^^
“I decided that viola-shopping is much more difficult than looking for violins”
Ye get no argument from me. {waves from shadows}
Miss you @violadad!
I am not absolutely sure you need a viola that is even in the range mentioned above. I know my son’s current viola teacher who attended conservatory in one of the top viola departments had a viola under $5000 when she was there 8 years ago. I am pretty sure that is the one she still uses while working on her grad degree. I think it is more about matching the viola to the player. My son recently bought his first one as he rented up until his Senior year in HS. Granted, we could have looked a little more than the 3 places we went, but one viola stood out. As soon as he played it the first time he knew it was the one (for now). That is not to say he might need something else down the line.
string instrument price has little to do with playing ability, there are millions of dollar stradiveri out there that are almost dead in sound, there are violins and violas out there at a modest price that play amazingly well. That doesn’t mean there isn’t some correlation between price and playing ability, it will be a lot harder to find that gem in the cheaper range then it would be if you went more upscale with price, but they can be found. Through high school my son played an old french violin from a relatively well known maker (one of the bernadel’s) that he bought from the local dealer and it was around 6k, and it had a great sound. It had its limits, and when my son went to conservatory we ended up with an old Italian violin attributed to a maker that had fantastic sound, that had it been definitively from that maker would have been twice as much and likely will carry him into his professional career, but it was in the range of a typical new car…but there were some violins half the price that had sound that wasn’t bad either.
In any event, people telling you ‘you have to spend X’ are suspect. Local string teachers are notorious for that, and that often is tied to "go to this dealer’, and the reason is a lot of teachers get kickbacks from the dealers on the instruments and the higher the price, the more they get (and the dealer jacks up the price), higher end teachers tend not to do this, my son’s HS teacher other than letting him know of dealers out there deliberately didn’t tell him what to try or how much to spend, she had a lot of bad sides to her but ethics wasn’t one of them…so be careful about anything like that.
I am not expert on violas (heck, not on violins either), but the key is to seek out a variety of places and try instruments in a variety of prices (dealers if you give them a range often will pick out instruments from across the range, and let you try them blindly). One advantage with violin dealers is if you find an instrument that stands out, they generally allow you to ‘check the instrument out’, basically take it home and try it in real world usage which makes sense. It can be frustrating and tiring, sometimes you hit paydirt on the first shot, others it is a slog (with my S’s current instrument, my wife logged a lot of miles with him, as did I, went through a lot of trials, more than a few trips to Philadelphia with the instrument he ultimately bought…Keep in mind that instruments are like teachers, what works for one person , has the sound they want, is someone else’s “I don’t like it, it is too bright”, “too chocolate”, etc so find what works for you.
Piggybacking on this: my daughter looked for her viola for three years, visiting every dealer in NY, Philadelphia, and Chicago, plus a few other cities, and many of them multiple times. She also visited many makers–and tried instruments that were flown to NY (a common practice). She has friends who work for dealers, and they were on the lookout for new inventory, as well. She had more than a dozen (probably dozens, actually) out on trial. Late this summer I dragged her to a shop in New Jersey, a small place without a huge inventory. Her expectations were low…and that’s where she found her instrument. Because instruments are one-of-a-kind, two “identical” instruments from the same maker, same year, same dimensions can sound different. And the older an instrument gets, the more likely it will diverge from others like it. Add to that differences that will come from string changes, soundpost adjustments, and other small changes. And then there is the matter of an instrument that may not have been played in a a while “opening up”, and the matter of the player becoming familiar with the instrument. The phrase “looking for a needle in a haystack” kept playing through my head during this search.
That said, I would not agree that there is no correlation between price and sound. That’s just not true, although it is true that there are Strads, Amatis, and other well-known instruments out there that are hard to play, or not particularly pleasing. But for so-called "fine"instruments–i.e., handmade instruments by recognized makers, value is more closely aligned to factors outside of the instrument’s sound: its value as an antique or object of art/craftsmanship, its condition, its ability to command a market price, etc. Some instruments with high value rest in collections and are never played. So, value does not completely correlate to sound. But don’t expect to get the same color palatte and richness from a $5k student instrument, or a 2016 maker’s instrument as you will from an excellent old instrument.
@glassharmonica:
I agree totally that the value of an instrument is with factors outside the sound of it, as in the example with my son’s instrument, had it been an authenticated instrument from the maker it is attributed to, it would have been worth double because of the collector’s value. My point was that the price of an instrument doesn’t necessarily correlate to better playing. Will a 5k modern instrument or upper level factory instrument play as well as a a vuillaume? Not very likely, but a 5k instrument could play better than a 20k one, the price of that 20k one may be based on someone thinking it is the ‘next collectible’ rather than on its sound. My son’s old violin ended up having tremendous sound , it was an old instrument, but was 6k at a local violin shop because it had come out of an estate sale, it was a known maker but not particularly collectible at the time, and it needed some work to make it work right, it hadn’t been repaired properly at one point, and once that was done and it opened up it had really good sound…my point is that a 30k violin may not play better than a 15k one, that is the correlation I was talking about, people who say “spend 15k on a viola” are assuming a 15k instrument will play better than a 10k or 5k.
A young modern make might be selling their violins for 20k, and they could be playing as well as top level modern instruments or older instruments costing a lot more. When Sam Sigmentowicz (and I am probably butchering his last name) started out his violins were going for 20k, these days one of his new ones is in the many hundreds of thousands and his older ones sell in the 6 figure range, because he has gotten the reputation for making great instruments.
The correlation between sound and price IMO is that as the instruments get more expensive, the odds of finding a really good one that will meet your needs will increase, and there are some bottom lines, someone looking at 1500 dollar violins is not going to find an instrument that is playing at a superior level.
What I tell people is figure out their range, and look at a spread of instruments within their price range until they find what they think will work. It might take some time to find an instrument that is a match and having a higher max price can make it easier to find something, but someone could get a violin at 15k when they may have been able to find one at 10k or 8k that actually worked better, had they looked more.
When I hear someone say “don’t look below 15k” that to me is making the claim that there is some magic to that price level and implies playing quality sets the price, and it doesn’t always. With new instruments prices can go up as a maker gets a reputation for great instruments (Sam S was one of those) and pros start buying them, but there are violins out there with good to great sound either from new makers without the reputation or makers who remained obscure who made some great instruments. Old instruments because they have been played a long time have very different sound than new ones, but what drives the price of old instruments more than sound is the collectibility, old italian violins went through the roof and that started people in the collecting game to go after violins from the 19th century, or to other countries (like Vuilliaume and the Miracourt makers)…
Did you mean Sam Zygmuntowicz? I don’t disagree that there are some great new instruments. Most are still going in the $20-$30k range, but his are a lot more expensive. Anyway, it’s hard to speak in generalities; a lot depends on where the player is him or herself.
I told you I would butcher his name:). Having looked at new instruments, most are in the 20-30k range as you say, his instruments are going in the 6 figure range because he has gotten a reputation that his instruments are top notch, and given the price of old instruments have gone through the roof musicians are looking for instruments that can match the old guard but not cost millions…
And yep, it does depend on the player. My son’s old violin, the french one, got him through high school, it does depend on playing level. The old instrument had physical limitations that made playing advanced repertoire difficult, when his playing had advanced to a certain level it basically ‘ran out of gas’…he was lucky with his current instrument, he thinks it likely will handle a professional career, it has that kind of sound on it. One of the things about the old instruments IMO is that people might think you give someone a fine old instrument, and it will turn someone into a great player, and the reality is that a modest violin likely will make that player look better. My S got to play an Amati from like 1690 at the violin shop be bought his current violin from, and he said it was really, really difficult, he also got a chance to play a strad or two here or there, and he said they all are wonderful instruments , but they are willful and stubborn and have their own way of doing things:)
In reality there is no science to it, as anyone who has gone for a new instrument will attest, it is more like perseverence, shoe leather and a lot of debating and wondering if this one really sounded better than that one, does this one have a buzz in it, does that one seem to squeak more on high position notes, is this one more responsive then that one, can be as bad or worse of figuring out where to go:)
I completely disagree with the proposition the you can not consider the luthier’s craft when considering an instrument. Just because your kid sounds the same on an expensive instrument as a less expensive one doesn’t mean that the more expensive instrument Is overpriced. That’s not right.
One of the great problems with finding the right instrument is that a lot of judgement is made in the first five minutes of playing it. That only can tell you how the instrument works fresh in your hands. The real test can come while playing the third act of Tristan. It’s not just about how the instrument sounds, but how it plays and how it plays after grueling day long rehearsals and whether it makes your hands tired or your ears hurt. It’s not just about the player, especially a student, it’s often about properly dried wood and just the right varnish.
Look, I’ve spent my life playing electric instruments and in the recording studio you can make a pawn shop guitar sound like a million bucks, but go try and play a two and a half hour stadium show with one - nobody does that. I’ve learned with my daughter that the same goes for classical instruments, which have to endure humidity and altitude changes and nasty airline employees. It’s not correct to say that price is all about reputation etc.,. Quality of construction does matter even if you can’t hear it.
It’s even more complicated if you consider how changes to the set-up of an instrument can affect its sound. My daughter recently purchased (with our help) a viola that she had out on trial for months and had quite a bit of work done on it (by the shop itself, and a new bridge by a different shop, with their approval) and tried out many different combos of strings. All this before purchasing. It was best viola she’d found, but the voice was too small for a large hall. (She also has a louder, modern viola that has a less nuanced sound that will work for some composers, in some circumstances.) After months (she found it in late summer following a 2-year search and the purchase was in January) she finally decided this was the one. Coincidentally, this viola was made within a few years of her violin, also 18c.) Her needs are probably more demanding than some, but it’s just an example of what one goes through and how changes can effect the sound of an instrument. BTW, even very old instruments can vary in playability. My daughter tried, for fun, a $5M Strad violin with a $2M bow and, in her words, the instrument practically “played itself.” She tried a $400K Amati viola recently at the same shop and found it had a small, pinched sound, not at all what she was looking for. Could that instrument have improved with some “fiddling”–neck reset, new bridge, etc? Maybe, but not near our price range, so she didn’t pause.
Makes me glad my D is a vocalist and just needs to drink a lot of tea! Of course there are always colds and err…that time of the month to deal with…but no expensive instrument. Whew.
@jb1966:
There is something with string instruments that enters into all this that isn’t true for a lot of others, and that is that string instruments are not just musical instruments, but they are also collectors items. It isn’t that the luthier’s craft doesn’t matter, but rather that the price of an instrument is not just based on how well it plays, it would make sense but with string instruments that isn’t always true (the luthier my son has used in NYC, who is old guard, trained at the old Wurlitzer shop, when his son talked about the wood, the setup, etc said “It was the luthier” in a tone where you better not say no lol). Put it this way, tests on modern instruments both with audience members and musicians, blind tests, have shown them not able to tell the difference between a 6 million dollar strad and a modern instrument that costs like 50k…the reason the strad goes for that much is they are collectors items, and as those have become more and more ridiculous along with Guanieri’s, collectors are looking for the ‘next big thing’ (recently, someone tried to auction off a Stradiveri Viola with a ridiculous reserve like 50 million on it, no one would touch it). My S’s violin is from a known Italian maker, it is about 100 years old, has gorgeous sound and is good enough to be his professional instrument if that time comes, but because it was ‘attributed to’ rather than had the chain of authenticity (which is not always so clear either), it was half what it would have been if it had been proven to be his. That doesn’t mean an expensive instrument doesn’t play well, a lot of them do, it is that the price of an instrument doesn’t indicate necessarily it plays that much better than a cheaper one, it could be the name means you pay more for basically the same sound a more modest priced violin had.
The thing that makes instrument buying difficult is much the same thing as a teacher, it is very individual (violins have a lot in common with many violin teachers, can be old and cranky!), an instrument player A loves is difficult to play for player B, Player C thinks Player A’s violin sounds like it is being played through a wool rug, B thinks A’s violin sings. Arnold Steinheardt had a funny story when he got his last violin (it was a Storioni I believe, that weirdly had a strad neck on it, go figure, he swapped with someone else), and his claim was the violin after playing all those years with all those musicians that it gets a mind of its own, and you have to learn to negotiate with it, my son has played several ‘top end’ violions and he said they could be stubborn, said one reminded him of trying to reason with a cat. And yep, things like ease of playing come to mind, you may be able to play an instrument and get incredible sound from it but it takes a lot of work, won’t be worth it.Technique matters, too, someone with modest technique could possibly get decent sound out of top violin, Itzak Perlman could play a modest violin and make it sing (obviously, wouldn’t sound like him on a strad or whatnot).
The other problem of course is setup, you might be playing a great instrument but because the bridge is wrong, the soundpost is too short (or long, the finger board is shot, the belly is cracked, the chin rest it has isn’t compatible,etc) you may not get great sound, yet it could be a honey, and it can be hard to figure out is the instrument good and needs work, or is it simply a not great sounding instrument, and there is no science to that. You would figure a dealer would fix obvious defects, but they don’t want to spend money on that, so there is another place where you don’t know. Likewise, an instrument that hasn’t been played in a while is going to change over time, open up as the wood changes in reaction to being played, my son’s violin came from an estate, it hadn’t been played in a while, and while it had a sweet sound, within a year of playing it turned into a honey.
I can only talk about how we went about it, we figured out a budget of how much we could spend, with some wiggle room, and when talking to dealers and luthiers looked at instruments within the range we had set, asked to hear them without knowing the price, and seeing which sounded best. My S then took them out to try for a week or so, and compared the instruments (usually he would have one from dealer A he thought was the best, B that was the best), and kept comparing until it narrowed down. My rule of thumb is that it tends to be easier to find a better playing instrument if your budget can go higher, that hypothetically it is a lot easier to find a good instrument at 25k then at 10k, might take a lot longer at 10k (at the lower price levels FWIW, the price generally is proportional to the playing ability, since they likely are not going to be name makers that collectors look for at that level) to find something decent, that the student can play. My S found some instruments at a lower price range then what he ultimately bought that he is pretty sure would have done okay for him, but we had the funds and the instrument he bought just seemed to be a level above the others, if we didn’t have the money he would have selected one of the cheaper instruments.
Good point about the antique value affecting price. My daughter’s “new” old viola came in at about 1/2 of what it would normally cost because it has a large crack in the back that does not affect the sound. But it affects is value as a collector item. These are the situations in which the musician lucks out. Collectors drive up the cost of old instruments and often keep them out of circulation so that they are not even played.
@glassharmonica:
sadly, that is true. Some of the foundations and investors who buy these instruments lend them out to musicians, but more than a few of the ‘great’ violins from Stradiverius, Guaneri, Guadagnini, Vuilliame et al end up in collections where they sit in a vault waiting for them to appreciate. The only good news about this is perhaps with these instruments out of circulation other instruments will be discovered and played, whether modern makers or older, unknown ones). Almost every dealer I have worked with has said that based on sound alone that there is a limitation to the price range, which also is an advantage to musicians, the value of a violin or whatnot will only go so high based on sound quality. The downside is that collectors now are looking at alternatives to the strads and whatnot, so what was once a violin based on sound from an italian maker 100 years ago that cost 25, 30 grand, today is fetching double that because collectors are looking for bargains that will become the next strad, etc. It is a particular burden of the string world, interestingly, you don’t see that with other instruments, with a clarinet not that many years ago you could get a top of the line Buffet professional for about 6k, and because the sound doesn’t vary much it is much more of a consumer product (I am sure there are rare clarinets that sell for millions, but from the clarinetists I have known there isn’t the same kind of thing as with string instruments).
This topic is interesting on several levels. First, I have two children who play (cello and viola + piano) and we are looking into a full-sized instrument for the cellist soon. We don’t know how serious she is as a musician so the question is how much to spend. I have been toying with the idea of getting an investment grade instrument both for the investment in the cellist and the financial investment. Has anyone bought a musical instrument as a financial investment?
Secondly, I “play” bass (poorly but make up for it in quantity) and recently bought a 1800’s German bass. I bought it partially as an investment but also just because. It is appraised for over twice the purchase price and that is what it is insured for. Some of you are saying you paid about 1/2 the value of the instrument. What are you insuring the instrument for (purchase or appraised value)? If I finally admit defeat, I may loan out the instrument. Everything I’ve read is string instruments need to be played regularly to maintain its sound and value.
Finally, everything is somewhat relative. It seems cellos are generally more expensive than violins and violas, and basses are even more expensive. Grand pianos start at $10k.
@BassCadet, the viola I bought is insured at its appraised value, which is slightly higher than what we paid for it. Ditto with all our other instruments. But when I say it was purchased at half the value, I mean that it would be worth double if it did not have a (repaired) crack on the back. This is an instrument from the 1740’s and cost more than $60, but would be well in the six figures otherwise. When my kids were younger we certainly spent significantly less for their instruments. And yes, people do buy instruments as investments. All insurance is based on appraisal certificates.
Like with Glassharmonica, my son’s violin cost half what it would had they been able to certify it was by the maker it is attributed to (with instruments, certification of the maker is a pretty intense process, it usually involves either their being identifying marks (usually hidden inside the instrument) that make it certain or almost certain it was made by X, or chain of custody IE you can trace back the owners of the violin (this is common with instruments like Strad’s where you can trace ownership). If my son’s instrument could be definitively proven to be the person it is attributed to, it would have cost twice as much (collectors care about provence, they generally will not buy something without some sort of definitive certification). Generally you insure an instrument for what it is appraised at, which can be the purchase price from a reputable shop or from a luthier doing an evaluation. It is wise to get it re-appraised from time to time because the value could go up, for example you might buy a violin from Giovanni Boule-Puant, and then collectors ‘find’ his instruments and the price goes up:) (and yes, the name is fictitious).
With the D who is a cellist, I think it depends both on your budget and what level she is at. One of the nice things with string instruments is that unless you overpay for it (be very, very careful when teachers refer you to specific shops, for example, unless you know and trust the teacher, there is a huge scam out there where teachers send you to certain shops and get kickbacks, which means you generally overpay for the instrument, it should be illegal but it isn’t, sadly), if your D loses interest you likely down the road can sell it for at least what you paid for it.
As far as the instrument to buy, I would look more at playability, a fine old cello might be a lot more difficult to play then a more modern, modest instrument would be. It is true you could buy a cello as an investment, but to be honest I would be careful about that, if looking at an instrument as an investment you really have to understand the market for instruments and how/why they are valuable, and to make sure you don’t overpay and also future trends, and while the market for old instruments, especially from certain “Lines” (ie master makers and their students) has shown growth, you have to know a)if you are truly getting an instrument from the maker and b)that the maker in fact is someone collectors are moving into. Dealers can be shady, to be blunt, and if they get the sense you don’t know they can overcharge for an instrument that might be a nice instrument, but can sell it as an ‘investment’ and you will find it isn’t that great a deal down the road…if you do want to try as an investment, you should do your homework like with anything else, to get an idea of what you are looking for, and don’t be afraid if you are looking at an instrument to take it to an expert to see what they think to see if you are getting scammed.
I would be very circumspect about buying an instrument for the perceived investment value. One, this is far from a liquid asset. Ask anyone who has had their fine instrument on consignment for years at a reputable shop or tried to sell as an individual without extensive contacts. Two, it is best for instruments to be played. Of course, there was my friend who had an accident in an opera pit and his investment grade bow ($30,000) was suddenly valued at less than half this. Insurance is expensive on high level equipment, check into this annual cost with a specialized carrier, not your homeowner’s rider.
That said, I have known “small time” investor purchasers. One in particular comes to mind. The purchase was an authenticated Vuillaume violin, authenticated by a reputable, world-wide recognized expert. Until suddenly, the reputable expert was found to be a fraud and any number of his instrument certifications were now questionable. That instrument is now valued at significantly less than purchase price due to the uncertainty of the provenance.
Also, for younger students, consider how and where their instruments will be used. Any left in a high school orchestra room or locker? Will the cello be flown off to summer camp? Even at conservatories where many students own or have valuable instruments on loan, security shouldn’t be assumed as a given. An expensive instrument for a developing student could end up being an unecessary responsibility without the expected advantage of being a boost to the learning.
Thanks for the replies! I consider >$50k investment grade and would only buy from a reputable dealer. The story of the Vuillaume violin does give me pause, however. I guess you can never really know.
Note, I would send the student off with a serviceable instrument for school and rehearsals and maybe only use the expensive instrument for recitals.
The investment part is for diversification. We have other investments but nothing really for collectibles. For me the question is $10-25k for a modern instrument that may not retain value vs. $50k+ for an instrument that may hold its value but would require much diligence.
If you are interested in the fraud story, google Machold. The industry felt waves for several years, some who issued certificates of authenticity became much, much more conservative. If you do go this route, make certain that the authenticator has a recognized world-wide reputation. Not all reputable shops have authentications that will automatically be recognized.
It can be difficult for a student to switch between instruments as they can play very differently. I’ve known conservatory students who have received loans of very fine instruments take several months of consistent playing before they feel comfortable with an instrument. These were individuals already well developed in their skills. Glassharmonica and Musicprnt will have noticed the same with their kids and other very advanced students, pre-professionals and young professionals.
How about fine art for diversification? Of course, I know a Picasso fraud victim…