<p>I'm preety poor (lol), and I live on a country which sends 100-500 students in America every year. If in the letter of recommandation my teacher also says stuff about me overcoming my bad financial situation, etc,etc. how much do you think this can improve my chances? Let's also say that I have high SAT scores, good and school results, and good extracurricular activities.</p>
<p>I'm also white and male ( :( ).</p>
<p>Please don't answer just to say that ''it's impossible to chance someone if you don't have the full information about him'', I just want a aproximation (maybe a procent) of how much can this improve my chances.</p>
<p>Being a financial aid-seeking international student is never good. Most universities (including several of the Ivies) have a very limited financial aid budget for foreigners, and the rest are so super selective that you’d need at least a national-level accomplishment to be a viable applicant. </p>
<p>That being said, what do you mean by “overcoming your bad financial situation”? Are you graduating valedictorian of a fairly wealthy high school class even though you had to work 40 hours per week to feed your siblings? Did you run away from home and have been living on your own so that you could attend a better school in another part of the country? Or are you just trying to say, “I am bitter because I never got to have an iPhone or go on a fancy vacation.” ?</p>
<p>I don’t know very much about you, but your posting history on CC suggests that you aren’t all that disadvantaged. Your father has a college degree. You have internet access. You still have 4 years of high school ahead of you, yet you are already planning to study abroad, suggesting you are growing up in an environment that values education. That puts you ahead of many working class Americans!</p>
<p>b@r!um, thanks for your answer. Still, there are some things I’d like to tell you. I don’t say that I’m poor because I don’t have an iPhone (although I don’t have one :)) ). Of course, I don’t have such an extreme situation, but it’s preety bad anyway. As an example, I can’t afford to take a shower so frequently as a normal American does - I have to wait 1 to 2 weeks to do that. </p>
<p>The environment I live in does NOT encourage education - the education system from my country is sick and corupt.</p>
<p>My parents are struggling to obtain money to buy even the things needed at school - most of the time they borrow from people they know to do that. Most of the salary of my father (more then 50%) is going into loans, so it’s preety hard for us. Of course, a lot of people from my country are like that, because it’s a horrible country, but most of them do not have good results at school. Please don’t compare the working class of America with us. You have better conditions of life, and a lot more opportunities + the average salary in America is bigger then the biggest from our country. After all, America is the most developed ‘‘country’’ from the world.</p>
<p>Also, the environment from my country encourages racism (more then 50% of the people are this way), objection of sexual minorities (90% of the people) and of other cultures (more then 50%), and most of the people have an old way of thinking - as an example, in some villages (including my own) people may consider a quiet, and/or different person a wizard or witch and if that’s the case, that person will be ignored or treated differently (in a bad way). It’s horrible to live with such people, really.</p>
<p>Also, religion is one of the main factors that people consider when making a friend, and my parents have the all ‘‘qualities’’ listed above.</p>
<p>Your comment “a lot of people in my country are like that” makes it sound like your family is pretty much like everyone else in your country - which makes you sort of middle class by your country’s standards. So the ‘poverty’ angle is probably not going to work. A better recommendation letter would say something to the effect that ‘this is the best student I’ve ever had’ ‘this is the most driven student’ etc. That’s what schools that give FA to internationals are looking for. And that will be much of your competition: exceptional people/students.</p>
<p>I think “the family is part of a religious and cultural minority which means we are shunned, threatened, and at risk” should also be part of your counselor’s recommendation and mentioned in some way in your essay.
Applications are read in context. If two applications arrive to a need-blind school, one from an international private school’s bilingual student, and one from you, and you have the same score, you “win” because it required more work for you to succeed at that level. If the school is need-aware and the international private school kid can pay, and you can’t, and you have the same scores, s/he will be picked, and you won’t: therefore, for BOTH to be admitted, you’d need to have a more compelling lifestory. If you have the compelling essays AND better test scores then odds are better for you.
To increase your odds, you need to apply to colleges where few students from your country apply. Those would likely be LACs or schools in the Midwest and South, plus a few in the Rockies or Pacific Northwest.</p>
<p>I never said that. By ‘‘a lot’’ I mean like 20% of my country. What if the teacher says something like ‘‘In spite of having a bad financial situation, he remained driven, and managed to become one of the best student from our school’’ or something like that? Wouldn’t that make it sound more impressive?</p>
<p>MYOS1634 we are not a religious or cultural minority, my parents ARE like the others. Please read what I wrote above about the people from my country. The fact that I have to deal everyday with corruption, racism, objection of sexual minorities and of other cultures doesn’t make my life more ‘‘compelling’’ then others? </p>
<p>Yes if the teacher said something like that it’d be good but s/he would need to provide at least one example.
If everybody in your country has to deal with corruption, racism, etc, then your story wouldn’t be compelling in relation to other students from your country (against whom you’d be judged); however, why YOU object to these commonplace occurences that most people in your village/country don’t seem to think about, that’s interesting.</p>
<p>If by commonplace occurences you mean the ‘‘corruption, racism, etc.’’ then I object these simply because it’s NOT normal to hate people based on where they were born or how they were born, and corruption is not normal neither. And yes, everybody in my country has to ‘‘deal’’ with corruption, racism, etc. but the thing is that the most of them they ARE the same way as well - they are not affected by that, for them it’s just normal. That’s actually one reason why I want to study (and live after) in America.</p>
<p>Now, returning to the main subject, I’m preety surprised that my situation doesn’t advantage me at all.</p>
<p>You’re judged in relation to other students from your country; so if you’re as poor as most of them, there wouldn’t be an advantage, no. If they’re as poor as you are they would have had to struggle as much as you did, and for some even more.
You will not be compared to American students. There are admission officers who specialize in International applications. First you’re judged in context against all others from your country, then all applications that made the cut are judged against one another and often in relation to how much money there is and how it should be allocated. This process is slightly different for American students.
I didn’t mean “it’s interesting that you’re against corruption, justify yourself here” I meant that it’s something that may make you stand apart from other applicants from your country who do not think in this way and thus it should be included in your application as to how you reached that conclusion - any significant event? - and in a more sophisticated way.
You’re right, compared to most countries, things aren’t really corrupt here. In fact if you try to bribe in any way an official (such as a school official to change your school record, a DMV employee to expedite your driving license processing…) it is a serious offense and you can’t “find an arrangement” when you get in trouble. At all. Ever. For example if you have a fine you have to pay it, not pay the officer who issued the fine.
BTW the spelling is “pretty” but used as an adverb emphasizing an adjective it’s more correct to use “quite”. (You can keep using “pretty” in that sense here where it’s informal and most posters are teenagers, but pointing it out just in case.)</p>
<p>Hi again MYOS1634. Thanks for your answers!</p>
<p>As I said in my post, there aren’t many kids from my country who apply in America (100-500 every year), and most of them are ‘‘rich’’ for my country’s standards. The fact that few studends from my country apply may help me to get accepted, because they want cultural diversity. Am I right?</p>
<p>I thought that this will be an advantage because a few colleges where I want to apply (Harvard, other ivies) do NOT condiser where the studens are from, so the admission is not influenced at all if two studends come from the same school or country. They also want cultural diversity and people with who overcomed a bad situation (ex. poverty, a disease, etc.). And, I think that most of these schools don’t have problems with offering scholarships, even to international students. What do you think about it?</p>
<p>The Ivies very much take into account where you come from - that’s how they get cultural diversity. (If they didn’t take it into consideration, 99% of their international students would be from China or India.)</p>
<p>Cultural diversity is also a broad concept. For example, the school may decide they have too many Europeans and not admit an Irish student because they’re going to admit an Albanian, even though there are few cultural ties between the two. Ditto with Latin America or Asia. </p>
<p>“They also want cultural diversity and people with who overcome a bad situation” – not necessarily. They want exceptional students/people, and overcoming a bad situation is ONE SIGN of exceptional character/life. But there are others. For example, publishing a novel at 17. Or winning an international Olympiad. Or being the child of a Rockefeller. </p>
<p>Trying for the Ivies with financial aid is like playing the lottery. Yes, some people win. Most lose. Rules of probability say you will lose.</p>
<p>Why do you say it’s like a lottery? If it would be like that, you couldn’t improve your chances…Some ivies are need-blind, by the way…</p>
<p>But what makes you think I’ll lose? I didn’t told you everything about me. What about the others colleges that offer financial aid? What can I do to improve my chances (assuming that the admission is not like the lottery).</p>
<p>You really need to inform yourself about this process, HD. </p>
<p>Need-blind does NOT mean they don’t look where you come from!</p>
<p>What I wrote is “rules of probability say you will lose”. Because they do. The Ivies reject between 85-97% of their applicants. </p>
<p>Don’t forget that the Ivies don’t just admit students: they BUILD A CLASS. What does that mean? That means, that every year they have to have a certain amount of athletes, musicians, physicists, writers, classics majors and rich kids.</p>
<p>If Yale’s orchestra needs a french horn player and it comes down between choosing you or someone with similar statistics who also plays the french horn – who do you think will get in?</p>
<p>Go on the Harvard/Yale/Sanford/MIT threads of this forum, and read the amazing stats of the amazing students who DIDN’T GET IN. </p>
<p>This isn’t a game where everyone who’s good enough wins. This is a selection process that has little to do with you and everything to do with the university’s needs, and everyone else who is competing against you.</p>
<p>The only thing you can do to increase your chances of getting financial aid to an American university is to apply to a wide selection of schools that include lesser-known universities and colleges in areas of the US (the south, central plains, the central north) that are less popular with international students and where there’s less competition for financial aid. </p>
<p>Find a cure for cancer, or even the common cold, and that might increase your chances for the Ivies ;)</p>
<p>HD: You seem to assume that applicants to the Top 10 national universities and Top10 LACs are “cut” or “rejected” because they were not qualified. That’s not the truth and that’s why it’s such a lottery. Among applicants to Ivies and similar-caliber schools,the great majority of applicants are qualified. 50% are as deserving as each other and are amazing. So they’re chosen with regards to the school’s needs.
Add to this that, when you read “The Ivies eject 85-93% of their applicants”, the % of admits needs to be divided by two for you (at least) since, as far as we know, you’re “unhooked”. In fact for international the % probably needs to be divided by three… This does NOT reflect on your abilities and achievements. Simply, being chosen <em>if you have the right profile</em> is a matter of luck. Obviously we’re not talking of someone who does not have the right profile.</p>
<p>katliamom, I think you’re exagerating a bit when you say that you have to cure cancer to enter Harvard. I know a few students who got accepted at some ivies and other top schools, and they weren’t SO incredible. Yes they had good school and SAT results, and very good essays, extracurriculars and recommandation letters. And yes they were quite outstanding. And they got admitted (most of them with full scholarship, as it’s impossible from someone from my country to pay the taxes from an American college). They didn’t cured cancer, and I don’t think it was a matter of luck, as they weren’t that different from the average ivy hunter.</p>
<p>MYOS1634 I think that some of them are rejected because of that. You realise that A LOT of students applying are just kids who know that they’re unqualified, that they have 1 chance from 1000, but because of how easy you can apply they simply do that. I think that there is a big ammount of students like that - after all, rules of probability say that from 35.000 students that apply from around the world, a significant number are unqualified (considering how easy it is to apply).</p>
<p>Yes, of course there are a lot of qualified students that are rejected, but I don’t think that from 35.000, 30.000 qualified kids are rejected.</p>
<p>And as I said, I think it’s easier for someone from a country that sends less students in America to be accepted. Right now there are very few students from my country that study at Harvard. In other good universities there may be none.</p>
<p>Don’t say ‘will it advantage me’–that is incorrect usage. You can say will it ‘help me’ or 'will it give me an advantage</p>
<p>It can work in your favor yes, to show that you excelled despite having obstacles that others didn’t have. But to ask people to quantify that is absurd.</p>
<p>HD: I don’t think you want to hear what we’re trying to tell you.
No, there aren’t a lot of “unqualified” students who apply to the Top 10 LACs/National universities. Everybody knows they’re extremely hard to get into. Few guidance counselors would support unhooked students with a 3.4 and unremarkable ECs apply. All students who apply have a shot compared to others they know. But you know of outstanding students who succeeded, not how many equally outstanding students didn’t succeed. That’s why we say it’s a matter of luck.
If you read carefully, I did say that some don’t make the cut because they don’t measure up to the school’s standards. HOWEVER once roughly 50% have made the cut because they really stand out, it all depends on how extraordinary they are. That may be defined in many ways but it still comes down to being extraordinary. And still once you only keep the extraordinary ones, by the admission officers’ own admission, they have three times as many qualified students as they can admit. One explained that they could throw the applications in the air and those falling on the left are in, those falling on the right are in OR do the reverse, and have a “perfect” class either way. Still that’s not what they do. So, among all the extraordinary students, they have to figure who will fit the institution’s needs best. There’s no way for you to know in advance what the school will need. One year they’ll need three (solo-level) violonists and one bassoon player. The following year they’ll need one trumpet player, one flute, and one viola. The viola player would be out of luck the first year but would get in the second, with no variation in stats or essays or recommendations.
Very few students from your country study at Harvard also because very few got in. It does indicate fewer applied, but we can’t quantify the odds since we don’t know how many applied vs. how many got in. 4 out of 20 is pretty good odds, 4 out of 400, not so much.
I know you think 100-500 in a year is not many, especially compared to India, China, Mexico, South Korea. But keep in mind only 25 or 60 students may apply from some countries. 500 is a little less than many countries. So it may increase your odds a little if you apply to other schools than where most of those 100-500 will apply. If you apply only to the same basic 10 schools most apply to, you’re just one among 300.If you are lucky and you get into an Ivy League or similar school, great. But NO ONE can “plan” to get into such a school. So you ALSO need to apply to schools were very few students from your country apply. If you’re one among 4 or 5, your odds increase a lot, don’t they?</p>
<p>“katliamom, I think you’re exagerating a bit when you say that you have to cure cancer to enter Harvard”
– OF COURSE I was, silly.</p>
<p>“but I don’t think that from 35.000, 30.000 qualified kids are rejected”
– then you’re pretty much wrong. And you misunderstand the process. It’s not about being qualified. It’s about having just the right combination of qualifications/profile/skills to get in. Much of what these schools are looking for is beyond your control.</p>
<p>One thing is for sure: if you don’t apply you CERTAINLY won’t get in. So go for it. I wish you luck.</p>
<p>Just a tip… you should double check whether the admissions process of schools is need blind for international students. Many schools in the United States will be need blind for Americans but not for international students. As someone mentioned above, many of the schools have small budgets to spend on the international students’ educations.</p>
<p>And by the way, glad you want to broaden your horizons and study in America, but make sure that whatever recommendation you get written for yourself is about you overcoming your situation or why you think it is unacceptable. However, when explaining why you think racism, corruption, etc. is unacceptable, try not to make it sound like you are totally bashing those concepts and that you want to go to America just to get away from it all. America has many of those same issues. Some people do not see them everyday, but typically, those kinds of topics are sensitive and controversial. So just be careful when you mention them…</p>
I meant that it’s something that may make you stand apart from other applicants from your country who do not think in this way and thus it should be included in your application as to how you reached that conclusion - any significant event? - and in a more sophisticated way.