How to find match/reach schools when student's stats are all over the place?

Parents Forum
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<p>Okay, I know this is long, but maybe the information I give, will help someone give me advice which I really, really need. It might be better suited for the College Search forum, but I promised my son some help, so I need some now. Thanks for reading it if you make it to the end. My son is a rising senior and next month he is supposed to give his college counselor a list of at least 10 colleges he is planning to apply to, 3 safeties, 3 reaches and 4 matches. She’d like 12, bumping the matches to 6. He’s currently doing an internship out of town, then an engineering summer program and then I’ll have him for a week before he leaves for National Jamboree. So I need some ideas and suggestions for us to look at during that week. We’ve got the safeties pinned down so our problem is for the matches and reaches. I see no reason to waste the resources on a reach school that is not even a remote possibility. The problem is his stats are all over the board. His counselor said to match based on test scores, but even those are all over the place. I don’t want to shortchange him, but at the same time, we don’t want to waste time and money applying where he has no chance. His college counselor had him copy recommended undergraduate programs in engineering out of Rugg’s Recommendations (a book I’m not familiar with) and told him to consider Group II schools which are billed as Very Selective, but I don’t think his GPA is there. Yet she knows his situation, including the aid need, she is being constantly wooed by other schools, has an excellent track record and our kids get into some amazing schools. Does she know something I don’t? There are schools in this book I’ve never heard of, even the Most Selective Group 1 contains schools I’ve never heard of and it’s the smallest. He will need major financial aid. I have another in college now so I’m familiar with the aid process and know where we stand based on both the FASFA and the Profile for private schools. (it was much easier with his sister, she had a GPA, ACT & SAT scores all in line with each other, a very narrow major and a very specific location area and school preferences).
Stats
SAT I: Math 710, CR 620, CW 610
SAT 2 has not taken will probably take calculus and physics next fall
ACT Composite 29, English 24, Math 30, Reader 29, Science 32, Combined English/Writing 22
He took the essay portion of both tests, a 6 on the ACT essay and I think a 7 or 8 on the SAT</p>

<p>He will be retaking both tests next fall, since neither is clearly the better for him, our college counselor will want both redone. As you can see it’s the writing/English portion that is a cause for concern. It’s quite possible he can get 30 or better on the ACT but I bet it will be the math/science portion that improves. I can see him possible getting close to 800 on the math SAT but if we see any improvement in CR & CW it will be very small. At SMU, the engineering chair referred to this as the engineering slide, said they see it a lot and unless there is a big disparity between Math and Writing it was not a concern. He told my son a 600 in CR CW wasn’t bad, that often they saw a 700 in math and scores in the 500’s for the other. My son has a friend who was told something similar by UT Austin, but I’m not sure how much the departments have to do with admissions. </p>

<p>He attends a small very rigorous school (in our area at least), the best around, a 45 minute drive to and from every day. A smaller number of course choices, but all core and most electives are only offered with a Pre-AP/AP option or a college prep option (I’m guessing this is a honor level, it’s supposed to prepare a student to take the class in college and pass without any remedial level work) I’m not sure, as he does PreAP/AP classes. The only classes that are not PreAP or AP classes would be Computer Science 1, 2, and 3, next year will be AP Computer Science 4 and his two fine arts classes. We weight only AP classes with 6 points, no other classes, and stripping out the AP points doesn’t lower his grade to the next level, so his weighted and un-weighted GPA is the same at this point. With only 40 to 50 students in a senior class we don’t rank and a numerical GPA out of 100 is shown on his transcript. However finding out that colleges use the 4.0 scale I went in and calculated with 3.0 for 80-89 and 4.0 for 90 and up. The problem is that while on a scale of 100 he has an A-, around a 92, we don’t have a finalized transcript for junior year yet, we had a major personal family tragedy right at the end of his 8th grade year that severely affected his freshman year (I am amazed he did as well as he did) and while he’s had a major upward trend those freshman grades did not do his GPA any favor. No c’s but if I’m doing it correctly.<br>
9th grade GPA 3.25
10th grade GPA 3.5
11th grade GPA 3.85 (there is a slight possibility he will end up with a 4.0, I stripped off the 6 points for AP English which gives him an 89 in the class. At our school the AP exam grade counts as the final exam which then counts as 15% of the final grade, so if by some fluke he pulls off a 5 in AP English, giving him 100 for the final exam that should raise is average enough so that when I pull off the 6 points he’ll still have an A in the class)
So his 12th grade schedule is AP English Lit, AP Calculus AB, double block AP Physics, AP Computer Science and Theology. His college counselor requested he have a study hall to work on college apps, so no elective, but colleges won’t consider his senior grades for admit (except for unusual cases), his senior grades will stay up to par, both because that’s how he is and our school has penalties for seniors whose grades drop badly but probably won’t help. </p>

<p>So we’re looking at a GPA of 3.53 by my calculations, which is not too good I know.</p>

<p>His EC’s should be very good by all but the most strict Ivy standards, they’re not all over, but concentrated in a few areas with multi-year (6-plus) involvement, leadership, participation, workshops, seminars and camps, both attending and leading/teaching, awards and competitions, heavy in the math/science areas. Plus a paid internship this summer, R&D dept computer field, that the company actually provided him with a great experience, not a grunt work internship, work on actual projects and the chance to work on a few projects of his own interest/devising. Volunteer work/community service way above and beyond that required by the school. </p>

<p>Recommendations, again excellent, both because he’s been at the school since 5k, in addition he’s an all around nice kid, pleasant, cheerful hard worker, always willing to go the extra mile or help someone out</p>

<p>He wants an engineering program, hasn’t decided on type, interested in both a dual degree and/or master program. More of a tech/research school as opposed to a liberal arts program. He’s had 2 years of Pre-AP French which was a struggle and helped kill his GPA, so a college that requires foreign language in college is a definite no. </p>

<p>So, do I match with the lowest denominator which is the 3.5 GPA. I thought about that, but then we run the risk of a mediocre program with no challenge which he’s more than capable of. He is much less concerned about name brand than the quality of the program. When he thinks about the future, he sees himself being more in research and development than actually day to day field work, but of course that is likely to change. He genuinely likes school. </p>

<p>Do I match by test scores? If so, the low test score? </p>

<p>Do I try to match a little above and a little below, say maybe a 3.7 GPA with a 550-625 SAT and just ignore the 700 Math. </p>

<p>And then once we get the matches, how do I look for reaches. Is any school with a mid-range GPA of above a 3.5 considered a reach for him?</p>

<p>We picked safeties by GPA where a 3.5 is in the top range, which puts him way above test score wise, but I assume that’s how the safety schools are supposed to work. </p>

<p>We need help and guidance badly. We are spending hours poring over literature and websites but we are getting nowhere and are running out of time.
Thanks in advance</p>

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<p>Is there a preference for region? It shouldn’t be too hard to come up with a list for engineering schools and you say your safeties are set so you only need matches and reaches? You are correct that if he’s in the upper end of the admitted students GPA wise that is a safety but safety also implies cost. Are the safeties you’ve identified financial doable - if so, then yes you just need to identify matches/reaches.</p>

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<p>This counselor is not giving you good advice. GPA is more important than test scores, so matching to test scores is not a good idea. You have to look at the full picture. Knowing where his GPA puts him in terms of rank is critical information.</p>

<p>She wants 12 schools, again, this may be necessary in some cases but I hope she is not encouraging every kid to apply to 12 colleges.</p>

<p>Are you seeking need based aid or merit? That will also be crucial to help you. Many of the schools strong in engineering are not schools that meet need, so this will mean being a financial safety as well as an admissions safety will make this search more complicated.</p>

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<p>The improving GPA trend is excellent. If he can nail all A’s in the fall (sometimes tough with all of the college apps etc), that would help too.</p>

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<p>mom of three boys:
He originally expressed a desire to close in region, Texas, south etc… not a big fan of snow and cold, but different culture, but lately has decided that if it’s necessary for a good program he may need to consider a broader region, Yes, his safeties are also financially doable as well. One is a private university he has done some robotics at and a S.T.E.M. weekend. I’d say engineering students make up half their enrollment, it started as a place to train engineers and workers for the company it’s associated with, evolved into a university, they offer aeronautical science majors, engineering majors, w/business and education majors thrown into the mix and I believe they are starting a nursing major in conjunction with another school in order to up the females on campus and fill a need for nursing training. He’s full Pell eligible, ACG Grant, w/his 3.5 GPA and SAT scores he qualifies for their second tier of merit aid, he should qualify for TPEG based on my experience w/his sister, plus they have some institutional and STEM grant money and work study. The other 2 are state universities which should also be okay in the money department. No UT Austin or A&M College Station, which with the top 10% rule (will be top 8% fall 2011) rules those out. So we should be okay for safeties. The thing is, I’d like matches and reaches to also be financially doable, what’s the point of getting in if you can’t go. </p>

<p>The sad thing is, mostly his B’s aren’t low, French is an exception, English mid level, but a lot of 88’s & 89’s on his transcript, I calculated 3.0 whether it was an 82 or an 89. I know some schools do 3.5 for an 85 etc…, but I think colleges don’t do that, correct. However that said, another mom at our school mentioned that some colleges add half a point for honors and AP classes, so a 3.0 becomes a 3.5 for a lot of our students. If that is truly the case then that would raise his GPA a fair amount, because out of 32 classes he’ll have a graduation, 17 will be honors/AP classes. Perhaps that is one of the things we’ll discuss when we start having counselor meetings. </p>

<p>redroses
As to the number of applications, she may want 12 from my son, due to the financial circumstances, but 8 to 10 is the standard expected of all teachers. She is editing essays and resumes over the summer, we got an email we would be getting those back so we can make the revisions in the next 3 weeks. That’s basically all she’ll do from August till December is get each senior through the process. All apps are supposed to be in the mail or submitted before Christmas break.</p>

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<p>Oooh many of the good engineering schools are in the cold weather states (the engineering programs grew up with the industrial/manufacturing base a century ago). Anyway… Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, Clemson could be considered for the list for warmer climates and if he wants to stay west of the Mississippi Colorado College of Mines. For cold weather perhaps Case Western Reserve, Purdue, RPI, or Rose-Hulman. Carnegie-Mellon would be a reach but is in this caliber of nationally known engineering programs. Michigan has one of the best engineering programs but is very competitive and the college as a whole puts much weight on the GPA. Michigan is also very expensive. Illinois also tends to pop up in threads but I have no knowledge (my company doesn’t recruit engineers there). I’ve heard decent things about New Mexico and Arizona (warm) but again isn’t on my company’s recruiting list so I don’t have any knowledge.</p>

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<p>Momofthree boys - I think some of those schools you listed might require a higher GPA. How about Arizona State? Are we at 12 yet?</p>

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<p>Glido he/she’s looking for matches and reaches and has the safeties figured out. Most of those I mentioned are either matches or reaches for her/his son. If you look at the son’s classes and the school I’m not convinced the colleges will view this one as a 3.5, he’s got a boatload of AP classes. If he shows up next month with a list that GC thinks is too reachy I’m guessing the GC will speak up. The student is at a private school and they generally have pretty engaged GCs.</p>

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<p>I think they will weight the honors classes and his GPA will end up being higher.</p>

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<p>^^My thought, also. The OP is smart to look at this conservatively, but agree that there is no need to shoot low since there are safeties in place. The OP isn’t thinking CalTech or MIT I don’t believe and there is really no need to IMHO. If you look at the stats for engineering schools the OP’s son isn’t that far off and one never knows whether college reported GPAs are weighted or unweighted and of course colleges REPORT the highest possible numbers they can so I always assume the colleges are reporting weighted if they don’t specify. Same with the class rankings, if you are at a competitive high school being in the top quartile carries more clout than being in the top 10% at a lesser school. I saw a very solid student for many engineering schools with perhaps the exception of MIT and Caltech and Mudd in the OPs report with rising GPA which all colleges like to see. I also assumed that the OP was very familiar with their in-state options, probabaly wasn’t considering California based on other posts and was more interested in other regions of which I’m the least informed about any engineering schools in the upper NE so made no comments. But the OP can chime in if desiring more options or more definition as to region/wants/needs.</p>

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<p>Trust the guidance counselor. She knows who has gone where from your son’s school and knows what the other kids’ recommendations, grades, and scores were. There probably is not another person with such knowledge.</p>

<p>Also keep in mind that colleges have regional admissions people. Those small private schools make sure that the admissions peope are well informed about their schools. Part of what you are paying for is college counseling. You obviously have input, but listen to the counselor; then do what you want.</p>

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<p>I’m going to go against the trend. I’m pretty optimistic about his chances. If you’ve got two safeties (that really and truly are safe and that you can afford) I think you can reasonably be fairly optimistic about the rest of his applications. First, your GC seems to be optimistic about how his GPA will be judged. So am I, many schools discount freshmen grades all together and many will at least be understanding about lower grades freshman year. Second, he’s looking at engineering schools and his math and science grades, activities and scores are all in line. Third, verbal scores in the 600s is really not bad, especially for a guy, and most especially for an engineering guy. I think you should look at matches and reaches assuming an A- average. He should also look and see if there are any EA schools that interest him - the best safety in my opinion is getting into a school in early December! I also don’t think you have to have matches. You just have to have safeties you are willing to attend.</p>

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<p>I agree that many matches will be in a colder climate. Check out Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Rennselear Polytechnic Institute, University of Pittsburgh.</p>

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<p>Thanks, I’m hearing some helpful advice here. Momofthreeboys, you mentioned a couple of schools that were on our radar, case western and RPI have both been sending him tons of information and I think one of them is the one sending this nifty little puzzle thing that goes together a piece at a time, each piece contains different facts about the school which is certainly intriguing my son, so they have a good hook there. </p>

<p>I’m am nearly 100% sure (never say completely sure) he would be accepted and get the aid we need at his 3 safeties. I’m not saying he would be thrilled there, but he would certainly not be miserable. We’ve been to all, he’s done a robotics camp and a STEM weekend at the private, a RISE/DIVE summer program at UT Tyler, was invited back this year w/a scholarship and offered a chance to do a robotics project with the head of the (I think) mechanical engineering dept. He’s there now actually I dropped him off today. Texas Tech we’ve visited and he was the only engineering kid there that day so the dean dropped in to speak to him. I must say the school was nothing like I imagined. It is actually much prettier than I dreamed a tech school would be. Anyway the dean saw his transcript, and his SAT scores, I don’t think his ACT scores where in when we went. He was quite sure we wouldn’t have any problem getting in and the engineering dept seems to have money of it’s own too. </p>

<p>UT Tyler would be the least of his safeties, but his grandfather lives there and if there was just no money, he could always stay there (and he gets along fine with his Gdad, so no issues there) plus they told him with this stats he should consider the freshman year there and transfer to UT Austin.</p>

<p>Yes, I know UT Austin and A&M both have what is supposed to some of the better engineering schools in Texas, but because of their size he never considered them, he didn’t think he wanted a huge school. Plus our GC told us 2011 top 8%, so depending on who comes back senior year only 3 or 4 kids at most guaranteed. They weren’t on our radar at all so I wasn’t worried. BUT (always a but) son came back from internship in Austin and loves the town, so now wants to consider UT Austin. I’m thinking he’s a reach there just due to the guaranteed admit thing not leaving that many spaces. So I’m emailing GC tomorrow. We don’t rank, (but of course the kids know who’s who) but the GC is forced to note on those that want in that are guaranteed admit. That said, we have quite a few actually get in and attend. I’m not sure why, to be truthful both UT Austin and A&M have never appealed to me. I’m leery of adding the school to his list, because he’s my boy, I know him and I think he’d be lost at a school that large. Its the cool things in the big city that appealed to him, and I’m pretty sure I can help him find a smaller school in a cool city he’d fit at better. </p>

<p>And it’s true I’m counting on the GC to steer us along, we are blessed there and I try to pass the information I learn about the application process along to parents we know who are not as fortunate. I owe the school a lot for making it possible for son to stay there when the bottom dropped out. He loves it, daughter knew it was the best place for her and that she owes it alot, but she’s an art child, she can’t love any place that forces her to learn math and science. (that said, they got her scores where needed to start at college level in math and science and she got that yucky stuff out of the way freshman year with only a small amount of drama) Both will hopefully be in a position to give back to their HS when the time comes. </p>

<p>All that to say, So I’m confident with the safeties, we’re working on the others. That said he’s in the top of his safety school stats. I want most of his matches to be strong matches, but she’s going to want me to encourage him to stretch a little and I don’t want him to think I don’t think he can do it. As to reaches he’s interested in Rice, the aid is good, so that’s a possibility. I don’t see anyway he can pull 700’s in CR & CW so I told him he needs a 31/32 ACT 33 would be nice, but math and science can only get him so far. With good SAT II in math and science and History would be a high school SAT II if they wanted a non-science and he pulled all A’s w/a possible B in that AP English Lit next year and Rice would look at a mid-term report, he might have a shot. We do have alumni there, though I’m not sure that will help much. But that still leaves me 1 or 2 reaches (I’m not sure where UT Austin would fall, if he really wants to follow through). Cornell was actually on my “we might consider this as a reach list”, it’s still stretchy, but it might be a shot. I really wanted a 30 or better on the June ACT, but no joy. </p>

<p>Thanks and once again, I know I’m long-winded, maybe it’s a Texas thing.</p>

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<p>Case is known for superb merit scholarships. But I’ve read a lot of disappointment about their Financial Aid. Although my son did not click there, I thought there was a lot to like about the school.</p>

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<p>Sorry but from our experience Case’s merit aid is in line with other top schools but not exceptional.</p>

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<p>To the OP,
If you’re in state for Texas, don’t rule out A & M. Even if a student isn’t in top 10 or 8% he can be an academic admit with a 1300 M + V.</p>

<p>[Academic</a> Admits](<a href=“http://admissions.tamu.edu/freshmen/gettingin/waysAdmitted/academic.aspx]Academic”>http://admissions.tamu.edu/freshmen/gettingin/waysAdmitted/academic.aspx)</p>

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<p>I agree with those who are optimistic about the OP’s son’s chances. These are quite strong credentials. Don’t rely on the HS’s weighting of GPA; most selective colleges use unweighted GPA, because weightings aren’t equal across schools. With lots of AP and honors classes in the bank at a highly competitive high school, he’ll get credit for academic rigor and his GPA will be read in that context. The upward trend in GPA is a strong plus. Some schools don’t consider freshman grades at all, while others will discount them significantly if the grades in later years are better, as his are. Averaging his 10th & 11th grade GPA brings it to about a 3.7; as long as the first semester senior grades are comparable (or ideally even better), GPA is quite strong and will only help at most colleges. As for test scores, the SAT is slightly better than the ACT; according to the official SAT-ACT concordance, his 1330 SAT CR+M translates to a 30 ACT. That’s about the 92nd percentile of college-bound seniors. And for a prospective engineering major it helps that these somewhat lopsided scores are stronger on the math side (94th percentile). I’d urge that he consider the Math 2 SAT II as many engineering schools require a Math subject test for admission, and Math 2 is not only more impressive insofar as it covers higher math, but the curve is actually far more generous; there’s just less margin for error on the Math 1 test, where a careless arithmetic error or two can kill the score. A lot is going to depend on his SAT II scores, especially in math & science; if they’re strong, those lowish freshman year HS grades will probably be overlooked, and your S could be a very competitive applicant at most schools. </p>

<p>As for schools, I’d say even as highly regarded an engineering school as Carnegie Mellon, while a bit reachy, is not unrealistic for him to aim at. He definitely should apply to UT and Texas A&M, even though the former is a reach. I don’t know as much about A&M, but by test scores he’s already in the top quartile there in math and high second quartile in CR, so that sounds pretty match-y to me. Some other strong engineering schools he might consider: Purdue, Wisconsin-Madison, Va. Tech, Minnesota (comparatively low OOS tuition pegged at in-state rate + $4K), RPI, listed from top in order of their U.S. News engineering school ranking (all these are ranked #23 or higher). Smaller (but nonetheless high quality) engineering schools would include Rose-Hulman, Bucknell, Baylor, and Lafayette. I know many of these are cold-weather schools, but I think in engineering the quality of the program should be a prime consideration.</p>

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<p>To the OP,</p>

<p>I would recalculate your son’s GPA using the following conventions:</p>

<p>4.0 = A = 94-100
3.7 = A- = 90-93
3.3 = B+ = 87-89
3.0 = B = 84-86
2.7 = B- = 80-83
2.3 = C+ = 77-79
2.0 = C = 74-76
1.7 = C- = 70-73
(I’m assuming you son hasn’t recieved an D’s or F’s)</p>

<p>This is how the majority of colleges will convert a 0-100 GPA into a 0.0-4.0 GPA. </p>

<p>For a male with a 3.5 to 3.7 GPA with ~1350 M + CR SAT (and near 800 M) I would guess matches would be schools like Purdue, UIUC, Texas A&M, Rose Hulman, or Case Western. Reaches would be schools like UT Austin, U Michigan, Carnegie Mellon, Cooper Union, or Cornell (last few are pretty big reaches).</p>

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<p>“This is how the majority of colleges will convert a 0-100 GPA into a 0.0-4.0 GPA.”</p>

<p>Is this your opinion, B-Schooler, or do you know this for a fact?<br>
Our public schools use a straight 90, 80, 70, 60 scale and no numerical grades appear on the transcript at all. Also, some but not all high schools include a profile that would explain the grading scale. I would argue that a school that has a 95 and higher for an A would have some natural grade inflation going on because most teachers like to have some A students in their classes.</p>