My S is looking for a new cello bow and he mentioned a shop that he might take a look at that is in the city where he is studying. Just out of curiosity I googled the shop and they listed the bows they had for sale. So I googled the names of the bow makers and a story came up about one of the bow makers (modern) who is considered to be among the top living bow makers. He had also run a string instrument shop in St. Louis and worked with many members of the St. Louis symhony. He ran into money problems and swindled many of the musicians of the orchestra. He fled the country at one time but eventually returned, pleaded guilty to many counts of federal fraud and was sentenced to 2 years in prison. Apparently his bows are still highly regarded.
That eventually led me to find the story about Machold and then a story about Gerald Segelman who was a rare instrument investor and whose estate was involved in suits involving fraud after the dissolution of the estate. The Segelman estate alleged that several dealers and investors defrauded Segelman’s charitable trust by providing low appraisals of the instruments before purchasing them, selling the instruments to one another at steep markups.
Anyway, I had no idea about all of this but there seems to be a whole fascinating dark side to the business of fine stringed instruments.
On another note, when we upgraded my S’s cello a few years ago my S tried all the cellos at a few shops that were in our price range and after a lot of time eventually found one he really liked. The employee of the shop told us that at any given time they have dozens of instruments in various price ranges that they have picked up at auctions and from estates, etc. but that are in need of repair. They repair them gradually and add them to their stock. So it made me think that they could have an instrument that you would love but you would not know it because it’s not in playable condition and they won’t show it to you.
For bows, I don’t think you can beat modern makers, in terms of bang-for-buck. I don’t mean exclusively brand-new bows, but rather bows made by living makers.
The Machold story is a great cautionary tale–Momofaudult was right to bring that up. You should always get an independent appraisal (or more than one) from reputable dealers outside of the dealer you’re dealing with. (Did I write “deal” enough in the previous sentence?)
It’s also true that these instruments, although they do appreciate quite a bit, are very much not liquid investments.
Another good point MOA makes is that conservatories often loan instruments to students–but they take them back. And it takes a while to adjust to the instrument; it can be problematic, to say the least, when a loaned instrument is recalled. Consider what happened to Dylana Jensen’s career.
For my daughter’s recent viola purchase, she had the instrument out from August through December and took it to many dealers and appraisers for opinions. She also played it for numerous mentors and colleagues–the question was whether it could be heard sufficiently in certain situations.
Asking other dealers was in part because it was a “hard to appraise” instrument-- i.e., not many of its type in existence, and the added issue of the crack on its back. It does not hurt, by the way, to cultivate friendly relationships with dealers in your hometown, if you are fortunate to live in a metro area. My daughter often visits a local dealer who is renown (you would likely know of them.) She has bought a bow or two from him, but has never bought an instrument there, although she has tried many dozens. Sometimes when they are working on an instrument they like to have certain players try it out for feedback, and she has done that. She can get an honest off-the-record opinion on instruments from him. It’s not the same as an appraisal, which is a time-consuming process that you need to pay for, but if you want a quick fly by when gathering information, it’s very valuable.
A lot of great advice, a famous shop went out of business in the city where GH lives, and some of their certifications have come into question since then, whether it was fraud or simply the person doing the certification did so without thorough research is unknown.
I also agree about an investment grade instrument and with a young musician, you may be better off with a higher levels student instrument (not talking a factory Cello). Others are correct, instruments are not a liquid asset, while they generally don’t depreciate, they can take time to sell (with some exceptions, ‘hot’ instruments like Strads and such can sell relatively quickly, because demand outstrips the supply, but even there that may not be true entirely). To be honest, I personally wouldn’t look at a string instrument as an investment because it really is a buyer beware market, and also it can be a kind of speculative investment in that you buy something because you think the maker will be the next best thing, the next strad/guarneri, and it never happens, or you find out down the road that it wasn’t made by X, but maybe an apprentice, or worse,was a copy done by another maker.
One thing to keep in mind with a student instrument, if you have a shop that you like, a lot of the times shops will have a trade in policy that when you want to move up to another instrument, they will give you credit towards the instrument you had towards more expensive one. Not all do, and this likely would not apply in the case of high end instruments, but it is worth thinking about. It may not be worth getting an expensive instrument if, as you say, she is just moving to a full size (which I assume means she is likely 11 or 12?), and it isn’t clear yet whether she will take it to a higher level moving forward, if she is as young as I assume then if her next instrument “runs out of gas”, you would have time to upgrade it, maybe by the path I suggested.
@cellomom2, you are right about the instruments that shops may be working on. Twice during my years of searching for my kids we have had two different shops show us “works in process”. One luthier/dealer wanted to cut us a deal on the instrument before it was fully restored. Kid tried it before the maker began working on it and we came back to see it while in progress. It was one of those “I think it is a So-and-so” but would never be authenticated definitively as being by the maker in question. We passed on that instrument, but about a year later was back in the shop and played it in a fully refurbished state. The instrument was a good one and would have been somewhat of a bargain if we had agreed to take it while still in restoration process. But, no regrets, we’d found another we liked better.
Another time, different shop, we were looking at a very fine, clear provenance instrument from a 20th century maker. We would have liked to wait for that one as it underwent reasonably minor restoration, but kid was in a hurry, living out of town and we found another instrument from a shop where we had dealt before. They cut us a deal we couldn’t pass on, taking the instrument they’d sold us earlier back as part trade-in. Kid (post-conservatory at that point) was moving from one “investment” quality instrument to another - shops don’t always limit their trade-up policies to student level instruments. In fact, the shop in question does not deal in student instruments at all, only “fine instruments”.
@BassCadet, we have been very lucky to have a player/dealer friend who loves to shop instruments! Although I am also a musician, having him come along to help kids and me assess right at the shop level has been a great help. It’s also provided us with an intro to various shops where I know we were quite well treated. If you can cultivate any of those relationships in your search, it is a big plus.
@Momofadult We had the same experience with our shop which has a very good reputation in our area. They will always give the full value of any previous instrument that came from their shop when you are trading up. I don’t know if we are at investment level instruments though they are quite an investment for us! but definitely above student grade.
When I said student instrument, I was talking more price range then anything else, but even with high end instruments some dealers will give trade in value, it all depends on the shop.
I’ve come to the realization that buying an investment grade instrument at this time is Not A Good Idea. Our dealer does give full trade-in value (minus repairs) so there is really no reason not to take this step by step.
Thanks again for the discussion. Much appreciated!
It’s interesting to read a discusision about violas by people who don’t play violas, but pay for violas. i guess you could carry that concept forward to include this entire site- posts about college by parents, not students. But I wonder how many of us that read and or post on this board are really considering investment grade instruments.
I would love to read a post written by a student about dealing with their parents while picking an instrument. How do we look to them? Or maybe a student to student post about how best ways to go about the process . Maybe I’ve missed the post I’m wanting to read.
How about from a dealer’s perspective. What is it like to deal with parents when their kid is on bow #25?
jb1966, not sure if you’re a student or a parent, but you make an interesting point. Most students and even young professionals are dependent on parents for financing their instruments. But not all–some don’t have supportive parents, and some have parents who are very supportive, but can’t help with financing instruments. There are ways, especially for high level players, to borrow instruments; there are strategies for financing. But that doesn’t get discussed much. I’d love to hear the perspectives you mention, as well, including how dealers deal with parents.
@glassharmonica:
I am sure most kids will roll their eyes when you mention parents lol.
As far as financing strategies, one thing I can interject is with string instruments, you generally can get really, really good rates from some financial institutions because they understand that with string instruments in particular, they don’t depreciate, so they consider it a collateralized loan, more like a house then a car. In NYC the federal actors credit union is supposed to have really good rates because of that, I was thinking of that if we needed to go that route with my son, someone I know works there and she told me about their program with instruments. Might not be true at other banks and such, might be wise if someone decides to borrow to buy an instrument to educate the bank or financial institution on this.
I’m a parent and have been a professional musician most of my life and I don’t think kids roll their eyes too much about five figure instruments paid for by parents that are already under a lot of financial stress paying for their college. My daughter saw her instrument purchase as more of a business investment, like my basses, but I wonder how other kids see it. And for parents that can’t tell a good instrument from a bad one by listening - taking such a huge leap of faith when they pay for these things,I just wonder (weird, fantastic and digressing stories aside) what people really think about all this.
I’m not a musician and my daughter has taken my role in her instrument searches very seriously–she’d never roll her eyes at me. I always defer to expert ears before any decision is made–and we have never made decisions lightly. I guess every situation is different.
When I mentioned rolling their eyes, I meant how kids react to the word parent in general, not about buying an instrument and so forth, it was meant to be humorous, especially when kids are in the middle of being teenagers. I have seen some entitled kids who would roll their eyes that their parents weren’t buying a 100k instrument or thought that was no big deal, but most kids in music especially know the sacrifices the parents are making, are well aware of it (to give you contrasts,we were in the weird position where we were encouraging our son to get the more expensive instrument both he and we thought sounded and played better and he was the one trying to be conservative, on the other hand there was a classmate of my son’s who was complaining that his parents had cut the amount the would pay for his living expenses (I am talking outside rent, mind you) down to an amount most of us would find pretty generous,to say the least).
I come from a long line of eye rollers and horse thieves. I have noted my D is quite accomplished at it. I don’t think it’s anything in particular that I do…I think it just me in general. Eye roll.
@bridgenail, where do you keep all the horses? :))
Sigh
@jb1966 It sounds as if you are irritated with the line of discussion. So I will answer your question seriously:
I doubt there are many parents who take a “huge leap of faith” even when their ears are not as sophisticated as yours. Most parents who are involved at this level have been researching and learning the music world for a dozen years or more before they invest significantly in instruments. I know dozens of parents who have helped their offspring buy instruments but have not met anyone who approaches the journey with a cavalier attitude. I grew up in the classical music world (and studied music, but am not a professional musician.) I have the humility and common sense to listen carefully to my daughter and to the advice she seeks from her mentors. We helped our daughter buy an instrument recently. The search took two years and spanned several cities. The final instrument was on trial for months–there was a bit of work done on it to open up the sound–and my daughter (who is not a child; she has a masters degree at this point) carefully sought opinions from trusted teachers, colleagues, and an independent appraiser. We probably put more effort into that than some, but every parent I know who goes through this process takes it seriously. (This was not the first instrument we’ve bought, more like the 20th, since we have four kids, but it was a step-up professional instrument, which we paid for with a disbursement of our retirement funds; our daughter will eventually pay it back, but for now it’s a valuable tool to help her progress in her career. )
Maybe it’s different for families with different dynamics… our kids started with low budget rental instruments when neither they nor DH-and-I could tell the difference. As they progressed, we listened to our teachers, and purchased instruments with lots of input and education. When D2 (very petite) was at the point of purchasing a small viola in middle school, for example, it turned out that her cheap 14 inch Romanian rent-to-own instrument matched the sound quality of instruments priced 5-6 times higher in blind tests, so her teacher just shrugged and told us we’d lucked out. Later, we worked with her to purchase a “forever” viola that has served her well through HS and college, and as a serious amateur musician. She probably could benefit from a better instrument at this point, but since music is a pleasure rather than a career for her, any upgrades will be her responsibility.
D3 fell in love with a beautiful French 3/4 violin that allowed her playing to mature incredibly at the same age; her teacher agreed with me that it was more expensive than we were targeting (but not by that much), and it was clear to all of us that this was the right match of instrument and student. Since then, there have been 4-5 instruments, but at that point as parents we recognized that our input (other than the amount we were willing to invest) serves as secondary data on the purchase. She has been incredibly gracious at listening to the opinions of relatives with varying levels of musical background and “hearing” their perceptions of different instruments.
All their peers had similar experiences. I remember sitting in on a middle school orchestra rehearsal when one violinist showed up with a new instrument and his friends asked to try it out. “Sorry,” he replied, “The insurance hasn’t come through yet.” What other group of 12 year olds would have understood that? 