How much does applying and being rejected one year effect your chances future years?

<p>Hi guys,</p>

<p>I'm currently debating between taking a year off and applying next year and going ahead and submitting applications this year. I don't think my LSAT score is going to be high enough to get into my top choices, but I'm tempted to go ahead and apply anyway just to see what happens. If I don't get in I'll retake the LSAT in June and reapply next fall. I don't want to apply this year, however, if being waitlisted/rejected is going to seriously hurt my odds of admission next year. Thoughts? How much is it a negative is it to apply to the same school twice?</p>

<p>I don’t have any actual information on the subject, but my speculation is that it would have to harm your chances. Doing things unprepared has to be a bad sign; plus a school has already rejected you and will be inclined to stick with their choice.</p>

<p>Of course the chances won’t be 0. But I’d think they’d have to be harmed.</p>

<p>i can’t see how it will hurt. in some respects - the fact that you applied again shows u really want to attend their school.</p>

<p>i tend to believe adcoms are reasonable individuals who assume the best of their applicants.</p>

<p>elite applicants tend to think admission is a recognition of their success, and so anyone meeting requirements on the first “try” should be viewed as better. perhaps it may matter to tiebreakers - but on the whole, i don’t think adcoms view admission as a “reward” for one’s success, but as a means of trying to admit the best entering class they can. in my mind, this doesn’t necessarily mean rejecting someone who didn’t make the cut the year before.</p>

<p>I have no actual data, but I too would advise against it if you really don’t have the score. I think when someone has decided not to admit you, it takes a lot to overcome the presumption on their part that (s)he/they made the right decision.</p>

<p>It’s not as if you are starting over again from scratch–law schools don’t throw away your old app after decisions are made. When you reapply, the school will know this is your second attempt. </p>

<p>Now, if you decided to go ahead and enroll in another law school and then were trying to transfer, I’d give different advice.</p>

<p>

Which is… not a consideration. “I really really want to go to HLS” is a mark of desperation, not of qualification.</p>

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Of course this is correct. It’s also a straw man. The question wasn’t, “Does this bring my chances to zero” – the question is “Does this harm me.” And I would think it would have to.</p>

<p>i tend to believe adcoms are reasonable individuals who assume the best of their applicants.</p>

<p>^ That belief is not based on any logic, formal study, or even a single anecdote…</p>

<p>Perhaps this level of intellectual rigor isn’t appropriate for a law school forum-maybe you should save this insight for Bible study.</p>

<p>Your first sentence is freely admitted – indeed, posts #2 and 4 freely admit this right at the very top. Your second insults a very large crowd of people for no apparent reason.</p>

<p>^Silly, posts 2 and 4 were not written by armstrong, whom i was addressing. And intelligent religious people understand and accept the fact that their belief in god isn’t founded on rational logic or reason, so that comment should hardly offend them. In their everday lives, intelligent religious people embrace the rigorous, scientific logic that they reject only in their most private beliefs…</p>

<p>I apologize for assuming all religious people on this forum are intelligent, you’re correct, I probably shouldn’t.</p>

<p>What is all this talk about God? I don’t even believe in God. Please explain why you believe adcoms are unreasonable people.'</p>

<p>If you were on an adcom, would YOU be reasonable or unreasonable? If you think you’d be reasonable, why do you assume others would not be?</p>

<p>BDM wrote:</p>

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<p>Jump wrote:</p>

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<p>Jump felt the need to call you “Silly” on such a trivial matter. </p>

<p>Some folks need to learn some tact.</p>

<p>Chill out jump. I don’t see what I wrote (nor what BDM wrote that necessitated you call him an elementary-school insult) to be so offensive. I’m sorry you hate religious folk. But that doesn’t include me. And I’ll make a personal request that you please avoid the ad hominems if you can.</p>

<p>I just want to clarify that I don’t hate religious people. lol.</p>

<p>Many schools do not keep applications from year to year, a few schools make you get new LOR. Each school has different requirements . It’s best to change your essays but some do reapply if they applied late the year before.</p>

<p>Many of the responses here smack of silliness and blatant ignorance of the admissions process. Odds are, if your LSAT score was too low for the school, you were rejected for it. Except for Yale, Stanford, Berkeley, and maybe Michigan, this is the case. The rest of the law schools are just clear numbers games.</p>

<p>People here seem to think that a rejection is some visceral feeling from an admissions officer. More often than not, it is simply an admissions officer deeming your numbers too low and looking for a super-compelling reason to admit you. If you happen to bring numbers that are within the school’s range in the next admissions cycle, odds are that–unless you repeat your essays (which you should <em>never</em> do) or you know something else on your application is just really bad (multiple criminal convictions)–you will likely get in.</p>

<p>How do I know this? I was rejected one cycle and admitted in another at the same schools. I even used the same essays (was kind of kicking myself for doing that, but now I’m doing fine, I guess).</p>

<p>I was also admitted as a transfer at schools that waitlisted/rejected me outright during both cycles. </p>

<p>So no, it won’t hurt at all. Bluedevilmike, I know you attend a top law school (but I don’t know which one), and I know you probably frequent one of TLS/LSD/XOXO/LSN, so you are probably well steeped in the admissions process. Shame on you for not knowing better.</p>

<p>We all know that the law school process, at any school, is not <em>purely</em> a numbers game. The OP didn’t ask if it would eliminate his/her chances; obviously it won’t. The OP merely asked whether it would harm them.</p>

<p>While I was clear that I was speculating, my answer was that I think it is safe to assume that it will be a negative soft factor. Soft factors in general are not determinative in this process, but they are also not meaningless.</p>

<p>I just don’t think the soft factor is negative.</p>

<p>Also, applying twice in terms of showing interest doesn’t necessarily imply desperation. Some schools need to see interest from their applicants about that specific school, and applying twice might help toward that end.</p>

<p>flowerhead, </p>

<p>I really think you owe Mike an apology. “The shame on you” language is just plain silly. You’re certainly entitled to an opinion based on your experience, but your experience
does NOT prove that applying with a lower than optimum LSAT score doesn’t hurt you at all. It’s one data point.

That is your opinion; Mike and I both disagree. </p>

<p>It is even possible that different law schools look at this differently. There are roughly 190 ABA accredited law schools in the US; I suspect that they don’t all determine admissions using exactly the same factors weighted in exactly the same way. </p>

<p>Moreover, if you read my previous response, I specifically said I would give different advice for people interesting in transferring. I do NOT think that it hurts you to get rejected from a law school if you go to a different law school, do very well, and then reapply to LSs which had previously rejected. Very good grades as a 1L will counterbalance a lower LSAT score. </p>

<p>The results of your transfer applications are not evidence as to what will happen if you reapply for admission as a 1L. They are two very different questions. When you apply as a transfer, you’ve got something very important to add to the file–first year grades. </p>

<p>You also don’t say how much your LSAT went up. That’s relevant too. </p>

<p>But for someone who knows at the outset he probably wants to delay law school and who has a less than impressive score, I think the safer course of conduct is to wait until (s)he retakes the LSAT and has the (hopefully) higher score in hand before reapplying.</p>

<p>The reality is that unless something changes dramatically in your application, applying a second time to a law school that rejected you the first time is likely a waste of money. Most, if not all, law schools do keep applications from year to year (they would be required to do so for any student that eventually matriculates, as most state bars will require certified copies of an applicant’s application to law school as part of the bar admission process), and most, if not all, law schools ask applicants whether they have ever applied before to that school. </p>

<p>If the only positive change in your favor is that your LSAT scores went up a few points, then I highly doubt that the second time around will be a winner. </p>

<p>Neitjher applying to a law school multiple times nor taking the LSAT multiple times shows dedication to a particular school or to the practice of law. The decisionmakers at law schools know that law school and the practice of law is a one shot deal – typically, you take one exam at the end of semester that determines your grade for an entire semester of coursework, and you later give legal advice to clients with little or no opportunity later to revisit your advice and make changes. Learning to do your best the first time is part of the practice of law – there are no “do overs”. </p>

<p>(As a side note, I once received some excellent advice from a partner I admired when I was but a young baby associate at a BIGLAW firm in NYC. This partner told me that when asked for a draft of anything – a memo, an agreement, a brief . . . anything – make sure that you have read it twenty times, made sure that the legal analysis and citations are correct, that there are never any typos and that you would be happy to present your work as a final product. Why? Simply because a draft is not a draft. You need to always put your best foot forward and never anticipate or expect another bite at the apple. This same principle applies to applying to law school.)</p>

<p>Jonri,</p>

<p>I am well aware that my experience is merely one datapoint. I also believe, however, that applying twice is never a bad thing (unless, and this is in response to sally’s post, one’s application has not substantially changed). The LSAT is a huge component of one’s law school application, and if the OP were to raise his/her score substantially between the two cycles, I’d wager that he/she would have a far greater shot at getting into the schools at which he/she was previously rejected (assuming the new LSAT is within the range of the schools in question). The fact that the applicant had previously applied is a non-issue.</p>

<p>The issue of re-applying is a negative in other circumstances. Suppose a person applies just before deadlines, is rejected, strongly believes that he or she would have had a better chance had they applied earlier, and applies at the beginning of the following cycle with a substantially similar application. Will that re-application be viewed as a negative? Yes.</p>

<p>You call my view an “opinion” because you were misled by the structure of proof in my original post. Granted, my reasoning wasn’t entirely clear. I should mention that I’m basing my “opinion” not just on my admissions experience, but also on having worked and communicated with admissions deans at numerous T10 schools. </p>

<p>I most definitely do not owe Mike an apology. His original post was reckless.</p>

<p>sallyawp</p>

<p>I agree with your post, but I would like to add some specificity to them.</p>

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<p>Yes and no. I’d wager that if your LSAT score is at least 4 points above the previous one, it’s worth a re-application (assuming the new score is in the school’s range). Why 4? Well, the admitted margin-of-error is ±3, so–for law schools–any new score within that range is statistically insignificant. Only one school I know of–Michigan–has gone on the record about their discouraging additional LSATs unless the applicant went outside of the MoE, and has stated that they’d only consider LSAT scores beyond that range. I wouldn’t at all be surprised if other schools followed this practice.</p>

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<p>I think you’re approaching this from the wrong perspective. Suppose an applicant initially applied to, say, UVA with a 3.9/161 and was rejected. Suppose she retook the LSAT and scored a 175, and decided to apply in the following cycle. She would, arguably, have an outstanding shot at any law school, including UVA. In that circumstance, having applied twice will most definitely help. Schools that aren’t HYSCCN tend to be very conscious of their applicants’ interest in them, especially applications who are particularly competitive for other schools. That’s why schools like Penn and Michigan have “why Michigan/Penn?” essay prompts (as well as a handful of other T14s). </p>

<p>In any field, whether it’s applying for schools or for jobs, it always helps if the entity to whom you’re applying knows you want them (of course, there’s a line between desire and desperation; so long as the applicant isn’t in the latter category, it’s fine). Even if the school/employer is not your top choice, articulating why you want to be there and having demonstrable interest in them can be a boost (and one way to show demonstrable interest is to apply multiple times; I would know… I was on an admissions committee for a very competitive UG, and we definitely took note of applicants who had applied before).</p>

<p><a href=“As%20a%20side%20note,%20I%20once%20received%20some%20excellent%20advice%20from%20a%20partner%20I%20admired%20when%20I%20was%20but%20a%20young%20baby%20associate%20at%20a%20BIGLAW%20firm%20in%20NYC.%20This%20partner%20told%20me%20that%20when%20asked%20for%20a%20draft%20of%20anything%20–%20a%20memo,%20an%20agreement,%20a%20brief%20.%20.%20.%20anything%20–%20make%20sure%20that%20you%20have%20read%20it%20twenty%20times,%20made%20sure%20that%20the%20legal%20analysis%20and%20citations%20are%20correct,%20that%20there%20are%20never%20any%20typos%20and%20that%20you%20would%20be%20happy%20to%20present%20your%20work%20as%20a%20final%20product.%20Why?%20Simply%20because%20a%20draft%20is%20not%20a%20draft.%20You%20need%20to%20always%20put%20your%20best%20foot%20forward%20and%20never%20anticipate%20or%20expect%20another%20bite%20at%20the%20apple.%20This%20same%20principle%20applies%20to%20applying%20to%20law%20school.”>quote</a>

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<p>I really think this betrays much ignorance of the admissions process. The fact is that the process is so numbers-heavy. If your LSAT/GPA was previously in the range for a school, and you were outright rejected, I would agree with the above. However, if the applicant retakes and is now in contention, I disagree with the above entirely. The fact that schools are willing to take 2nd attempts at the LSAT pretty much throws a wrench in your “revisiting philosophy.”</p>

<p>I think this is a fairly localized circumstance in law, though; you are certainly right about the rest (though I dare say that some BIGLAW employers will accept a 2nd bar attempt if you fail the 1st one; in this economy, however, I wouldn’t take that chance).</p>

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<p>You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but applying twice is costly and takes a significant amount of time. To me, that is enough to warrant reconsideration of applying a second time absent significantly changed circumstances. </p>

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[/quote]
I’d wager that if your LSAT score is at least 4 points above the previous one, it’s worth a re-application (assuming the new score is in the school’s range). Why 4? Well, the admitted margin-of-error is ±3, so–for law schools–any new score within that range is statistically insignificant. Only one school I know of–Michigan–has gone on the record about their discouraging additional LSATs unless the applicant went outside of the MoE . . . I wouldn’t be at all be surprised if other schools followed this practice.

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<p>Actually, many of the top law schools average or don’t even consider a second LSAT score absent compelling circumstances such as serious illness during the first LSAT. Please search my previous posts over the last year, as I’ve posted quotes from the websites of many of the T14 law schools stating their actual written policies on this issue. </p>

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<p>Applying multiple times to law school in itself is not a boost. You don’t think that Harvard Law knows that many, if not most, law students wish they could attend HLS? Applying to law schools bears little relation to applying to undergrad in many ways. In fact, it seems to me that Harvard undergrad admissions officers, knowing how many students would give their first molars to attend school there, wouldn’t be swayed by anyone begging, pleading, sending cookies or applying multiple times. </p>

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<p>So my ignorance is showing? Darn it – I hate when that happens! I will certainly defer to your expertise if that is the case, though I remain confident that my many years of experience with the law school admissions process, the recruitment of attorneys from law school and in the practice of corporate law at BIGLAW, all of which I have written about with some amount of knowledge for years on this board, might persuade some out there that perhaps I am less ignorant than you would have them believe. My statements here are admittedly infused with my opinions on some topics, and anyone who reads those opinions is free to take them or leave them at will, but certain facts are just that – facts – and you have some of those wrong, flowerhead.</p>