing, education, engineering). I think when people are discussing ‘fit’ they are talking about Greek life, parties, weather, beach or mountains, size, distance from home.
If a student can come up with 5 or so schools he can afford, the tie breaker becomes fit. Should I go to Bates or UMass? Should I take the money at UAlabama or be full pay at Middlebury?
If money hadn’t been an issue, I think both my kids would have picked very different schools (both wanted to go to school in California). Alas, money was an issue and it limited the schools down to 20 schools each could even look at. One eliminated all the LACs as she hated them. She like STEM schools. The other found one school she likes and that we could afford, and stuck with that.
The majority of college students go to a school near their house. It doesn’t matter if they want beautiful buildings or climbing walls or a teeny tiny specific major. Only on CC can they play Goldilock and decide this school is too hot and that one too cold, that one has singles available and another forced triples. Most student just don’t get to be picky.
You could think of “fit” for a college like you think about the fit of clothing or the fit of a job or the fit of a relationship partner. Do you think you’ll feel comfortable there? Can you be yourself? The most expensive outfit, the most prestigious workplace, the most well-known or wealthiest partner is not necessarily right for you. Same with a college or university.
@BB One can tell you work in a private high school and only with elite admissions. Others of us work in average public high schools.
There really is nothing in your post that I agree with or that fits students where I work whether they have a 1500+ or 1000 SAT, though I suspect what you write works for your students. Here kids/parents look at whether a school has what they want to study (even if they change their mind later), how finances are likely to work out, distance from home, and other “typical” fit issues mentioned often by many - just not in your posts.
Funny thing is… with a good fit, they end up quite happy and successful. With a bad fit, they often don’t. There’s no single “right” school for most, but there can be several that are wrong.
I understand that is how many (maybe even most) people decide on a school.
But, still… those things are not what colleges are referencing when they talk about “fit.”. I didn’t make up what “fit” is; I am using the colleges’ working “definition.”
On another note, at my school, we also have a lot of kids who go to state schools and to community college. Both wealthy kids and not-so-wealthy ones.
We are a private school in an urban setting. We have some wealthy families. But… we also have a robust scholarship program. Around 80% of our students receive aid to attend the school. We have close to 60% on free/reduced lunch. About 20% are “first generation” college applicants. The school has made a commitment to serving a diverse student body and we don’t want their financial circumstances to constrain their opportunities. So, we support them as fully as we can… including helping them to elite colleges, if that is suitable and desired by the student. But, because they are lower-tier, it is even more critical that they understand “fit,” so that they can find their fit, and convey that fit in their application… because many of them have EFC of 0 and will need money covering their full COA.
About 60% of the applicants I mentor end up with full rides at one or more schools to which they have applied and been accepted (which matches our demographic pretty closely)
I guess my message is:
What I am saying is applicable to everybody. It doesn’t have to be used by everybody, but… It could be. When it is, it pays off.
I think the problem is people largely misunderstand education in general, and higher education, and its
admission process, as a specific part of that.
It’s ok. No one has to use “fit” as part of their college applications. No one has to apply to elite colleges or really to any LACs, at all. But, rich or poor, the kids who understand what I am saying about “fit” and go through the process to find schools that are a good fit for them, and can convey that in their applications, clearly benefit from doing so.
And the OP was asking specifically about “fit” and seemed to be using it as the colleges use it. So, I was answering her in that vein.
If you look at the list, you will notice that a majority are LACs. And LACs also dominate the top percentiles for med school and law school placements.
Still, if your daughter didn’t like the LACs then she definitely should not have chosen one, their STEM dominance, notwithstanding.
The whole STEM thing and Liberal Arts not going together really is a very common misperception. Similar to the misperception that LACs don’t offer enough majors. (A good LAC actually will generally offer each student far more flexible options for majors than a large University can offer an individual student.)
But, one has to take the time and do the research to understand the process for it. And if you don’t care, then that definitely would be a waste of your time.
But don’t discourage a kid who does care from pursuing that for herself, just because you don’t know or care about it and didnt choose to pursue it.
Most LACs do not have the E part of STEM (the T part is not that common generally). In terms of flexibility, LACs are also less likely to offer many of the majors that are oversubscribed at big universities (e.g. the E part of STEM, business, nursing). So changing major generally may be easier, but a student who wants one of those majors would not want a school where it does not even exist. At big universities where some majors are oversubscribed, it is less likely that liberal arts majors are oversubscribed.
@ucbalumnus Did you look at the list. The NSF specifically listed “engineering” – those are the top schools producing students to successfully complete “Engineering and Science” PhDs. And the majority are LACs. In my experience, many LACs offer a cooperative Engineering program. I have no stats on how many overall, because I don’t work with that many of those kids, but I had one this year. And he is doing a 3+2 dual degree program that is a partnership between Earlham College and Columbia Unoversity. He will spend the first three years at Earlham College and the last two years at Columbia and will receive both a degree from both schools. I have also had a student do 3-2s starting at Wheaton, with the Masters coming from Case Western, and know of others who do the dual degree with the Masters coming from Rensselear Polytech and Dartmouth. I don’t get so many of those kids, and not liking to stereotype, but it has occurred to me that it is possible that the kids who are interested in Engineering might be more linear in their thinkong and, perhaps, less apt find a good LAC “fit.” But, regardless of my speculations or your perceptions, the NSF tracks the data. And… according to the National Science Foundation, of the top schools in the nation for producing successful Science and Engineering students, LACs comprise a majority.
That list only shows PhDs for science and engineering. At least in some engineering fields the vast majority of engineers don’t need a PhD. They can work straight from college and that’s often their desire. (Says the lady whose H is a Civil Engineer, owning his own firm for the past 19 years and having done jobs on most continents - no one he’s worked with has had or needed a PhD. Those we know who are hired usually come directly from Penn St or Va Tech. When we lived in FL it was FL or GA state schools. LAC backgrounds for Civil Engineering - if there are any/many - are rather dissed in his field of work.)
Two of my three lads chose LACs for their college experiences (with no regrets). When I asked them why some of their peers left, the #1 reason was “they wanted a different major and it’s not offered here.”
My research U lad also has no regrets and didn’t care for LACs. He found the correct fit for him - which - incidentally, is a school on that list, though that lad went pre-med and had absolutely no interest in engineering. (None of my followed H’s footsteps.)
Neither of my LAC lads would have liked (or been able to handle) middle son’s school. They’re all quite intelligent, but there’s a difference in intensity at their choices. My lads have sat in on classes and discussed things among themselves.
For us - and them - fit is important.
Then too, regarding the list - 28/50 is technically a majority, but it’s hardly a high majority. To me, it’s meaningless. It all depends upon what the student wants in their college experience. At our average public high school, most students won’t get into many of those college anyway, so it’s really pointless. Those average kids still end up with terrific successful lives if they put the work in where they go.
YMMV
Otherwise, @BB It’s possible we’re sort of saying the same thing after reading more about your school. You mainly consider major and finances “pre-fit” and I certainly see them as “fit” (why X college may not be your best choice). We have plenty of first gen students and with proper guidance, those who do well can get nice packages. Others end up in local state schools (not often a good buy in PA for top students) or cc. To get good packages one usually has to do a bit of homework and consider MANY fit aspects for the student. Since many colleges like to have first gen and/or high stats, I suppose one can also look at it from the college POV, but I prefer to look at it from the student POV. The best “money” is not always the best “college” for many students if they can afford something toward their education. It all depends upon the student. The college will go on with/without the student. It’s the student’s life that is affected by their choice.
@BB - If one wants to be an engineer, the student has to make that decision either upon entering the school or shortly thereafter. As other posts have described, the ABET requirements for an undergraduate engineering degree mandate a specific course sequence and many prerequisites. One cannot start as a liberal arts student or “undeclared” and transfer into engineering later and still graduate in four years. One is not really an engineer without an undergraduate ABET accredited engineering degree. If the student is interested in 3-2 programs he/she needs to choose one that provides an undergraduate engineering degree (that is, BS, BSE, or BE). Most LACs do not themselves have engineering or grant undergraduate engineering degrees of their own (a few do). Some 3-2 programs may provide a master’s degree in engineering but not an undergraduate degree. A master’s in engineering is not a substitute for a bachelor’s degree in engineering. Most employers, government agencies, and state engineering licensing boards require the ABET accredited undergraduate degree.
I’m a huge believer in fit, since I spent my freshman year at a school that wasn’t a fit because it was too big and impersonal. That said, there will probably be lots of schools that are fits for each individual, so there’s no need to spend a huge amount of time finding a perfect fit.
That would be my advice also, and that of some others who post regularly. Major switching is a lot easier at good LACs, and no one is expected to chose one in the first year and a half anyway.
However, engineering and nursing not being available at most LACs (obviously not all, hello Smith, Mudd, etc) is an issue if one knows that career is the goal as a HS senior.
@Engineer80 I know someone who planned a 3/2 engineering arrangement but loved his “3” school so did all 4 there as a Physics major and is now completing a dual BS in engineering and MS in his eng specialty (Aerospace). He’ll have all 3 degrees in 6 years which isn’t too much longer than he’d have gotten just the undergrad engineering degree (or the same time, at some schools). But he knew he wanted eng all along - the LAC offer was too good to turn down (it was free). And it offered a “pre-engineering” program.
My daughter did want the E in STEM, and didn’t find the LACs she looked at, that tried to sell her on a 3+2 program, attractive in any way. One we looked at had only 5 physics professors and not that many math professors - for the entire college. I think in the entire history of the program only 5 students had gone on to the ‘2’ school, and of course the financial aid would have had to be renegotiated for those last 2 years, making some of the schools they had an agreement with (GaTech, Clemson) unaffordable to us since she would have been an OOS student. Paying for 5 years of college rather than 4 was not attractive to me. She didn’t like the LACs that did offer engineering either. Neither of us liked Smith at all, and the more LACs she looked at, the less she liked them.
We’ll just have to disagree, @BB, that LACs offer enough for everyone at an affordable price.
One thing I really wanted for my kids was to spend 4 years at one college. It was important to me because I’d changed colleges twice, and because they’d attended 3 high schools. If they’d had to change colleges, fine, we would have dealt with it but I really wanted them to have the ONE college/university experience. We didn’t want to plan an interruption for a 3+2 program.
Let us know if those kids of yours complete engineering at Columbia. It is far more rare than you think for the 3+2 to work.
Very few students intending 3+2 actually do transfer to the “2” school.[1] The various possible reasons:
Not admitted to the "2" school. For example, Columbia requires a 3.3 technical and 3.5 overall GPA to transfer.[2]
Not enough financial aid at the "2" school, and/or uncertainty about financial aid until later. For example, Columbia does *not* promise to meet full need for 3+2 transfers like it does for frosh and regular transfers.[2]
Extra year of costs, regardless of financial aid.
Less experience with engineering courses and extracurriculars while at the "3" school, possibly causing loss of interest.
"Fit" factors that many students choose the "3" LACs for are the opposite of those found at "2" schools.
Student does not want to transfer away from the "3" school that s/he likes and the friends there.
The student point of view of “fit” (how desirable the college is to the student) is what most discussions about “fit” around here tend to concentrate on. The college point of view of “fit” (how desirable the student is to the college) that @BB focuses on is usually a topic in discussions about college admissions at highly selective colleges (or sometimes about highly selective competitive scholarships).
The difference between these two notions of “fit” can be seen in my own example when I was in high school decades ago. Apparently, my PSAT or SAT scores were high enough to attract mail from various colleges that I had never heard of then, many small LACs from distant places. They apparently considered me to be a potentially desirable “fit” for them, both for the scores and demographic desirability. But most of them were poor “fit” from my point of view, since they did not have the majors that I was interested in.
That's not the same kind of list as that from the NSF; the metrics for its construction are entirely different. Importantly, in the USNWR list, "The programs below are schools whose highest engineering degree offered is a doctorate." This criterion naturally precludes LACs from appearing.
That was my point @inforapound - that different ranking lists have different metrics. You can find data to support any position on the LAC vs public debate. Students need to find environments that fit them best, including financially.
A lot of those 3-2 programs almost seem designed to fail due to bad fit… the engineering school is often far away and/or in a completely different kind of area. It is not surprising that few students who are drawn to a college in a small town in the Midwest want to suddenly move to New York City.
It’s not just majors that can make for a poor fit for the student. College A might offer a full ride as the student can really fill one of its needs (esp with high stats), but there truly is a difference among colleges (not necessarily related to any particular ranking - esp across all majors). I’ve seen top students go to “much lower than their caliber” schools and be very disappointed in the journey even if they end up successful (in life) afterward (getting into med school or getting a job, etc). They are wistful for what could have been - not meaning the “name.” It’s usually due to research opportunities or similar level of thinking students, etc. There are no do-overs. They’ve missed out on what could have been.
When one literally doesn’t have the $$ for a better choice, that’s one thing. When one does, it’s worth it to think about the options according to fit for the student. A student who can get a free ride at places can often get decent merit aid or need based aid elsewhere too. It’s not always a choice of free ride vs full pay and the typical "is it worth 250K argument). Sometimes (many times) the difference is closer to 10-25K, or, the price of a car.
I should note the wistfulness is also there when one goes heavily into debt for an education and realizes later that it wasn’t worth it. Once again, no do-overs. Finances simply ARE part of “fit” for most students. It’s best to look for the best affordable options and that can take some hunting.
With a bad fit, they often don’t. There’s no single “right” school for most, but there can be several that are wrong.
And LACs also dominate the top percentiles for med school and law school placements.