how is an Ivy-par education ever worth two decades' worth of debt?

College Search & Selection
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<p>If it’s called “middle class”, then surely most people fit that category, right? Hopefully it’s mean or median.</p>

<p>So, for that class, which is most of us, the numbers just don’t seem to match up with what I see. So often I see “Ivies give top aid now”. But that’s just not how the math works for this category of family/student.</p>

<p>Let’s say one is Ivy competitive. That puts them dead on for probably a free ride at many schools, including those lower tiers that buy academic potention, and the mid tiers such as their in-state flagship university. States want to retain their talent, so they offer merit aid.</p>

<p>So, option 1 is a decent (?) school at little to no cost because the aid is based not on need, but on merit.</p>

<p>Conversely, if one has a decent income, of course those need-based colleges expect full payment or close to it. So now we’re comparing a public instate education at $0.00, to a private elite college at $60,000 a year. That’s OUR situation, and I doubt we can be alone. If we get any aid at all, it won’t be much. </p>

<p>For out decision, while we CAN pay that if it were to become the only option…it’s just not a smart investment. There are very few jobs one could get on an undergrad degree that wouldn’t require a lifetime to repay a quarter of a million dollar debt. </p>

<p>So this is the extreme, of course. When we’re talking, as an earlier poster said, of $40,000 in debt at graduation…that WOULD probably be a very wise investment. I recently heard some data, but I can’t be exact. They spoke of the median income of the average Harvard grad, as compared to 2-3 of our instate schools. Of course just one year’s salary made up that $40,000! Keep in mind though, that’s GROSS, and…much more importantly…if one gets a job in Boston or NYC, versus Podunkville, USA…the cost of living is MUCH different and therefore higher salary is a “given”. </p>

<p>So zero versus $240,000 is a no brainer. It’s all the “in between” that makes it tough. We each have our own line that we won’t cross. For me, I am single and I have to consider my own future earning power (in jeopardy, right now, at my age and in this economy), the things I also need to pay: I have only just recently started making a decent salary so I have no savings, no retirement, nothing to leave my child, help her when she needs an extra $100 to make rent, I have to pay my own insurance, double taxed (self employed), there might be a wedding, etc etc etc. So…it seems silly to spend THAT much more, when there is a DECENT education for free. Again…that imaginary cut-off line comes into play when one says things like Community College as an option. THAT is a line we wouldn’t cross.</p>

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<p>The data that I presented is taken from USNWR online. They get it from the Common Data Sets reported by the colleges. Specifically, the number presented comes from Section H: Financial Aid, Item H5. </p>

<p>The comment above about loans from parents is correct. That is NOT included in this data. Here is what the CDS says should be included: </p>

<p>" students who borrowed at any time through federal loan programs–Federal Perkins, Federal Stafford Subsidized and Unsubsidized. Include both Federal Direct Student Loans and Federal Family Education Loans. NOTE: exclude all institutional, state, private, alternative loans and parent loans."</p>

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Exactly, and the most recent data is for the class of 2009. As I said before, it’s outdated. </p>

<p>You’d have to wait for the class of 2011 or 2012 to fully see all of the new financial aid changes.</p>

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<p>The data is very outdated and incomplete. How likely are parents going to have to go for outside funds?</p>

<p>Does the cost of the school matter for families using private loans?
What about the wealth of the student body?
What about personal situations… like the one mentioned by R124687?</p>

<p>I guess if you realize the numbers are old by the time you see them and you take that into account…you can use them as a guide. I like looking at the numbers. But, I think a person’s own situation trumps those numbers. If you need loans… you are going to have to look at schools in more depth. Those numbers from USNWR have a good chance of being irrelevant.</p>

<p>And now with the financial crisis… All bets are off.</p>

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<p>I think you’re confusing “debt” with the student’s “expected contribution”. You wouldn’t ordinarily graduate owing the university work-study hours. </p>

<p>But, these latest posts just point up something very screwed up about this thread; the OP is writing in April, presumably around the time when FA packets get sent out and yet, we never hear what exactly his award was.</p>

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<p>Hawkette said

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<p>I think this relates exclusively to U.S students. if you are an international student you can graduate with huge debt from the ivies, depending on aid given to foreign students which is generally very small and then you have to factor in tuition costs for foreign students.</p>

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<p>You can, but you aren’t likely to do so.</p>

<p>At Amherst, an “Ivy-par” institution which practices a need-blind admission policy toward applicants from outside the United States, 86 percent of international students admitted to the class of 2012 receive financial aid, and the average annual aid package for a needy international student is about $10,000 higher than the average for a U.S. student receiving aid.</p>

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<p>I wouldn’t consider Amherst an ivy equivalent it’s a liberal arts college not a “university” in the category of HYPCCDPB, in terms of mission, endowment( though Amherst’s is quite large in this area), research intensity, professional programs etc, international reputation. I would say the ivy equals would be in no particular order: Rice, Northwestern, Duke, Chicago, Stanford, Caltech, MIT, Berkeley, Georgetown. There’s probably a few I am forgetting at the moment.</p>

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<p>^If you include Rice, Georgetown, Berekeley, Northwestern, you really should include Vandy, Emory, JHU etc.</p>

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<p>^ You are correct on a couple of these, as I said, some are missing from my list the most obvious being John Hopkins.</p>

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<p>Whether you consider Amherst and the other liberal arts colleges “equivalent” to the universities in whatever metrics does not concern me.</p>

<p>I was merely disputing your incorrect generalization, that international students receive “very small” amounts of aid from elite institutions. I offered Amherst as an example of one such institution that is exceedingly generous to a significant majority of its international students.</p>

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<p>It’s not an incorrect generalization. Many elite schools do not offer very limited for international students, myself included and I graduated with a higher debt than my American friends as a result. I had tens of thousands in debt. I also didn’t mention that I thought it was a concern to you, you were the one who brought Amherst into into the picture. And I had friends who also left American elite colleges with higher debt than their American classmates. Some received financial aid and some didn’t but it wasn’t enough. One of my students just recently received a scholarship to Stanford and left because it still wasn’t enough. She previously left Yale for the same reason after one year there. Her debt, I would argue, was more than her parents would have needed to bear if she was an American citizen. Though on the bright side I was left with a hardworking undergraduate student in my classes.</p>

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<p>Sorry, I meant: Many elite schools offer very limited financial aid for international students.</p>

<p>(I inadvertently deleted part of the sentence when I was editing).</p>

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<p>Amherst is not the only very selective liberal arts college that grants generous aid to international students. In 2007-2008, the average aid package to internationals at Williams was $48,259. At Swarthmore, it was $42,729. At Pomona, $37,930. At Middlebury, $42,511.</p>

<p>Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore and Pomona are all among the 20 most selective undergraduate institutions in the USA. More selective than Rice, Northwestern, Chicago, Berkeley, Georgetown … or Cornell. Swarthmore also is more selective than Dartmouth, Brown, or Duke (if you measure selectivity by admit rate, scores, and GPA/rank, using the US News method). I would not say these LACs are “Ivy equivalent”. If anything, it would be more appropriate to say the undergraduate programs at most Ivies and other very selective universities are “LAC-like”. That is, despite having robust graduate programs, these universities maitain the small classes, minimal use of TAs, and focus on the liberal arts and sciences that you’d find at a LAC. </p>

<p>LACs are pretty much a US phenomenon. International students may tend to be unfamiliar with them. Apparently they do not apply in large numbers and are sought after by these schools. Therefore, for an international student who wants an “Ivy-par” undergraduate education at a discounted cost, a LAC can be an excellent contrarian choice.</p>

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<p>^^ With that I agree. I also see your reasoning for the large international aid at LAC’s. And yes, many internationals don’t understand LAC’s enough ( Canada has those schools too, see Mount Allison and Acadia for example). </p>

<p>But comparing LAC’s to Ivy’s may just be another thread altogether. Oh btw, my student just got a full scholarship for grad school to McGill. Some good news. :)</p>

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<p>Hmmm, I don’t buy it. </p>

<p>Yale has one of the most generous finaid policies for internationals. It is both need-blind and meets full need (as determined by them); your “friend” must have had other income/assets. Heck, several Ivies have similar finaid policies, including Dartmouth. Unlike Yale, Stanford is not need blind and they clearly state such on their website; Stanford does not offer merit scholarships, only need-based aid. Thus, your friend willingly took Stanford’s offer whatever it was…</p>

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<p>She is not my friend she is my student. Clear distinction, in my part of the world ( Middle East) you cannot mix up a Muslim female / friend and a male professor. You are asking for trouble. She received funding as she explained it. However, it wasn’t sufficient. She wrote a wonderful personal essay about it for one of my classes. Quite eloquent. I get the feeling considering her parents background, from (Palestine, as refugees of some sort) that even 75% funding wouldn’t have been sufficient. And I am talking about living expenses, dorm etc. So full need as determined by Yale was not enough in this case. I think it was too much of a financial burden on her parents still. Not really concerned if you don’t buy it. I wrote a nice reference for her for grad school and watched her walk in graduation a few weeks ago.</p>

<p>Oh, and btw, I graduated with a large debt from Columbia despite financial aid.</p>