How much does a poor junior year hurt my S with college admissions offices?

Parent Cafe
21

<p>These are the things you need to do off the top:</p>

<p>Have your son get a copy of his transcript.</p>

<p>Get a copy of your school’s profile from the GC</p>

<p>Have his counselor do a credit check for him to make sure that he is on track to graduate this june.</p>

<p>You stated that he failed an elective, he will need 7 elective credits in order to graduate so if he needs to add another class to his course load or register for PM school that he can do that this term. He will also have to make up gym, so he needs to make sure that he can get 2 gym classes in his program or take the second gym in PM school because he cannot graduate unless he passses 7 gyms and health (you would be suprised at how many students do not graduate because of gym).</p>

<p>The reality is a 68 average junior year is going to hurt him because it has also pulled down overall GPA (probably down to the C range) and URM status going to make up for that as there are going to be plenty of URMs from the NYC prublic school system who took care of their business and are coming with better scores and GPAs. Since most of the applications (especially for the SUNYs would be going out before he makes his comeback, what he hopes to do will not be a factor as the schools will look at what he has done by the time they read his application).</p>

<p>His overall gpa is going to hurt him at the SUNYs and at Hunter where most of the students have a ~ 92 average (I have the GPA ranges, but today is not a school day in NYC so I don’t have them at hand).</p>

<p>Here are the SUNY ranges so you can get an idea as to where your son stands:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.suny.edu/student/downloads/Pdf/2007_Admissions_QF_StateOp.pdf[/url]”>http://www.suny.edu/student/downloads/Pdf/2007_Admissions_QF_StateOp.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>It won’t be a fate worse than death if he takes the community college route as he will have an automatic tranfer to the SUNY’s or CUNY’s and it would give him some distance from his high school grades and he would start college with a clean slate. </p>

<p>He should also look into ASAP (a new program at the CUNY CC’s) if he scored at least a 75 on the english and the math regents, he would be exempt from the CUNY placement exam and eligible for ASAP. If accepted he would get free tuition (students not eligible for FA would have their tuition covered by ASAP) a $500/ term book stipend and a metro card.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www1.cuny.edu/academics/academic-programs/programs-of-note/asap.html[/url]”>http://www1.cuny.edu/academics/academic-programs/programs-of-note/asap.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I hope this helps</p>

22

<p>We have friends whose son is at Ithaca and he loves it ( from Seattle) Strong theatre/music program but very competitive</p>

<p>General wisdom is that students are more attractive from outside their immediate region to schools who wish to have a more diverse student body</p>

<p>I can’t speak to the administration at his school , but I commiserate with your problems.</p>

<p>However- glitches in any public school ( or private) are not unusual-* yet students who are most successful learn to adapt and make the most of the situation<a href=“some%20it%20takes%20a%20while-%20but%20better%20to%20learn%20the%20skill%20than%20not”>/i</a>
For example- my daughter who attends ( IMO) the best public school in the city ( and has the highest number of NMS semi finalists in the state of public schools) had substitutes for most of the year last year in Spanish 3, consequently virtually none of the students in her class were able to go on to AP Spanish- so she isn’t taking a language.</p>

<p>Her school also has 6 periods, but because of schedule conflicts they only gave her 5 classes and we had to fight for those.</p>

<p>And I repeat * this* is what I would consider a strong school- with excellent teachers- a wonderful principal and attentive parents.</p>

<p>I agree with the advice to determine what you can afford- and have a range of options
Schools from what I have heard- mostly look at junior year.
However- my older daughter took a year off- with Americorps and schools were able to consider her senior year- this allowed her ( IMO) to attend a much more rigorous ( and expensive) school than she would have been admitted to otherwise.
This isn’t why she took a year off- that was just an added bonus- but I think for many students- a year off or a year or so at a community college can be very wise.</p>

23

<p>Sybbie has a wealth of info in her brain and at her disposal so please listen to her. Her knowledge about NY schools is deep. I, too, was concerned that your son’s URM status would not be enuf to make up for his scores last year because there are many URMs in NY that come to the table without a fallen GPA. </p>

<p>Have you met with the GC at your son’s school to make sure he will have enuf credits to graduate??? (I’m glad our state doesn’t require that much PE - just one year!) </p>

<p>You may want to consider this… Even tho the school’s upheaval last year was not your son’s fault, he is responsible for how he chose to respond to it (not going to class, etc.). It may be a wise thing for him to learn that there are consequences for his decisions - and one of the consequences is that he has to go to a community college so that those scores (and not his high school grades) will determine what college he’ll be able to qualify and get scholarships for. I say this because your son may learn a very valuable lesson . He’ll learn that upheavals that are out of our control are part of life. It’s how you face those challenges that determine maturity level…</p>

<p>I don’t think a gap year is best in this case because it still leaves colleges with only his high school grades to look at. If he gets high marks in a community college, most colleges won’t care what his high school grades were.</p>

24

<br>

<br>

<p>This sentence jumped out at me. This student failed the class because he stopped attending. My biggest concern would be re: attendance in college. It is all too easy to not go to classes. No one is watching over you or reminding you to do so. And attendance DOES count. This was this student’s CHOICE…not bad instruction…student choice. And what will happen the next time this student “doesn’t like” another instructor? Will he stop attending classes?</p>

<p>That being said…your list of instate NY publics looks reasonable to me. I personally would not invest the dollars in a more expensive place until this student showed more responsibility with regard to school. Not attending classes is irresponsible.</p>

25

<p>thanks JL!</p>

<p>I am also concerned that OP’s son feels that his reason for the downward trend is because there were changes in the school administration, classes, teachers, etc and as a result he decided not to attend classes. A lot of this is just the nature of the beast when it comes to public education: administrators don’t get along with the school board, school districts, politicians, etc. Teachers come and go, funding cuts happen which affect certain program and the list goes on.</p>

<p>Keep in mind that CUNY and SUNY are straight numbers; either he makes the cutoff or he doesn’t.</p>

<p>As far as the private schools are concerned, if there a different set of circumstances, I would say to meet with the GC to get a feel for how s/he would address the situation in the recommendations. However, if your son “falls apart” at the high school level this may send flags to the admissions committee that he is not resilient and cannot adapt to change (and with college comes changes).</p>

<p>OP should also consider purchasing the online version of the US News because he can use it to pull together a list of schools by gpa/SAT scores.</p>

26

<p>My son failed Spanish because the new teacher hired by the incompetent new admin was horrible and he stopped going to class.</p>

<p>When my older daughter complained about a teacher in high school- I was curious- so I sat in on a class.
I was blown away- really a great teacher.
Often parents get a distorted view if they just hear a students version of the story.
Now- 7 years later, my D realizes how lucky she was to have that teacher.</p>

27

<p>First, get thee to your GC to investigate the scattergrams for your school. You need to memroize those diagrams.</p>

<p>Second, that 68–and skipping class as a solution–will hurt. Most definitely. That’s okay. Many boys learn things the hard way.</p>

28

<p>milkyway… I think that there is a growing consensus that doesn’t want to see you commit good money towards a 4 year college until your son has demonstrated some tangible growth and responsibility. He needs to really grasp that he played a major role in how his grades turned out last year. There will always be “strange upheavals” in life (at home, at school, and at future jobs). </p>

<p>This reminds a bit about my b-i-l. He has a PhD in Particle Physics - but he hasn’t worked in 25 years. He claims that it “bothered him” so much when the union workers at his job when on strike and he had to cross the picket line. The “stress” was too much so he quit and never went back to any job ever again. so… here is a guy with a PhD and he’s only worked 2 years in his life. Talk about not being able to handle any stress, change or upheavals… no resiliency at all… But also he is someone who was looking for an excuse…</p>

29

<p>Thanks for all the great replies. I might not have been clear about not wanting to spend 20K+ on a mediocre private school. I wasn’t referring to the schools we’re looking at, but rather those that might be considered lower than those. Schools like Ithaca seem like quality schools that I’d be happy to see him attend and I would try to find a way to pay for it. But I assume there are lower rung privates that he would be able to get into with no problem. However, it would be difficult to justify spending 20K more on them than on living at home and attending Hunter or another CUNY.</p>

<p>I haven’t looked too deeply into paying for college yet. I know this seems strange, but after last year I basically did not concern myself much with finding him a college. He was not willing to do what is necessary to go to college yet. I pretty much let him know, however, that after this year he would either be in some kind of school, be employed, or be living somewhere else. Late this summer he surprised me a bit when he said he wanted to start prepping for the SAT. He hasn’t exactly been a workaholic, but he is being good about doing something every day, and we also discuss colleges a bit every day.</p>

<p>If I need to pay 20K+ it will be from a combination of loans, cutting back expenses, and perhaps increasing my income. I guess this is what most people do. To justify this kind of cost, however, I would have to feel the school he would be going to will greatly benefit him both academically and in terms of personal growth.</p>

<p>Some good arguments have been made in this thread about taking a gap year or going to community college. We will definitely look into these options. But right now we’re rushed because we’re beginning the search process so late. The GC wants all apps in by mid November, so we need to decide which scools to visit and make arrangements to see them in October. Once that’s over we can look into other options and also into paying for college.</p>

<p>Comments made about my son’s conduct last year are certainly valid, and his academic record was not just because of the extreme problems at his school. But I believe he never would have had these problems if it weren’t for the purging of the previous administration. S was as happy as he had ever been in his life at the school, and it was destroyed overnight. I think of last year as a very bad teen stage he went through, but now he’s transitioning out of it. An additional year of maturity before attending college may very well be what’s best for him.</p>

<p>Northstarmom mentioned Elmira College. That’s a school we’re considering. I really liked it when I first looked into it (especially when I saw they gave a 9K scholarship for 1000 SAT). It seemed like a good possibility, but I am concerned that the M/F ratio is 30/70 and also that it is categorized by usnews as a baccalaureate college, with more than half its students there for preprofessional training. It seems to be mainly a school for women looking to become nurses and teachers. There’s obviously nothing wrong with that, but I’m not sure S will feel like it’s where he belongs. A more diverse, artsy crowd is more for him.</p>

<p>S is the type of kid who is reserved around people he doesn’t know well, but is very outgoing with people he is comfortable with. If he never feels at home at a school he’ll lose interest. I agree about avoiding the party schools. We’ve talked about needing to find the right balance between work and fun. </p>

<p>I’m very appreciative of the many informed comments in this thread. I’ve been very busy at work this week unfortunately, but this weekend I will be looking into the links like Americorp that have been mentioned. I will also be sure to take a good look at the SUNY and CUNY info mentioned by sybbie719.</p>

30

<p>OK…this might sound like a stupid question…but What does your SON want to do about college? Is HE interested in rural/urban/suburban school, small vs. large, public vs. private? Has he expressed interested in a gap year or some similar “transition” year? I agree with Northstarmom…he needs to take the initiative with this college search. I will tell you that your $20,000 will only pay 1/2 of the cost of the private schools you are talking about. My guess is that most will not give him $20,000 plus in additional finaid. There are students with more consistent and better high school performances who don’t receive $20,000 a year in financial aid at these “quality schools”. And included in their aid would be things like Stafford loans for the student. I will say that there are some fine quality educations provided at schools that are not high on the radar screen or the “rankings”…but that is another thread!!</p>

31

<p>“S is the type of kid who is reserved around people he doesn’t know well, but is very outgoing with people he is comfortable with. If he never feels at home at a school he’ll lose interest. I agree about avoiding the party schools. We’ve talked about needing to find the right balance between work and fun…A more diverse, artsy crowd is more for him.”
"</p>

<p>Your S’s personality sounds very similar to my S’s. Americorps was wonderful for my S because he loves volunteering. Because of the monthly reports that he had to write for the program, he also saw that in the real world, one has to write on deadline, something that he had avoided doing so much in high school that he spent the 3 solid days before final senior grades were due catching up on things like lab reports. S also grew a lot in sophistication by having to serve on a variety of citywide and regional committees where often he was the youngest person serving, and also had important responsibilities.</p>

<p>Do keep in mind that the GC-set November deadline for college apps is on your S’s shoulders, not yours. If your S is not rising to that challenge by researching colleges, etc. (and clearly he is a bright guy who knows how to use books and the Internet to research), he is not ready for college. You might want to suggest a few specific days in which you could take him to some colleges, and give him a deadline to come up with some colleges that he wants to see.</p>

<p>If he doesn’t meet the deadline, his behavior will be saying that he needs a gap year. Often this kind of procrastinating behavior is the only way that teens are able to show their unreadiness for college. They may lack the self knowledge to be able to verbalize their feelings of unreadiness. but their behavior may scream their unreadiness loud and clear.</p>

<p>My S appears to be continuing to do well at his LAC. This includes socially. He has 2 partying roommates (randomly assigned), but has chosen not to party himself. He says that he wants to get to know people and the campus in other ways before going to parties. The other day, the campus showed an interesting sociological film and its producers. S says he was one of only 15 students who attended even though the event had been widely publicized. Days before a paper was due for one of his classes, he e-mailed me to get some info that I had that he wanted to use for the paper. I can’t ever remember him getting ahead like that on an assignment.</p>

<p>My S, too, has always had a diverse, artsy group of friends. His college has a reputation as a school for preppy rich kids who like to party. Still, we’ve found that there’s a core of students who are like the ones whom my S has always enjoyed being with, and there are plenty of activities for those students, and the administration is very supportive of them – delighted to help them implement their ideas. The administration also has been offering merit aid to increase the numbers of students who are more interested in academics and service than partying. S is having a fulfilling time. Based on his experiences, you might want to check out Elmira to see whether it may offer your S what he wants. Sometimes you can’t tell what’s available at a college until visiting it in person.</p>

<p>Due to your S’s junior grades, Ithaca may be a stretch, and may not offer merit aid. If your S is ready to go to college, a LAC at the competitive level of Elmira may be the type of college that would be delighted to have him while also giving him some merit aid and the mentoring that would help him fulfill his potential.</p>

32

<p>I think most of Northstarmom’s advise is excellent, but I do think it’s an ongoing debate about how much students should do for college apps. Sometimes in an area of high stress it’s hard to function, and that doesn’t mean the student isn’t ready for college. For instance, everyone wonders why I’m not more proactive in getting my voluminous writing published. I honestly don’t see the path there, though others do. If my H took responsiblity for packaging said work for agents/publishers and writing cover letters it would be great. I don’t think it means I am not ready for publicaton. YMMV.</p>

<p>I think the Americorps gap year is a wonderful idea if your son wants to do it. It’s clear that NSM’s really benefitted from it. My son would not have been willing to do this. He wanted to go to college; he just was no where near as interested as I in the process.</p>

<p>Things he wouldn’t do:
Read mail from colleges
Peruse college websites
Look up schools in ratings guides
Contact profs at college</p>

<p>Things he would do:
Fill out common application
Write a really good essay and edit it
Get recommendations</p>

<p>Gray areas:
Showing any interest in finding good safeties
Being proactive on college visits</p>

<p>The only real initiative he showed was contacting people and meeting people at music department of the school he really wanted to go to. He is too immature to understand the importance of having this level of interest at other schools and contacting those profs. His interest was in going to school X, and I must say, he did make an effort to make this happen. Repeating the process with schools Y,Z,A,B, and C was all on my shoulders.</p>

<p>The happy result was that he was accepted at school X (and Y,Z, and A but not B and C) and is attending. He seems to be doing fine and thriving. He got himself into school symphony, choir and a by audition student a cappella group. He got a wonderful on campus job (in Music Department) and is excited by his classes. He called on night at 11:15 to say he had just completed his first college paper on the metaphysics of a movie they needed to screen.</p>

<p>So, I think dragging one’s heals in the college process doesn’t necessarily mean the child isn’t ready for college. (jmho) I hate job hunting much more than I hate working. One of the wonderful perks of being a tenured college professor is that I’ll never have to look for a job again.</p>

33

<p>“Things he would do:
Fill out common application
Write a really good essay and edit it
Get recommendations”</p>

<p>Those are all important and essential things that my S would not due his senior year. However, after he missed the deadlines for the colleges that he said he was interested in, he did talk to his volunteer supervisor, who found the funding for a new Americorps position, and when that position was advertised, without any involvement from H and me, S submitted his application.</p>

<p>Interestingly, I had suggested much earlier that S consider doing a gap year with Americorps, but S said he preferred to go to college right after h.s., and I saw no evidence that S bothered to look at the info I passed on to him about Americorps. </p>

<p>During his gap year, he managed to fund and organize the following: submitting apps, test scores, getting recommendations, and managing to visit a college on his own to participate in a weekend for students invited to apply for a competitive scholarship.</p>

<p>All of this illustrates that often actions, not their words, are the best indication of whether a student is ready/interested in going to college or taking a productive gap year.</p>

<p>Interestingly to me who finds learning about colleges so interesting, I don’t think that S ever spent any time looking through college guides or web sites like this. Although he had visited more than 10 colleges of different types, he applied to only 2 colleges: a hometown public and the LAC college where he now goes – one that he learned about when we were at a conference near the college just before its application deadline, and he met an administrator there who invited S to visit the college. S visited the college, fell in love with it and then went out of his way to do what it took to get accepted and to get the funding to attend it.</p>

34

<p>Yeah, it’s funny that we are so interested in this, and the kids really aren’t. Though there do seem to be many kids on CC, neither of my kids cared or really wanted to look at college websites. I’m glad I did though, because I gleaned the important information that landed S at his current, adored, #1 choice school.</p>

<p>Northstarmom: It really sounds like that experience was wonderful for your son. I’m sure most young people (including my children) would benefit from such an experience. However, most of us don’t have the motivating stick you did. This is a wonderful option to advise here.</p>

<p>I guess different kids have different laboratories for growing up. Living in NYC has been my D’s, even more than her college. Too soon to tell with S; he still seems a baby, but to give him his due, he isn’t 18 yet.</p>

<p>Northstarmom: Is it too nosey to ask what LAC he goes to? I’m intrigued by a school that could capture his heart like that. It seems to be a mysterious process. If too personal, I do understand.</p>

35

<p>mythmom, I’m glad you posted (#32), because my daughter (now a HS junior) is the same way.</p>

<p>She is excited about going to college, but she is definitely not excited about the process of applying.</p>

<p>She knows that I have researched this up and down the wazoo, and I’m sure that has taken away any feeling of urgency on her part to visit web sites and such (she also does not want to go on campus tours).</p>

36

<p>He goes to Rollins College, a small (1,700 undergrad) LAC that’s in Winter Park, a lovely town just outside Orlando.</p>

37

<p>I did most of the initial legwork for my son too, made all the phone calls because he hates to talk on the phone. The visits captured his interest in certain schools and he did an incredible job writing apps. AND keeping up his HS schoolwork even when crippling senioritis hit. He earned his choices and revisited his final choices with keen interest. By then, it was very real to him. If it doesn’t get real to your son at some point, where he’s excited about going to college and takes the reins, he may need a gap year.</p>

<p>One thing I did was write a brag sheet for the guidance counselor wherein I described my son’s incredible and unique mind. I let him read it before I sent it in and he said, “Wow–this makes me sound like an interesting person!” I said, “Kid, you ARE a really interesting person!” My advice is to help your child figure out his likes and dislikes, his strengths and weaknesses and let that lead to the next step. Big learning experience!</p>

38

<p>Another option might be a 5th year boarding school program. If he does well in that program, his junior year will be ignored by colleges.</p>

39

<p>We had a child in Chicago magnet schools system. We also ran into the change in administrators. One of our magnet schools had the kids protesting by handing in zero tests. My D. protested an inadequate English teacher by refusing to do any homework handouts that had a misspelled words and grammar errors. Teach gave her a C but yet she has a 35 on her ACT English. Thank god the kid self taught herself english! Now she is out of the mess and at a suburban school. </p>

<p>All I can say is befriend those teachers who can get to know your S the best. They will communicate the adverse conditions and what your S did to overcome the adverse conditions. I would think seeing it on the confidential T Rec would carry more weight. Besides, the teacher is in a better position to descibe the inside political chaos and how she/he saw it affecting the student body.</p>

40

<br>

<br>

<p>I am also concerned that you might not have looked deeply into TCA (total cost of attendance per YEAR)… Too often the focus is on tuition alone - even though room and board is very expensive in many areas of the country. </p>

<p>I know what sometimes what seems like “generous merit aid” (say $10k or $20k per year) can still not be enough when the TCA is over 40 - 50k per year (many privates). I know of many people - personally and here on the this board - that have to say “no” to some privates just because their “generous merit aid” still leaves the family with $25-30k or more to cover each year. Many people just look at tuition costs (5K - 35k depending on public or private) but room and board can add $15k, books and fees can add another 2k, plus there’s travel costs and misc costs. </p>

<p>ALSO – some merit aid does not increase with annual tuition changes - which means that a scholarship of, say $15k per year quickly, becomes a lesser percentage of tuition when increases generally happen each and every year. </p>

<p>On one hand, you’ve mentioned a certain willingness to pay $20k per year ($80+ for 4 years - assuming he graduates in 4 years!). </p>

<p>You mentioned having a son in the 10th grade. That means you will have 2 in college at the same time. Will you be able to afford to give as much to the other(s)? You mentioned that you are almost living paycheck to paycheck now. I don’t think it’s wise for you to be thinking that you’ll be able to contribute that much (20k per year), even with loans, when you have another child closely behind. Do you have any other children besides the 2 boys?</p>

<p>Thumper writes: >>> I will tell you that your $20,000 will only pay 1/2 of the cost of the private schools you are talking about. My guess is that most will not give him $20,000 plus in additional finaid. <<<<</p>

<p>I agree with Thumper… If your son hadn’t had that junior year GPA drop, he could expect some help because he’s a URM, but your son has to understand that his “wanting” to go to particular schools is not enough. He needs to understand that his choice to “give up” last year will impact his choices. On the bright side, you can tell him that he can “fix” the problem, by buckling down at a local state U or CC and then going to the university of his choice (because his high school grades won’t count at all). In the long run, I think this is a better decision. </p>

<p>BTW… I hope you haven’t told him that you will pay $20k per year. If you haven’t, don’t - spend this year “cutting back and trying to increase income” to see how “doable” that is. And if your son does go to a CC or local state U, you can spend the next 3 years seeing if “cutting back” or increasing your income works (and you’ll have some $$$ saved when he and second son start college.</p>