how is an Ivy-par education ever worth two decades' worth of debt?

College Search & Selection
1

<p>I get scared by statements like, "Don't worry, I was debt-free by age 35," even though their sayers attended fairly prestigious schools. It makes me wonder if a "top school education" is the biggest rip-off ever. 35 years of intellectual labour ... invested just in time to allow you to start raising children to go through the same system and hype ... </p>

<p>I'm not talking just about the prestige -- but "dream" programmes and faculty, access to research resources, etc. along with all the joys of rigourous and stimulating intellectual pursuits and peers. But 20 years of toil for four years of a "dream"? It seems to me merely a modern version of Esau selling his birthright for a bowl of soup. How is it not worth it to delay it for four more years and get access to those resources at graduate school? </p>

<p>What I'm hoping in my heart is someone to say, "yes, it's worth it. The intellectual and career growth you will receive during those years will be exponential." Then I can attend my rigourous school worry-free.</p>

<p>And if it's not worth it .... then it seems like all the truly smart students should just attend community colleges, get easy degrees and enjoy a comfortable income that way. You're more stifled intellectually, but at least you'll have an easy lifestyle.</p>

<p>It just seems that choosing the most intellectually-stimulating career path doesn't make economic sense, at least not in the American economy.</p>

2

<p>I agree that it isn’t worth it to go to an Ivy school incurring too much debt. But, it is better money spent than others who spend hundreds of thousands on gambling, buying Mercedes on loans, buying expensive clothes, and many other consumer choices whose return on investments do not equal to the investments. People at least get top notch education at the top schools. But still, I wouldn’t go if I had to pay way too much debt. But, aren’t HYP the schools that give you away tons of financial aids anyway?</p>

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<p>I meant “par” schools – ignoring rankings but rather schools of a similar rigour (and tuition!)</p>

4

<p>So you mean schools like Northwestern, Duke, Emory, Vanderbilt, etc, the schools that are good but don’t give away tons of aids. My brother told me, btw, that at Duke, like 60 % of the people don’t get any aids at all. Needless to say, Duke is a very wealthy school and the kids there are, in many cases, from very well-off families anyway.</p>

5

<p>Ivy caliber schools (I would include Duke in that category, maybe Northwestern, but definitely not Emory or Vanderbilt) tend to be better options for students whose parents will (and can) pay full tuition/room/board/fees/books, etc. or students that are genuinely poor because aid is need-based (they basically attend for free and now without loans at many schools). For the middle class kids, it’s a tougher choice because you are going to be in dept. The idea that you should just go to a community college though is a little misguided/troubling (unless you want to transfer to a top public after two years). There are many community college graduates that are jobless and have little chance of entering many high paying industries. But, in America, the most successful tend to be entrepreneurs, and may or may not have attended college at all. If you have a great idea, can market it well, know how to start and run your own business, and are successful at it you can become very wealthy with little to no education. It happens all the time in this country while there are Harvard grads that have trouble finding a decent gig if they don’t do all that is necessary to secure one while they are a student.</p>

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<p>I’m in this category, and my situation is not like that at all. Part of the problem is that I submitted my FA application late (I was overwhelmed!) and even if I had not, my desired school (UVA) would still make up for a lot of the need with loans.</p>

<p>This is a general question too, asked on the behalf of any others with similar thoughts (but different schools).</p>

7

<p>If I am not mistaken, UVA is often cited as offering some of the biggest bang for the buck, especially for out of State students. Near Ivy education at a fraction of the cost. Most of the UVA grads I know seem to have done very well. If $40K is all your are estimating you will have as debt upon graduation, that is a drop in the bucket in terms of lifetime earnings. Some employers pay that just as a sign-on bonus. Just realize the AVERAGE med school student has over $200K in debt on graduation and won’t make any serious money until his mid-thirties at the earliest. A decent college education is a pre-requisite in this very competitive market. </p>

<p>As far as starting your own business without a college degree, that is unlikely to happen in any high growth industry. Most small business owners make less than typical salaried employees. No serious venture capital group will even look at a business plan where the founders have not gone to graduate school, let alone college. And you have a higher likelihood of being admitted to a good graduate school or landing a good job offer if you first attended a highly selective college. </p>

<p>I just can’t see any downside going to UVA.</p>

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<p>It’s not like the choice is between Ivies and Community Colleges… many in-between schools have great faculty and fantastic opportunities of the sort some people think somehow only exist at brand name schools.</p>

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<p>cellardweller: Thanks, the reassurance is nice.</p>

<p>Well, here is for making a major life-changing decision by the end of the week. I’m definitely leaning towards enrolling at UVA despite the possibility of having to take out really major loans. (On the other hand, if a good aid package comes in this week my fears may be for nothing.) In any case, I hope I don’t regret it years down the road …</p>

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<p>Obviously it’s an investment, and there’s great merit to the argument that it may not be worth it… but let’s not ignore that being well educated isn’t just a financial status, it’s a privilege and something you can take pride in - something that should improve your life. There are obviously schools better than others, and schools more expensive than others, so within your ability to be admitted, you should find the school that has what you consider the best balance. Obviously, some people find that an Ivy League school is the best investment for them…</p>

11

<p>If I were you I would go UVA knowing that you have the opportunity to better yourself more than most people can. The debt will suck, but I’m guessing that when you look back, you’re more likely to regret not educating yourself the best you could, than regretting paying top dollar for a great commodity</p>

12

<p>This thread is old but since people are commenting, it’s important to understand the facts.</p>

<p>The only kids facing this situation at the ivies and peers are those whose parents are deemed to be able to afford it and can’t or choose not to pay.</p>

<p>That’s a whole different issue than whether it’s worth the debt for the poor. These schools require no or relatively low student debt.</p>

13

<p>As usual, hmom has got it right. Most top colleges have excellent financial aid and meet the full financial need of all of their students. </p>

<p>Here is a comparison of Top 50 colleges sorted by the amount of debt that students have at graduation and the degree of need-based financial aid that the school offers.</p>

<p>Avg Debt at Graduation , % of need met for undergrads , College</p>

<p>$5,859 , 100% , Princeton
$9,871 , 100% , Caltech</p>

<p>$10,813 , 100% , Harvard
$11,108 , 100% , Rice
$12,297 , 100% , Yale
$12,589 , 81% , WILLIAM & MARY
$14,148 , 100% , MIT
$14,291 , 88% , UC BERKELEY
$14,323 , 84% , UC IRVINE
$14,946 , 100% , U N CAROLINA</p>

<p>$15,155 , 81% , UC DAVIS
$15,318 , 87% , U FLORIDA
$15,724 , 100% , Stanford
$16,317 , 85% , UC SAN DIEGO
$16,733 , 83% , UCLA
$16,800 , 80% , U WASHINGTON
$17,000 , 82% , U TEXAS
$17,107 , 82% , UC S BARBARA
$19,016 , 100% , U VIRGINIA
$19,085 , 100% , U Penn
$19,358 , 100% , Boston College
$19,390 , 100% , Brown
$19,839 , 100% , Vanderbilt
$19,891 , 67% , U ILLINOIS
$19,908 , 100% , Northwestern</p>

<p>$20,095 , 86% , Brandeis
$20,126 , 100% , Dartmouth
$20,881 , 87% , GEORGIA TECH
$21,123 , 77% , U WISCONSIN
$21,984 , 98% , Johns Hopkins
$23,181 , 100% , Emory
$23,333 , 100% , Georgetown
$23,687 , 100% , Tufts
$23,961 , 96% , Tulane
$24,205 , 100% , Duke
$24,500 , 88% , U Miami
$24,750 , 100% , Cornell
$24,827 , 100% , Wake Forest</p>

<p>$25,586 , 90% , U MICHIGAN
$26,800 , 56% , PENN STATE
$27,121 , 100% , U Rochester
$27,562 , 100% , U Chicago
$27,692 , 100% , USC
$29,756 , 96% , Lehigh
$29,835 , 100% , Notre Dame</p>

<p>$30,375 , 82% , Rensselaer
$30,533 , 84% , Carnegie Mellon
$34,850 , 72% , NYU</p>

<p>$37,892 , 87% , Case Western</p>

<p>na , 100% , Columbia
na , 100% , Wash U</p>

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<p>Interesting that schools that meet 100% of need still have students graduating with debt.</p>

<p>The numbers in post #13… are those average dollar amounts of debt per student or per student that takes out loans?</p>

<p>And those debt numbers are for those that graduated. So for those students entering college next fall…with the cost of education going up rapidly… it seems like those debt numbers are understated. Quite a bit.</p>

15

<p>Hawkette’s numbers are useless or outdated for several schools due to new financial aid policies. </p>

<p>An example would be loan-free Vanderbilt, which would currently have a much lower average indebtedness.</p>

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<p>I wonder how these numbers are compiled. My guess is that they are not complete because students would have to submit the information. Private loans may or may not be included, and my guess is that debt falls into that “none of your business” category for a number a graduates. The ones with the most debt probably don’t report.</p>

17

<p>With the possible exception of Cornell, Ivy League graduates from poor or middle income families will graduate with little or increasingly no debt compared to US alternatives.
No worries!
From a financial point of view, the best asset for college is being a bright student performing at a high level. You might get into schools with Ivy League levels of need-based financial aid, or just below that level, qualify for strong merit based financial aid.
The only school on hawkettes list that had a no-loan policy for the undergraduate period under consideration is Princeton. Most loans were for eating club dues and fees, which have since been ameliorated by changes in financial aid policies.
Thanks for the info, hawkette.</p>

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<p>The debt numbers reported are highly misleading and mask the reality of education financing. Unlike grad students, college student cannot qualify for large educational loans in their own name. </p>

<p>The debt numbers reported are the STUDENT’s debt amounts which is generally the compulsory work-study component that virtually all schools require their students on financial aid to contribute. </p>

<p>The numbers listed have nothing to do with the PARENT’s debt in financing the education which can be an order of magnitude larger.</p>

<p>So when Princeton states the average student has $5,000 in debt on graduation, the average parent may very well have borrowed $100,000 to finance that education. The debt is just not recorded in the student’s name who cannot legally qualify for such borrowings.</p>

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<p>So if a student is only using private loans, they would not be included either?</p>

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<p>Thanks cellardweller. That was helpful.</p>