<p>What do people think is acceptable debt for a non-top 25 law school? Not bottom of the barrel school, but not up there? Any thoughts would be appreciated.</p>
<p>I think that it all becomes relative.<br>
Are you talking about 40-70k of debt, which may be expenses after accepting a 3 year tuition scholaship or are you talking about going in debt for the whole ball of wax.</p>
<p>There are schools outside of the top 25 that still place well in their markets. For example: Fordham, BU and BC all fall outside of the top 25 and students take on debt to attend there however, Fordaham still places better in NYC than some schools outside of the T14 and in the top 25.</p>
<p>There are students that know they are going to practice where they attend school and that school places extremely well in the local market.</p>
<p>Just like undergrad admissions there are a limited number of seats and everybody cannot/will not get a seat in the top 25. Just like undergrad you will have students who get accepted to top schools and financially won’t be able to swing it.</p>
<p>alright, what if we drop down below Fordham and BC? Lets say below top 40?</p>
<p>I think the point Sybbie makes about knowing where you want to practice is a good one. If you (or your student) intends to practice in the area where the law school is located, and if that law school has a good record of placing its graduates in the local market, then the amount of debt one should be willing to take on will be tied to the average salary of lawyers in that market. The decision needs to be based on the liklihood of employment with a degree from that school. While it is true that the top one or two students and the Editor-in-Chief of the Law Review of many law schools may be considered for “Big Law” jobs, the overwhelming majority of the class will not. So, determine the amount of debt you are comfortable with by the likilhood of employment and average salary in the market in which you realistically expect to practice.</p>
<p>I realize all these platitudes, but I was hoping for numerical answers. Many people say limit undergrad to Federal loans, so a total of about 25K.</p>
<p>However, a law school student can actually borrow the full cost of attendance though a combination of Stafford/GradPlus loans with out parents/parent input. You can borrow up to $20.5k/yr in Stafford loans (which ends up being a given in your FA package). </p>
<p>While many of the top schools may give some component of need based FA (example Harvard will first give you the 40k in loans before need based aid) they will still request parent information if you are under 27 (I think it is 30 at Penn).</p>
<p>Sybbie, I am certain some appreciate your advice about how top schools give need based FA, BUT I am asking about the non-top schools, that do not give much need based aid. I realize one CAN borrow full COA. I am asking what people think is right number students SHOULD borrow for schools below top 40.</p>
<p>I am really asking the question, how much debt makes sense for the non-top schools. Does anyone think that even the 20/year is too much? I think it now will start accruing interest at almost 7 per year.</p>
<p>I think that it is going to be a personal decision for the student and or their family. So no one maybe able to give you the answer that you are looking for because you do have students at all end of the spectrum from borrowing the whole ball of wax to attend a T-14 to students borrowing the whole ball of wax from a TTT. </p>
<p>Is there undergrad debt involved that will also be added to the law school debt?</p>
<p>Does the school in question have an IBR program, so if the student doesn’t get a big loan job?</p>
<p>Is the student considering going into public service where they may be able to have the federal loans forgiven after working and making payments for 10 years?</p>
<p>Sybbie, lets be honest. There are not enough public service jobs to go around. Many of the students from less than T-30 schools would LOVE those jobs, but can not get them. IMHO, it is OUTRAGEOUS that loans are forgiven for jobs that are oversubscribed. </p>
<p>I dont know what an IBR program is, but I suspect the lower schools dont have theem.</p>
<p>Many schools have LRAPs (Loan Repayment Assistance programs. try doing a google search with the name of the law school and LRAP to see what comes up.</p>
<p>Start here, hopefully this will help. Since I don’t know what schools you are referring to, perhaps you can look up LRAP or IBR on the schools website and then you can see what the law school in question offers and to what extent.</p>
<p>[Educational</a> Debt Relief | Equal Justice Works](<a href=“http://www.equaljusticeworks.org/ed-debt]Educational”>http://www.equaljusticeworks.org/ed-debt)</p>
<p>IBR (Income Based Repayment Plans) It doesn’t matter where you attend law school, it is about what student loans are eligible for income based repayment plans.</p>
<p>[Income-Based</a> Repayment (IBR): An Explanation](<a href=“http://www.top-law-schools.com/income-based-repayment-explanation.html]Income-Based”>Income-Based Repayment (IBR): An Explanation)</p>
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<p>[Paying</a> For Law School - Loan Forgiveness Programs | AdmissionsDean.com](<a href=“http://www.admissionsdean.com/paying_for_law_school/loan-forgiveness-programs]Paying”>http://www.admissionsdean.com/paying_for_law_school/loan-forgiveness-programs)</p>
<p>Sybbie, thank you, those links were really helpful. </p>
<p>One of the problems I see with these programs, for people NOT going to Top 25, is that the tier beneath that, including say Fordham and BC, are oriented towards jobs in NYC or Boston. Running throught the calculators, it seemed that the “poverty level” is computed nationwide, not locally. Thus these programs seem MUCH less helpful for the Fordham or BC grads who will be practicing in NYC or Boston than say the U of Georgia grad who might be practicing in suburban Atlanta. </p>
<p>When I put in hypothetical numbers, it really doesnt seem to help potential grads who will be working in high cost areas that much.</p>
<p>
Thank god for state tuition waiver for Guardsman in NJ. I would not even consider going to law school if I could not go for nearly free.</p>
<p>However, even if you should have free tuition, you are not going to school for “free”. You still have to purchase books, study guides pay exam fees (MPRE/Bar) bar review courses) etc.</p>
<p>In addition you would have to balance whether attending Rutgers (ranked 82 Camden/99 Newark with a 66% employment rate at graduation) even for “free” is “worth” it when looking for a job in NJ/Philadelphia where you will be in the pool with students fro much higher ranked schools next door in NY and Pa.</p>
<p>
It doesn’t matter for me personally because I’ve never had much trouble finding jobs that I want with my BS Computer Science, security clearance, and military experience as a commissioned officer.
It would only be after getting a MS Computer Science as well. I look at it as more of a personal goal to complete law school part time (over 4-4.5 years).
I’m really not worried about the “employment” aspect of the typical law school grad.</p>
<p>KK, you bring up some interesting points, as does Sybbie.</p>
<p>So let me rephrase my question, for those with undergrad degrees in social sciences/humanities (i.e., majors other than STEM or business), interested in working in high cost of living areas (like NYC or Boston or Wash DC), where the forgiviness programs are not worth as much (because the poverty level threshold which is part of the calcuation of forgiveness is not COLA adjusted) - how much debt is worthwhile for schools ranked under say 25</p>
<p>The only way to answer your question would be to find out what your chances of getting a job out of a specific law school are, and in light of the well-documented instances of law schools telling less than the truth about how many of their graduates actually get law jobs, and what those jobs really pay, that’s going to be pretty tough.
You’d also have to ask yourself-how far “under” top 25 would you be willing to go.
But let’s take your hypo, with you trying to live in NYC or Boston or DC, and take the highest ranked local schools below top 25-Fordham, Boston College(both 29), and George Mason(39); you can go much lower if you want, but let’s stick with these three. Proponents of all three insist that “big law”-i.e. high paying-law jobs are available to graduates of all three in their home cities(ok, Geo Mason’s in No VA, but that more or less counts as DC). In the law pedigree of your law degree is everything for the big money jobs-at least at the very beginning of your career-but is there any way to objectively determine how many grads of each school got high-paying jobs? Sadly, no. Numbers produced by schools are untrustworthy, and unemployed law grads rarely like to advertise their unemployment. I would suggest that while it is possible to get high-paying jobs from all three schools, the number of graduates getting those jobs is small indeed, limited to top 25(not top 25percent, but actual top 25, and this may be too generous) with Law Review or similar. If you can guarantee you’ll be there, then it’s worth going to those schools. And right now, I think you’d agree that it’s impossible to make that guarantee. When I interviewed for jobs in law school a long time ago, the only thing recruiters asked were class rank/GPA, and if I was a member of Law Review; for many, being an editor of LR was required to be considered. I don’t think that’s changed.
The further you get away from the schools with a pedigree, the harder it will be for you to find work, anywhere, in any capacity.
If you don’t know your projected salary, it’s virtually impossible to set a number for supportable debt. And nobody on this forum can tell you what your salary will be after law school, or tell you what your comfort level with debt is. The only thing you can decide is whether you want to go to law school, knowing that your job prospects-and hence ability to pay debt-will be directly related to 1. the brand name of the law school you attend and 2. how much you’ll be making on graduation(which is directly related to #1, and how well you do at that school).
And since it’s extemely difficult to get reliable law school graduate employment/salary data, it really is a roll of the dice. Where you go to school, and how well you do there, will play a big roll in employability/salary, but there are no guarantees of a great salary-or even employment-after graduating from law school(see statement made by president of the ABA in this regard).
And if you’re wondering where this all potentially leads, check out “law jobs” on your local webpage that ends with “list”; I’m looking at the DC board now; it’s got a document review job posted for licensed attorneys paying $27/hour. They will get plenty of resumes.</p>
<p>I would not pay to attend a non top 25 school.</p>
<p>Thank you cranky (and I dont think you are cranky) and arbiter. I appreciate your both not giving the standard “it depends on blah blah blah” IMHO, the kids who do have a good shot at law review will get financial aid. The rest of the crowd, likely won’t (and I realize some will, but its a BIG bet). So where does it leave the Fordham/GM/BC crowd? With huge debt, looking for work in expensive cities, and even if the grad can GET public service jobs, the way the loan forgiveness is rigged, the formula means not so much help for kids in high COLA areas.</p>
<p>There is a vast oversupply of lawyers.</p>
<p>I suggest that a different route be taken.</p>
<p>floridadad55, just curious and feel free not to answer but where did you go to LS?</p>