How much harder is NU than UW-Madison?

College Search & Selection
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I got into Cornell when I was applying to colleges, and have taken classes there. I didn't think they were any more or less difficult than my classes at Michigan.

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I know this is about Northwestern and UW-Madison, but the underlying assumption that some one school is harder than another simply because of USNEWS rankings is false, especially when they are so close such as Wisconsin and Northwestern.

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<p>keefer: This comparison isn't much use here since UMich engineering program is ranked even higher than Cornell. UMich engineering is top notch and I am not surprised that the rigor of that particular program is as rigorous as any other programs out there. Besides, engineering is a hard major anywhere which this person, delivery man, has ackowledged. We are talking about more noticeable differences in say, Econ or other Liberal Arts courses or even sciences. Physics course at Madison is as hard as Physics course at MIT? I hope not. MIT is MIT for a reason.</p>

<p>A smart person like you (graduating from UMich engineering) might not feel much of a difference in rigor at NU comprared to Madison. But, a normal student might find it otherwise. The most accurate way to confirm this argument would be to conduct research with Madison students who transferred to NU or other top ranked schools and tell them to compare the differences. But, we can't do that and in this case we rely on others' testimonies in regards to this subject.</p>

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yes, but being 21 will come after 3-years at the college--unless a fake ID is at hand--more likely to be bounced out the door.

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<p>Most people turn 21 sometime during their Jr. year of college - so that's at least 1 1/2 years of bar hopping (not that being under-aged has stopped many students from imbibing on campus or going out to bars).</p>

<p>Plus, a big part of Madison's allure is its great bar scene - so that "restriction" would also apply to UW.</p>

<p>Don't get me wrong - Madison is my favorite college town, but as far as the campus having a more "diverse" party scene - it's pretty much the same at NU - just on a bigger scale.</p>

<p>As far as "strength" of the student body -</p>

<p>Northwestern
SAT verbal scores over 600 92%, SAT math scores over 600 94%, ACT scores over 24 96%, SAT verbal scores over 700 53%, SAT math scores over 700 63%, ACT scores over 30 69%</p>

<p>Wisconsin
SAT verbal scores over 600 61%, SAT math scores over 600 81%, ACT scores over 24 91%, SAT verbal scores over 700 15%, SAT math scores over 700 31%, ACT scores over 30 26%</p>

<p>Granted, these stats are a bit old (2005) - but there is a significant disparity in the overall strength of the student bodies.</p>

<p>Having said that - one can get just as good of an education at UW or any of the other well-regarded public research institutions. The downside being crowded classrooms (or not being able to get into the classes one wants) and a somewhat less-driven environment (where not all or the majority of students are "overachievers").</p>

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<p>aside from the discussion of how hard each school is, you're missing a big point:</p>

<p>a 3.8 at Wisconsin does not equal a 3.8 at Northwestern, if you look at absolute numbers such as HLS entering class data, Northwestern is more represented even while being a smaller school.</p>

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<p>^guys, we are not talking about if it's harder to get As or not. So I don't see the point of arguing about the caliber of students, unless the professors give more work because of the caliber of students but we don't have that proof. I think the workload NU is probably heavier than average mostly because of the sheer number of courses required </p>

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45 is a big number. I think some Ivy type schools are only requiring 30-36 courses.

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<p>Yes barrons. And I think Duke requires 34. </p>

<p>The engineering at NU is even worse--48 courses. While the core is similar to those in other schools, it requires more courses outside the core. I was a chemE and I had to take an intro course in civil engg department and another one in material science (There were couple others but I don't remember). They changed the first-year curriculum 10 years ago and added more. A bio course is now part of the core for chemE while most other schools have that as an elective for those chemEs who pick biotech as their specialization.</p>

<p>kyledavid80,
Cornell no longer has grade deflation. Refer to "median grades reports" on their website.</p>

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Cornell no longer has grade deflation.

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<p>I didn't say it did. I said it was known for it. (To be honest, I think the majority of the top privates have grade inflation.)</p>

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I think the workload NU is probably heavier than average mostly because of the sheer number of courses required

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<p>Yes, but how does that make it harder if the classes aren't rigorous themselves? If 45 is required, students take 4 classes per quarter; and sometimes, they're allowed to take 3 courses. 4 classes isn't "heavier than average." Yale, for example, requires its students to take 4 classes per quarter, and it isn't known for its rigor--any more so than other top colleges, that is. In this way, I'd say NU is about as rigorous as UW (though it'll depend on the major).</p>

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<p>I think there is a confusion between academic intensity and what students make of their undergraduate opportunity. </p>

<p>I don't think academic intensity varies much from university to university. Yes, some universities like Caltech, Chicago and MIT are known for their extreme academic intensity, but most universities aren't. Assuming two students take similar courses and course loads, I don't think there will be a significant different in intensity from one university to another.</p>

<p>This said, I definitely agree that at a school like Northwestern, the average student will push himself harder and take tougher courses and course loads than the average student at Wisconsin. </p>

<p>In the end, it really boils down to what one makes of her/his college experience.</p>

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<p>kyledavid80,</p>

<p>Yale is on semester system. Most quarter-system schools ask for 3 classes (9 per year and 36 for 4 years; U of Chicago asks for 42) per term and most schools (quarter or semester) require 32-40 courses to graduate. That's why NU's 45-course (48 for engineering) requirement is more than average.</p>

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<p>The differences are negligible, really. It's not going to really increase the "rigor" of NU by much, if at all.</p>

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<p>For the individual student, the answer to this question could be all over the place. I think we all know of students who go to "elite" universities and take relatively easy courses and coast thru their four years. We also all know students who go to the State U or some less "elite" college, take a very challenging package of classes and really work their tails off. IMO, whether you go to Northwestern or U Wisconsin or some other school, it's not going to matter that much as ultimately it falls back on you, what courses you choose and how you do. The adcomms at grad schools aren't dumb and they can figure this out pretty quickly. </p>

<p>Re your interest in law schools, your GPA is only a part of the equation and sometimes not even an important part. I'm not saying you can post a 2.5 and expect to get into a top law school, but I think that the adcomms are looking for more than just a grade grinder. For a top school, you're going to need the full package including LSAT, work experiences, and maybe some college ECs that could be of value in your applications. Also, the law school admissions folks are increasingly looking for students who have worked for a year or two before coming back to school (and it's more like 3-5 years or more for those going to MBA school). The point is that how you did in that freshman Western Civ class at ABC college is not going to be a critical element of their evaluation. Adcomms are looking for a progression in the development of the student and the person and the record and the potential for further growth and achievement. Clearly, you will need intellectual strength, but this can be displayed in more ways than just a simple GPA. In fact, I would say that it must be for the very best grad schools. </p>

<p>For investment banking, I suggest you have a Plan B. If you're reading the papers, it's pretty clear that Wall Street and the financial world are in one of their down cycles. Overall hiring is definitely down and, with the spread of red ink for many of the top hiring investment banks, headcounts are actually shrinking as folks get laid off. There will still be hiring as folks leave to do other things (go to MBA school, move to another firm or area of financial world, etc.), but if you thought getting one of these jobs was tough before, it promises to get worse in the next year. So, have a back-up plan because who knows how the banks will be hiring several years from now. </p>

<p>In how this relates to U Wisconsin and Northwestern, I think an individual student can have a great academic (and non-academic) experience at each of these colleges. I don't think that there is much doubt that the student body at Northwestern is superior, but that is not to say there aren't also many talented students walking around in Madison. Suffice it to say, depending on what you choose to study, you can be plenty challenged at either school. Your chances at law school will depend far more on your performance (including the LSAT and work experience) than whether you get a 3.5 GPA at one of the schools vs a 3.7 at the other. As for investment banking, Northwestern has a stronger profile and a more respected name overall and may provide you somewhat more opportunities, but it's not like U Wisconsin is not respected as well. Both (with edge to NU) might get you as far as the front door. After that, it is up to you and not the school to get the job. </p>

<p>Bottom-line, choose a school because you like it more and not because it gives you more prestige or some (perhaps inaccurately) perceived advantage in grad school admissions or postgraduate job opportunities. It's much more about you and I urge you to think where you will be the most productive and happiest for the four years because that is what really counts.</p>

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<p>You people are killing me....the OP asked in essence where he had a better chance of getting a higher GPA. I provided actual hard data and there are still arguments like "it's harder to get an A at NU". Um, if the average GPA is a 3.4, then no matter what, NU doles out A's like candy. Period. I have NO porblem believing that UW grades harder. If you want higher GPA, statistically, you have a better chance at NU than UW. Period. Question answered.</p>

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<p>tomslawsky --</p>

<p>the comparison is for <em>a given studen</em>, not "the average student at each school". The average student at each school does not campare even remotely. You assume the same caliber of student at NU and UW. Only the top 20% or so of the UW students will be the same caliber as NU.</p>

<p>Therefore, ergo, res ipsa, or whatever the word is, the top 20% at UW (or <em>any</em> NU student) will get straight As at UW. Nobody cares about UW statistics that include the bottom 80% as they are not in the comparison group.</p>

<p>Your grade data is like comparing baseball batting averages on the triple A team compared to the big league team. The top 20% of the AAA players will come up to the bigs and play well, the bottom 80% will not.</p>

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<p>Alexandre, re: my comment that the top 30% at UW will be equivalent to the average student at NU was probably optimisitic...upon further thought it is the top 20%.</p>

<p>As to your comments about Berkeley, UVA, Mich, I agree that the statistic will be different than UW. Probably the top 50% from Berkeley, 40% from Mich and UVA will be equivalent to the average student at NU.</p>

<p>Of course I pulled that data out of my $&#@, but it is probably close.</p>

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<p>Grades in college are barely 50% explained by grades and SAT scores from HS. You guys put way too much emphasis on what kids did in HS. Many kids don't give a crap about HS and don't do much. The fact is anyone with an average+ IQ can do well enough in any college if they work hard at it.</p>

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<p>HEEEEEEELP!! im new here</p>

<p>hi everyone im new here </p>

<p>so im applying for transfer to all the ivies- wharton, (except for princeton) plus georgetown and northwestern</p>

<p>i have written pretty good essays but i think i have a slim chance</p>

<p>came from horrible high school
hs gpa: 3.85
tennis captain, NHS, science club VP</p>

<p>SATs: 1840/2400</p>

<p>im in business school but iwanna do a psych major instead; sophomore applying for junior transfer</p>

<p>college gpa: 3.6; honors program
EC's: president of org, founded an org and worked on a proposal with the dean, tennis varsity, church volunteer, school newspaper editor, officer in another org,
did an internship last summer at fortune 200 company</p>

<p>good rec's from 2 deans (one was my teacher and the other was for the statement of good standing) and another from a prof who's a penn alumni.. my essays are pretty good too.. </p>

<p>let me know what you think pleasse</p>