<p>I am only in high school trying to think of what I am interested in going into. When I look at law schools though, the tuitions seem obscenely high. I've heard it's only worth it to go to a top 14 law school, but if the tuition costs around $50,000 (and then the other expenses on top of it), how could somebody possibly afford that if you are not rich? I understand there's financial aid, but I would guess that it's not enough for many families. So if you want to go to a premier law school, but your family is not rich, how is it possible to afford it?</p>
<p>Federally-guaranteed student loans.</p>
<p>Lots of lawyers are very successful without going to top 14. This is the same discussion that has been on many threads. Each family has to figure out what they can afford and fund out of 1) savings, 2) financial aid, 3) current earnings 4) future earnings in the form of loans. Then each has to decide what they are willing to sacrifice to fund the education. </p>
<p>It may be necessary to broaden the search and to recognize that going to the best school (however you define that – I’m not here to argue that) is not a necessity… I can’t imagine believing that “it’s only worth it if you can go to the best.” That means that some huge percentage – probably over 90% should just give up.</p>
<p>I know that you are making this statement specifically as to law school; however, if one extrapolated from your statement that an education is only worthwhile if you can go to the best, the other 90 % should just get jobs at McDonalds. There is a large swathe in the middle – from very good but not the best probably to meh.</p>
<p>Going to a top 14 law school is not a necessity or a right. Everyone has to decide what they can pay for the luxury of getting the best. </p>
<p>Also, consider what you want to do with that fancy law degree. Work at a top firm in New York where you will be expected to work very long hours, weekends, etc. for some substantial period of time? Work in public service? (Might be some potential for loan repayment there, but the salary won’t be that high). Work outside the east coast/west coast corridor where salaries may not support the loans? Do some serious investigation of what lifestyle you can expect with each option, and then make an informed decision.</p>
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<p>By “lots” I assume you mean “a few people make it, but most are unemployed and crushed under massive student debt they won’t escape without either fleeing the country or waiting 20 years.” And yes, that really does mean a huge percentage (although not 90%, probably more like 75%) should “just give up” (good job phrasing rational, economic decision-making in a negative light). </p>
<p>You see, law school, as our OP just learned, is incredibly expensive. That means that middle-class students can get scholarships, get good jobs that can pay back loans, or go into repayment. The first option is pretty hard to do at the top schools, the second only available in the top schools, and the last the fate of most law grads (even most employed law grads). </p>
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<p>This is at best dishonest. OP was talking about law school. Law school is not the same as “all school.” You can tell because other schools exist besides law school. What you did was not “extrapolation,” it was a strawman. Ironically this error in judgment is one the LSAT specifically tests. That makes me wonder whether you took the LSAT, and if not why you think you should be offering advice about law schools.</p>
<p>No. I mean lots. I know this from personal knowledge. It wasn’t necessary to be hateful. I gave honest, true advice about a subject that I know a lot about. It’s fine it you disagree but you are not correct. I took the LSAT, scored very high, went to a highly rated law school and graduated in the top 10 of my class.</p>
<p>I agree that law school is expensive. That is why I recommended careful research.</p>
<p>Your tone is completely unreasonable and would cause me to doubt anything you have to say. </p>
<p>The costs of law school have increased about 50% since I started and the value of the degree has plummeted.</p>
<p>Frankly, I don’t see anything wrong with believing that a law degree is a luxury good, on par with a fancy car or an insanely expensive purse. While there are loans for it, there are very few cheap law schools left, and the chances of not being employed are huge.</p>
<p>But I also see this changing by the time you go to law school. The bubble will burst and some schools will do what they should have been doing all along: selling a law degree that enables you to hang a shingle or work for ghe government, and selling it for a reasonable amount of money.</p>
<p>@ch1746, things will change by the time you’re a junior or senior in college. You’ll have a clearer picture of what law school admission, cost, and job results are likely to be for you and for your cohort of entering 1Ls. The legal profession is being squeezed at the moment, and after the fallout there will probably be fewer law schools, some of which may offer a different/less expensive course of study; even fewer jobs in the legal profession (though still some); and you’ll have a better idea of what it takes to wind up with the kind of job you want. You don’t need to decide right now that law school is unaffordable for you.</p>
<p>$50K per year is indeed daunting. But if you post a strong undergrad GPA and LSAT, you won’t have to pay the sticker price at most T14 schools. If you’re admitted to those top 3 schools that provide no merit aid, you’ll have the most recent stats to consider when thinking about how good an investment HYS might be for you.</p>
<p>@moneymom, I don’t see why it’s necessary to rail at the posters here. I’m sure you do know successful lawyers who attended schools outside of the T14, and lawyers from T14 schools who are barely getting by. But making prospective law students aware of the very sobering numbers for non-T14 grads is a kindness, not being “hateful, nasty, [or] unpleasant”.</p>
<p>Well, I am a junior now, but I know I don’t have the faintest idea of what life will be like for me in 4/5 years. The thing is, I’m looking at Michigan State’s James Madison College (supposedly a more rigorous version of their political science department), especially their Political Theory & Constitutional Democracy degree. It’s supposed to be good for pre-law. But, I’m sure there’s not very many job prospects for that type of degree, so I’d have to be dead set on law school if I did that. I know there’s a lot of people who double major with something like economics, which would probably be a good idea. What I don’t get though is taking a year or two off before law school to get a job. If you majored in something like philosophy or classics, how are you supposed to get a job with a major like that? I assume that you would get it for law school, not getting a different job. Sorry for being young and naive, but it can’t hurt to look into things early. Very early. </p>
<p>Another way to look at it is to analyze Georgetown’s employment numbers – released yesterday. (GU is a perennial #14, but jumped into a tie for #13 this year.)</p>
<p>Based on GU’s own data, ~46% of its grads will end up with a job that enables them to payoff their loans; in other words, less than half will have what many will consider a successful outcome, (given the debt load of nearly one quarter of a million dollars, with compounding interest).</p>
<p><a href=“Admissions & Aid | Georgetown Law”>Admissions & Aid | Georgetown Law;
<p>Employment numbers decline drastically from there on down the food chain.</p>
<p>I concur with frazzled comments: get as high a GPA as possible, even by taking basket weaving. Rock the LSAT and top law schools will pay you to attend. Well at least they are today; no one can foresee the application market in 5+ years.</p>
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<p>Any job will work, even retail.</p>
<p>I went to a good law school, but not top 14 (I think about 40-45 in the rankings). The guy who sits near me went to Harvard and we have the same job (I know I’m a better lawyer than he is). In the office there are lawyers from all different law schools, took different paths, and yet we’re all working in the same office.</p>
<p>If you only want a job that starts at $150k, then yes, you need to go to a top law school or a good law school and be #1-3 in your class and want to stay in that city. If you want a good job that pays you for your work, your level of expertise (and you won’t have any expertise!) you can find one if you are realistic, work hard, take the right classes. If you want to be a tax lawyer, major in accounting in undergrad. If you want to do patents, become an engineer. Nurses make great lawyers because they know the medical field. If you want to be a trial lawyer, you are probably going to have to put some years in at legal aid or with the DA’s office, not making much but learning a lot.</p>
<p>You can put down law schools outside the top 14, you can work toward getting into one of the top 14, or you can investigate your options and make it work for you. Or pick something else. No one will care that you are not a lawyer or didn’t think law school worth it. It can be expensive. There are many many schools that aren’t worth it, but there are far more than 14 that educate good lawyers every year.</p>
<p>I would go for the classics degree over the Political Theory degree: it’s much less faddish. Then you go out and find a job - any job - and see where your career takes you. If you end up needing more school or an advanced degree (classics is great for b-school, by the way), get it when you know exactly which degree you will need for which specific job. </p>
<p>As always, don’t go to law school unless you want to be an attorney.</p>
<p>@moneymom, which attorney should be reprimanded - presumably by his/her state bar - for unprofessional conduct? You should be aware that sanction is a serious thing, and that by mentioning it as a penalty for bad beahviour on an Internet forum, you look like the one who is overreacting.</p>
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<p>There are roughly [45,000[/url</a>] law graduates per year. The crash began affecting law schools in 2007. That means there have been (7 x 45,000) roughly 315,000 graduates. Either you’re just really, really popular, or you know all of a couple cases that amount to nothing more than noise. The numbers don’t lie; the statistics don’t care about that one kid you knew when. As anyone can tell from even a cursory glance at the [url=<a href=“http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/]job”>http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/]job</a> placement numbers](<a href=“http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2013/02/historical-data-total-number-of-law-students-1964-2012.html]45,000[/url”>http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2013/02/historical-data-total-number-of-law-students-1964-2012.html), employment tracks school ranking very closely and drastically. The fall in employment as you leave the T14 is tremendous, and even within there’s a substantial gap between the top and the bottom. All told, only half of law law grads are finding employment [at</a> all](<a href=“Barely half of all 2012 law grads have long-term, full-time legal jobs, data shows”>Barely half of all 2012 law grads have long-term, full-time legal jobs, data shows), let alone decent jobs.</p>
<p>Law school is very expensive. After you factor in interest accrued while in school, it is entirely possible that you’ll owe $250,000 on graduation. Don’t believe me? Plug in the numbers [url=<a href=“Financial Aid | Georgetown Law”>Financial Aid | Georgetown Law]yourself[/url</a>]. Even with some aid, the average law grad is carrying [url=<a href=“Average Debt of Private Law School Grads Is $125K; It's Highest at These Five Schools”>Average Debt of Private Law School Grads Is $125K; It's Highest at These Five Schools]$125,000[/url</a>]. Do you know many college graduates with a spare $125k to bet on black? Neither do I.</p>
<p>Given that only half of law students are getting jobs at all, and those jobs are funneling quite heavily to the top schools, and the cost of law school equals a home mortgage, and that debt cannot be discharged without fleeing the country or waiting 20 years for PAYE to kick you into a massive tax bomb, you better believe I’m hateful. It’s hard to see why I shouldn’t be furious. Here you are telling some high school kid that it’s ok if he goes to a lower-ranked school because the top schools are a “luxury” and not a necessity. In the face of the mountains of data saying just how drastic the choice to attend a non-top law school is, advocating otherwise is either deliberately dishonest or grossly ignorant. Either way, you shouldn’t be offering any advice.</p>
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<p>First off, there’s really no such thing as pre-law. No major is going to be any better than any other for law school. For employment, major can matter. If you’re interested in IP law you’ll need that science background. Firms right now are looking mostly for CS/EE majors. I don’t see that changing any time soon. If antitrust interests you, an economics background is a good way to showcase is. While plenty of people with non-economics backgrounds get into antitrust work, there’s no denying it makes it easier. Similarly, for those interested in tax, it’s a good idea to have an accounting background. Again it’s not necessary, but it can definitely help. Other than that, as long as you’ve taken a basic economics, US history, and logic (found in the philosophy department usually) course, you’ll be all set with the information you need for law school. </p>
<p>As for job prospects, there are actually many jobs for those who graduate with humanities degrees, they just usually have nothing to do with the underlying degree. For example, you could work in HR with a polisci degree as well as anyone else. A fairly traditional road is to get a job as a paralegal for a few years and then go to law school. These graduates tend to be looked on quite favorably. Work experience is definitely a plus when it comes to legal hiring because it shows the employer you are capable of working in the kind of environment they want to bring you into. </p>
<p>^^ I completely agree, and will add one thing:</p>
<p>“Back in the day,” lower-ranked law schools could be a very inexpensive way to obtain a JD. Now, they charge Cornell-type prices without Cornell-type job prospects, which makes them an objectively insane choice for anyone who isn’t wealthy or on a scholarship. Going to one of those schools as a full-pay student (or even half-pay student) is like buying a Ford Pinto for the price of a new Mercedes. Or rather, buying a Ford Pinto for the price of a Bentley, because you can buy a Bentley for less than a law degree.</p>
<p>I didn’t say that someone should be disciplined for bad behavior on an internet forum. I said that I thought the conduct was like that of attorneys who act unprofessionally. I have served on a professionalism committee where we discussed the difficulty with attorneys who make the practice of law miserable due to consistently combative rude and unpleasant behavior. This is a problem in the profession overall I did overreact, although I do think that the tone here can often be unpleasant and rude. It is possible to disagree without ridiculing anyone who disagrees with you. All I was trying to say is that there are more than 14 law schools that can provide a good education and turn out lawyers who can practice law and do a very good job and make a living. I also wanted to point out that there are a lot of options for what a lawyer can do. Those entering law school are often not aware of all the options. I agree that generally law school is too expensive and may not be a good economic investment in the current climate. I also believe that law schools will likely have to change their pricing and models because fewer students will be willing to pay the very high price of law school.</p>
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<p>No one misunderstood what you were trying to say. The issue is not your intent but your message. You’re right that you can get an equivalent education at probably any school in the top 50. That’s not all that surprising since they all pull professors from the same small pool, and who goes where is based on “scholarship” rather than teaching ability. You’re right that most schools turn out grads equally capable of practicing law (which is to say, they don’t). I’m sure many law grads can “do a very good job.” I’ve no way to quantify that so sure. Where you’re dangerously, critically wrong is in thinking many law schools turn out law grads who can then “make a living.”</p>
<p>I’ve already given you the data on law grad employment figures. They’re bad. Very bad. Half of law grads have no chance of getting a job in law. Of those who do, most will not make nearly enough to pay for law school. Only about 10% of grads end up in firms paying enough to service law school debt. Those decent, debt-paying jobs cluster tightly around the top schools. It’s just not good enough to be well-meaning. You claim to have sat on professionalism committees. Well, the bar rules of every state I’ve seen require lawyers to make themselves well informed about the subjects on which they intend to offer advice. The advice you gave is objectively, factually wrong on an essential issue. If you really take your ethics seriously, you have an obligation to both educate yourself (I’ve provided a lot of the tools you need) and retract your earlier, erroneous advice. </p>
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<p>While perhaps true, this begs the point of why get a law degree in the first place ? (if to do something other than practice law) </p>
<p>Retracted. Don’t go to law school. It costs too much, lawyers are under too much stress, practicing law is miserable, and lawyers have a very high rate of addiction and suicide.</p>
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Exactly. Gone are the days in which a student can take out loans for law school and be confident in his ability to earn a decent enough living to pay them back, buy a house, and put the kids through college. Law school can mean utter financial ruin for young people.</p>
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Here’s the downside to that: the lawyer will spend his entire life explaining to recruiters, HR, interviewers, and employers why he went to law school but doesn’t want to be a lawyer. If he never got hired into a firm, people will think that he’s not good enough to be a lawyer, and, completely ignorant of the fact that about 90% of law grads never get those jobs, think he’s a loser.</p>
<p>Again, I apologize. I know many lawyers from other than top 14 schools who are very successful financially, but they are not recent graduates, and as you have pointed out, times have changed. I also reacted to what I perceived as personal attacks, which caused me to make improvident comments. </p>
<p>That’s entirely fair. I commend you on recognizing an issue and learning from it. If there’s any more information I can provide on what’s going on for recent law grads, I am happy to help.</p>