<p>I have just come upon this thread and wanted to reply to Ball State being referred to as a “safety school.” As the Chair of the Department of Theatre and Dance at Ball State, I was surprised to see us listed in this way. Both the musical theatre and acting majors take approximately 14 students per year. This is roughly 5% of the students who audition in a given year. This past year, we accepted 14 students in the acting program and 16 in the musical theatre program. Of these thirty students, twenty-two were from out of state. Further, the Department has Showcases for our graduating seniors in three cities that are by audition only. Each Showcase is cast by professional casting directors from each city. In Chicago we use Erica Daniels who is the Casting Director at Steppenwolf, in New York we use Broadway and off Broadway Casting Director Stephanie Klapper, and in Los Angeles we use Casting Director Mark Saks who currently casts THE GOOD WIFE, MEDIUM, and NUMBERS. The Department recently welcomed Sutton Foster to campus for a week where she conducted master classes and worked with our acting and musical theatre students. Each year, the Department works with Ms. Foster in New York. </p>
<p>Hope this gives you some perspective on the competitive nature of Ball State and the selectiveness by which we pick our BFA students…</p>
<p>I believe that Christopher Newport does require an audition to be admitted into the MT track… it just occurs AFTER one has already started their studies at CNU. From the website – </p>
<p>“The musical theater/dance track demands the energy, discipline and dedication to pursue simultaneous studies in acting, vocal performance and dance. Acceptance into this program also requires a singing audition with the Music faculty - arranged during the freshman or sophomore year.”</p>
<p>As others have mentioned, students have to make sure that they meet the academic standards of schools on their lists… as is stated by others Muhlenberg could be considered a safety for some, but no others… </p>
<p>Finances can also come into play for many… if your non-auditioned, academic safety school is not a school that is particularly generous with aid it may not be a true safety for you.</p>
<p>As far as BA schools listed above – Soozie has said this in her above posts and in other threads as well, but just to make sure it is clear… no school that requires an audition (BA programs included) can be considered safety schools. Some schools (BA or BFA) may have higher admit rates than others, however. </p>
<p>If possible try to find out the admit stats at a school, not the audition to yield stats… for example – at JMU this year it looks like we will audition approximately 110 prospective freshman to yield a class of 7 - 10. However, we will accept about 15 - 16 to yield that class of 7 - 10. So, our admit rate will probably be about 13% - 14.5% this year. People looking at the numbers – 110 auditioned for a class of 7 to 10 could assume a lower admit rate (6% - 9%) than we actually will have this year. </p>
<p>Ask schools for the number applied, the number accepted, and the number matriculated to get a more complete admissions picture.</p>
<p>I will add that the admit rate is not the only way to determine the artistic selectivity of each program. Pretty much, all BFAs and even audition BAs, have quite low admit rates. True that JMU’s admit rate of 14% is easier odds than CMU’s admit rate of 2.5%, it still is not that much of a percentage apart and still low. BUT…the applicant pool at certain schools differ, even though they overlap. I am bound to offend someone (sorry) but for example, the OVERALL talent pool applying to UMich or CMU is more competitive than the OVERALL talent pool applying to Millikin or Wright State. Sure, there is overlap (after all Jimmy Jones may be in BOTH the applicant pool to CMU and Wright State). However, there is a greater percentage of national talent applying to a school like UMich than to Millkin or Wright State. I know highly talented qualified candidates for BFA in MT programs who got into top programs in the country who were not even in the applicant pools to certain BFA programs. There are a slew of schools on this forum that NONE of my D’s friends applied to at all and they landed at well known BFA programs. Another thing is that kids who are admitted to say, CCM, also got into say, Montclair State, there is a strong likelihood that such a candidate will take the acceptance at CCM, thus opening up slots to others at Montclair State. So, while all the BFA programs have very low admit rates, their talent pools are not identical. One way to balance a list (besides academic balance which is important) is to have a range of BFA programs on the list in terms of their artistic selectivity (not just admit rate but national vs. regional prominence, etc.) and some BA by audition schools, and some non audition BA programs. I do fear that by naming schools, someone will feel offended and I apologize. But an example is that I have had students who got into Roosevelt but not other BFAs or got into Shenandoah but not other well known BFAs. These programs STILL have difficult odds but they balance out a list that has schools like Ithaca, CCM, and CMU on it. In my view, the latter have tougher odds than the former. But they all have low admit rates.</p>
<p>Thanks for bringing up the pool of students auditioning for a particular set of schools… I started to try to discuss it in my post, but started talking in circles, so erased it and stopped! :)</p>
<p>There are some schools that will draw a more national pool of applicants, and some that will draw a more regional pool. There will be some overlap between the schools and some students may apply to some of the same schools and not others. All of this may impact the overall selectivity. </p>
<p>Because auditioned program admissions is subjective it is possible that the admissions outcomes and eventual matriculation choices can be a bit fluky… For example – A student may get into CCM or NYU, but NOT get into CMU… or the other way around. A student may not get into any of the schools he or she considered “back-ups”, but get into a more generally regarded “top” program. A student may get into both a program considered “more selective” and a program considered “less selective” and choose the program considered “less selective” because it is truly the better fit for their educational and training goals. </p>
<p>Soozie’s advice is terrific: </p>
<p>“One way to balance a list (besides academic balance which is important) is to have a range of BFA programs on the list in terms of their artistic selectivity (not just admit rate but national vs. regional prominence, etc.) and some BA by audition schools, and some non audition BA programs.”</p>
<p>I agree wholeheartedly! </p>
<p>and add… I would put SOME of the auditioned BA programs in the same category as SOME of the auditioned BFA programs in terms of selectivity… and I would put ALL non-auditioned programs (BA and BFA – although they are few and far between) in the same category as long as students meet the academic admissions standards. I would also make sure to check very closely how the academic and artistic “stats” impact admissions decisions. There are some BFA programs that weigh academics very strongly in the admissions decisions [NYU] and some that do not as much [CMU]. I am not sure about other schools, but I know that students have to be academically competitive for admission to JMU to be admitted to the Musical Theatre program here. </p>
<p>I think so often people who are just starting off the search think that just because a program is a BA it will be a “back-up”(I know that is not what you are saying Soozie :)), but there are so many factors that come into play with college admissions that is simply not always the case. </p>
<p>I think it can also be difficult for some to gauge where they fall in the overall talent pool. Particularly if they have not been fortunate enough to attend summer programs or camps that draw a more national group of kids.</p>
<p>All of these entries provide great perspective and I appreciate the conversation. Admission rates and percentages are not nearly as important as whether or not the students are working post graduation and how the program develops the students artists they have the good fortune to teach. The most important advice I always give to any students is the following:</p>
<ol>
<li> Any program that says they are the only school for you is not really interested in your well being, but is more interested in themselves.</li>
<li> Always talk to the students currently attending the school…if they tell you not to attend their school, then you should not!</li>
<li> Trust your gut instinct…it is almost always right.</li>
</ol>
<p>Following up on the discussion about competitiveness of BFA programs, regional vs. national applicant pools and Emmybet’s question about how to put together a list of schools, those entering the process now may want to read the pegged thread “Class of 2009 and 2010-Preparing to Apply”. There’s a lot of good info from many parents, consultants and educators, including suggestions for how to put together a balanced, smart list of schools for a student and to avoid the “more is better” syndrome that can result in a tremendous increase in time consumption and stress without significantly increasing the odds of an acceptance.</p>
<p>Kat, you are right that there are some BA by audition programs in the same category of artistic selectivity as certain BFA programs. So, it is not like all the BFA programs are tier one, and BA by audition are tier two in terms of selectivity. I didn’t get too detailed here but actually in my college list building with my students, I assess their academic odds at each school and help them balance the list that way (reach, match, safety academic odds) but also look at the artistic selectivity of all the programs (no matter the degree) and balance it that way and group them roughly and there are certain BA by audition programs that are in the same range of selectivity of certain BFAs for sure… in terms of odds. </p>
<p>Ball State Bill…I also would be leary of programs that profess to be the only school for you or else “the best program” and would take it one step further…schools that claim they are better than the other programs and put down other programs. I have seen it and also heard such accounts. That turns me off. A school should emphasize what they offer and not who is best or better. Putting down other programs (or in some cases, providing erroneous information about other programs) should not be part of their message to prospective students.</p>
<p>I totally agree on the importance of talking to current students at a particular college! I’m not so sure I agree with the idea to not attend if the students tell you not to. I would caution applicants or even message board readers to not put too much stock in what one or two kids say about a school. Rather, it is important to garner many first hand perspectives on a school. If you only talk to one kid or two kids who attend and they are not happy, that doesn’t mean you won’t be happy there as your experience and your personal criteria may differ. What you need is to hear from many who attend and look for a pattern. One or two opinions can be limited and you might run into a disgruntled student who isn’t happy for reasons that would never pertain to you if you were to attend. Talk to MANY at the college.</p>
<p>Regarding financial safety, for a high stats kids, Temple provides merit money and an academic admission prior to the audition, so you may have some incentive to pursue the audition. My D rec’ed a renewable, $10,000 annual merit scholarship, which brings it closer in line to an instate public. She was also offered the honors college and honors housing. If she is accepted into the MT program, we will have to investigated if she can pursue the honors college in the MT track.
She visited, auditioned and enjoyed her visit. The campus is growing and vital.</p>
<p>For someone who is a high stats student, but not accepted into the BFA program (eg., UMich., Emerson, BU), would these schools offer an admission into the college anyway for another program or reject them entirely? Talking about a student for whom Emerson and BU would be safety schools academically.</p>
<p>Oh – I forgot this was the musical theater forum, not the drama one, but would assume the question would apply if auditioning for acting track only.</p>
<p>SDonCC…this works differently at each school and so the answer cannot be a blanket one for all colleges with BFA programs. At some colleges, there are separate admissions processes to the university and to the program, whereby you can get into the university but not the program, if you apply for a BFA. Examples include Elon, Emerson, Indiana. At some schools, it is all ONE process…all or nothing. Examples include: Carnegie Mellon, NYU/Tisch, Syracuse. At UMich, if you don’t get into the BFA, you are not offered a spot in arts and sciences. I beleive you might be able to apply separately to arts and sciences at UMich but you have to double check but that is not the same as being considered for arts and sciences if a BFA applicant (you won’t be). They may allow two applications there to two separate schools within the university. That is not true at other schools necessarily, however.</p>
<p>From personal experience with my own kid, she got accepted to Emerson, but not the BFA (was deferred for their BFA in EA and then denied in spring but was accepted to the college in Dec.). At UMich, she was denied for the BFA in MT, and thus could not attend UMich at all (not that she would have chosen to). I share this as a parent of a very strong student who would have been admissible academically to UMich if applying to arts/sciences.</p>
<p>When we were at Mich, we were told that candidates for the BFA program would not be considered for admission to another school/major unless they specifically requested that AND met the requirements for that school, which may or may not have additional requirements than the BFA MT program to which she applied. I did meet one parent whose son had already been admitted to the arts/science department and one who was also awaiting a decision from engineering. </p>
<p>My D has been accepted to Temple (awaiting decision for MT following the audition) and has been accepted to Indiana (audition coming up this weekend) without a separate application or request.</p>
<p>I think that BU said that they would not consider my S for admission to another program if he didn’t get into the BFA. I’m not positive though so double check! </p>
<p>Emerson, yes, as was said already. And don’t forget about the Honors Program at Emerson which comes with a merit award, half tuition, I think. It requires a separate application, essay and graded writing sample. </p>
<p>Soozievt mentioned the program at Hofstra earlier and I would like to add that my S applied EA. They also have an Honors College and gave merit $$. He was later sent an application from the Drama Dept and will be auditioning for an additional talent grant in March. We know someone who got full tuition.</p>
<p>Note: the audition is not required for the program just for the talent grant.</p>
<p>Could someone make a link to the thread MichaelNKat referred to, “Class of 2009 and 2010-Preparing to Apply”? I’ve searched it but don’t know what a pegged thread is. There is so much helpful advice for those of us early in the process throughout these threads, but that one sounds great.</p>
<p>The way to find that thread is that it is a “featured discussion” on the MT Forum. Notice at the top of the list of threads on this forum, there are some “featured” ones. The one Michael mentioned is one of them and I just gave you the link but it is right there at the top of all the threads on the MT Forum page. See in red where it says “CC’s Hot Topics”? Right under that, it says: “Featured Discussions”. (his thread is one of the “featured” ones) Right under that, is the button for starting a new thread. THEN, comes a list of the most current threads on the MT forum, with several pinned/stuck threads that stay at the top of the list no matter what.</p>
<p>Thank you! I don’t know how I missed that right at the top! So much information around here, I get cross-eyed!</p>
<p>soozie, while you’re here, what would be your recommendations in NY/NJ for a non-auditioned BA in theater or MT, for a B+ student? We’re visiting spring break and want to cover as many bases as we can.</p>
<p>I just spent time writing a bunch out to you and when I went to post my post, it didn’t work and it is all lost. I will try to recreate the post at some point for you but can’t right now as I have to do my real job. But in the meantime, I can tell you that if you use the SEARCH function for just the MT Forum, there have been many threads in the past about non-audition theater and MT schools. </p>
<p>Sorry my post got lost in cyberspace. I spent considerable time on it and just can’t do it again right now.</p>
<p>Thank you so much for your time and effort! I know so many of us appreciate the wonderful help you and the other professionals volunteer to give us here.</p>
<p>We’ll keep working on our list, and keep watching the posts. So many things change, and the experience and perspective the folks here have is really invaluable.</p>
<p>It is overwhelming sometimes, but we’re starting to have a decent chart that we can work with, to keep track of the different programs. The hard thing is winnowing out our “favorites” when we only have a short time to visit. We’re trying to make a list where we have at least one of each “kind,” including using the general attributes of schools we know she likes (size, location, etc.). I’m finding it difficult to factor in the instructors’ resumes and that kind of information - it changes the whole structure of the list. She tends to respond to students’ reports of their own experiences, and that’s not always available (or reliable). But there are lots of options, and I know we’ll have a successful trip!</p>
<p>We’ve got our NY trip pretty much planned, and today I made a list of about a dozen schools that are potentials for a visit or at least a walk-through. Now she can visit the websites and see which ones interest her the most. The list includes the size, location, what degrees are offered, whether they require an audition, and how they are generally for admission (selectivity, test-optional, etc.). She can look at the more experiential questions, about the programs specifically, the faculty, etc. Right now she’s leaning toward straight theatre, but she loves MT and could easily go that way, and many of the schools have both.It will be interesting to see what she decides. </p>
<p>I’ll ask her to pick a mix of audition/non-audition schools. What did surprise me was how hard it is to find the latter, how many LACs with theatre/MT BAs do audition students. I’m wondering if this is starting to be an increasing trend. I can see why they would go that way, how it could benefit both the program and the students, too, but on the other hand, it makes me worry that someday there will be hardly anywhere left that students can go to without an audition, without a HS theatre resume, without their minds made up by 17.</p>
<p>EmmyBet, I just wanted to commend you on all the help and support you’re giving your daughter. This goes to a lot of the CC parents! I’d die (in a good way) if my mother, or father for that matter, ever made me a detailed list like the one you described. I dunno if she thanks you often, but I’d like to take the liberty to do so on her behalf. I’m sure she’s appreciative regardless of if she says it often. As a teenage girl myself, I know sometimes the last thing on my mind is to thank my parents. :)</p>
This goes to a lot of the CC parents! I’d die (in a good way) if my mother, or father for that matter, ever made me a detailed list like the one you described. I dunno if she thanks you often, but I’d like to take the liberty to do so on her behalf. I’m sure she’s appreciative regardless of if she says it often. As a teenage girl myself, I know sometimes the last thing on my mind is to thank my parents. :)</p>