HPY undergrad GPA comparisons. Impact of Princeton grade deflation policy

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>There has been discussion about the inflation of undergrad GPA's in the Ivy League. However, Princeton introduced grade DEFLATION a few years ago. </p>

<p>Does anyone have recent statistics on average GPA's at Princeton? </p>

<p>Does anyone know the current average GPA for the 2008 Princeton graduating class?. Does anyone know what GPA was needed to graduate with the various levels of honors and what percentage of the class graduated with these honors?</p>

<p>HOw do these statistics compare to Harvard and Yale? </p>

<p>If the Princeton GPA's are lower that Harvard and Yale, how does this effect issues such as job offers, grad school admissions, post graduate scholarships, academic honors and rankings etc....?</p>

2

<p>The grade deflation policy has not been popular with all undergraduates (just check the archives of the Daily Princetonian in which you will find the Dean of the College routinely vilified!) but change is often unsettling. In fact, the new policy simply returns averages to where they were about fifteen years ago. While individual undergraduates may feel that the policy has had an effect on their future employment or graduate school plans, the evidence collected for the entire student body suggests otherwise. </p>

<p>Since the policy was implemented the percentage of graduates accepted into the top professional schools has increased while the percentage getting jobs immediately upon graduation has also increased. Admittedly, there are problems with these analyses. Was it an improvement in the job market nationally that caused the percentage of students getting jobs to go up? Were higher rates of admission to the top law and medical schools the result of smarter students having been admitted? Answering these questions is difficult and certainly impossible for me. </p>

<p>What is true is that the policy has helped standardize grading across the university. In the past, grading was always tougher in the sciences and engineering than it was in the humanities. It is also true that the impact on the GPAs of graduating students has been relatively small and that their job prospects and their rate of admission to the top professional and graduate programs has not suffered.</p>

<p>I will bet that the entire issue is one that is rarely discussed by undergraduates within a few years. There is some talk that Princeton’s peers recognize that they have the same problem and are waiting to see how effective Princeton is in dealing with it before they follow. The change has certainly not dissuaded students from applying to Princeton as the number of applications has increased significantly since the policy went into effect.</p>

<p>Below are some links to articles detailing the policy change and providing detailed information on its effects. </p>

<hr>

<p>Interview with President Shirley Tilghman</p>

<p>PAW</a> September 27, 2006: Features</p>

<p>Question: You also oversaw Princeton’s move to end grade inflation. What’s your assessment of how that is working? </p>

<p>Answer: I think it’s safe to say that the students have been very skeptical about the value to them of grade deflation. That’s probably the understatement of the year. They’re concerned about it. Their concerns focus on the future, on their competitiveness for jobs, for graduate schools, for whatever they’re going to do next. We really have no evidence that their concerns are realized. In fact, I think we have evidence to the contrary. </p>

<p>When we began to look at grade inflation at Princeton, one of the things that popped out immediately was that it was extremely inhomogeneous across the curriculum. There were departments where it happened, and there were departments that were grading virtually indistinguishably from the way that they were grading in 1975. So you can then do an experiment, and you can ask if the career options available to the students who concentrated in the non-grade-inflated departments were different over time than those who were in the grade-inflated departments, and the answer is no. I think what students don’t fully appreciate is the meaning of a degree from Princeton University. </p>

<p>The other thing I think [Dean of the College] Nancy Malkiel will tell you is that she has been vigilant in communicating our new policy to deans of admission at the primary [graduate] schools where our students apply, and they have been in large measure extremely grateful, because they were reaching a point at which grades were just meaningless. </p>

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<p>“Committee issues statement on grading results for 2006-07”</p>

<p>Princeton</a> University - Committee issues statement on grading results for 2006-07</p>

<hr>

<p>“Progress on grading policy continues, data show no drawbacks for graduates”</p>

<p>Princeton</a> University - Progress on grading policy continues, data show no drawbacks for graduates</p>

<p>Using data from the Office of Career Services' annual survey of Princeton seniors on their post-graduation plans, the committee compared statistics for the class of 2004 -- the last class to graduate before the new grading standards went into effect -- with those for the classes of 2005 and 2006.</p>

<p>"We see no evidence of detrimental effects from the new grading policy on the fortunes of Princetonians in the various external marketplaces in which they compete for jobs and graduate and professional school admissions," the committee stated.</p>

<p>Noting that many other factors affect these data, such as the state of the economy, the committee reported that the percentage of students who had full-time jobs in May of their senior year has increased over the three years: 29.4 percent of the class of 2004; 32.5 percent of the class of 2005; and 35 percent of the class of 2006. Of those who intended to work, the percentage still seeking employment in May of their senior year has decreased: 23.4 percent of the class of 2004; 22.2 percent of the class of 2005; and 18.8 percent of the class of 2006.</p>

<p>The committee also analyzed data on admission to graduate schools, medical schools and law schools and found "no evidence of any harm to Princeton undergraduates' further schooling and future careers."</p>

<hr>

<p>“Frequently Asked Questions About Grading”</p>

<p>This article provides great detail regarding the implementation of the policy and instructions to faculty members. It also contains graphs and statistical information on the policy’s effects and on changes in rates of graduate school admission and employment.</p>

<p>Princeton</a> University - Dean of the College - FAQ</p>

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<p>Yes, but what do students think? How has it changed academic life at Princeton?</p>

<p>USG</a> - Princeton University</p>

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<p>Lurker, thank you for posting the additional information. I assume you are a current Princeton student. It’s no secret that current undergraduates are unhappy with the policy. The administration is well aware of that. I don’t believe, however, that it has had an effect on the classroom atmosphere or, if it has, it’s apparently not a bad effect. Note how enthusiastic recent graduates are about their Princeton experience. I’m told that 75% to 80% of last year’s graduates are expected to make a voluntary financial contribution to Princeton’s annual giving program by the end of June. I think that says a lot about how happy they were with the academic environment. This is especially significant since that class had the grading policy changed during its sophomore year. It entered under one set of rules and then lived with the rule change for the last three years. With nearly 80% of them planning to donate to Princeton it’s difficult to believe that the grading policy change was much of a negative for them. In fact, they seem remarkably happy. </p>

<p>As I stated above, I believe that this will not be much of an issue in future years. It may, however, be an issue at Princeton’s peers where grade inflation has not been seriously addressed and apparently continues. Princeton has received some praise within the academic community for taking a stand on this issue. The Ivies have begun to be known for inflated grades whereas other high quality schools such as Reed College in Oregon have dramatically lower average grades. Note the comment below of the Dean of Admissions at Georgetown Law School:</p>

<p>"Schools that are not part of this inflation trend we certainly make note of," says Andy Cornblatt, dean of admissions at Georgetown University Law School. Recruiters at Accenture and Goldman Sachs say they also recognize that different schools have different grading cultures, and they consider this when hiring graduates and student interns.</p>

<p>GRADE</a> DEFLATION | Newsweek Education | Newsweek.com</p>

<p>For general reviews of the issue and discussions at Harvard and Yale, see the following:</p>

<p>Princeton</a> leads in grade deflation - USATODAY.com
The</a> Harvard Crimson :: News :: 'A's Still Abound Headline 4.0 Years Later
Yale</a> Daily News - Poll suggests grade inflation</p>

<p>Finally, I think we should also note that the overall effect on GPAs is actually relatively small and may be only slightly over 0.1 on a 4.0 scale.</p>

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<p>I wouldn't take the donation rate as a precise measure of student satisfaction with the direction in which Princeton is headed. Plus, a graduating senior can donate $1 (that's how much many of them give and who knows if the total amount given by this segment has decreased) and still be tallied as a donor. Thus, this figure may very well be inflated. There's a decent amount of peer pressure involved with these things, too, with not donating being frowned upon. The point is that there are many other significant explanatory variables for the donation rate, which could also very well deflate in future years when classes that have felt four years of the policy (and not just upper level classes that have relatively inflated grades) pass through the school.</p>

<p>I agree with you that this will not be much of an issue in future years- as long as other top schools adopt a similar policy. Or if all schools included summary statistics regarding their students' grades overall and for all majors. Or if Princeton were to stop putting hard caps on grades.</p>

<p>All of this still does not address what happens if you don't apply to a top grad. school/high-flying job/etc. on the beaten path that is aware of the policy. A significant portion of the student body has to deal with this problem. Plus, nobody but the administration (and for some types of post-graduation choices, nobody) knows how the policy has affected the quality of grad. school acceptances/jobs for graduates. </p>

<p>Finally, the effect of grade deflation on GPAs may also be much more pronounced than 0.1:</p>

<p>Yale</a> median GPA is 3.6, study finds - The Daily Princetonian</p>

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<p>Lurker, I’m afraid that you have some misconceptions here. The percentage of recent graduates who contribute is very significant as an indicator of how they viewed their undergraduate experience.</p>

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<p>I’m a little surprised that you would say this. I hear it repeated frequently by critics of Princeton but there’s simply no truth to it. If you are a current student you must know that seniors at Princeton don’t participate in Annual Giving. (You may be confusing this with Harvard where, I believe, there is a senior class gift.) At Princeton, the first opportunity to give back is one year after graduation. As a senior in recent years it’s possible to pledge that you plan to join Annual Giving the following year, but you give no money. Apparently, about 85% of this year’s graduating seniors made that promise and these students spent the entire four years under the grade deflation policy.</p>

<p>The percentages I was mentioning are for the Class of 2007 which has been away from Princeton for a year. That class, which did feel the full force of the grade deflation policy, is just now participating in Annual Giving and it appears that over 75% of them will probably contribute. Their average donation (actually the mean size) is about $35.00 each. (This does not count matching gifts from their employers or the handful of larger donations that would skew the average.) Donations of $1.00 are extremely rare but I hear this old story told frequently by those who want to claim that Annual Giving at Princeton is somehow manipulated and not representative of graduates’ enthusiasm. You are technically correct in that a donation of a single dollar would still count toward the percentage participation figures but virtually no one does this.</p>

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<p>While all Princeton graduates are encouraged to participate in Annual Giving, there can’t be much peer pressure when they are scattered across the globe and not in regular contact with their old classmates. Decisions to give are always individual. </p>

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<p>I’m not sure I see your point here. The administration has compiled these figures and published them in a detailed manner. Now, all of us know. The results are shown in the reports accessible through the links I’ve provided. I suppose if you are suggesting that they are lying about the results then there’s no way I can prove you wrong but there is no evidence, of which I know, that would suggest they are doing so. Before Princeton instituted this policy it consulted with the nation’s leading graduate schools and a host of employers and it continues to provide detailed information about the change to all of them each time it sends out a transcript. </p>

<p>


</p>

<p>No, the effect is just about .1 on a 4.0 scale. I’m curious as to why you would think it is more than this. The numbers are straightforward and the details are provided in the graphs accessible here: </p>

<p>Princeton</a> University - Dean of the College - FAQ</p>

<p>The greatest change among all departments has been in the humanities and there the average GPA has dropped from about 3.48 to 3.35, a change of .13. In the sciences and other departments the change has been even less significant so that the average across the University has been a drop of about .1 in GPA. </p>

<p>Interestingly, there has been almost no drop in the top 50% of the class as you’ll see from the graphs. Most of the change has been in the bottom 50% of the class with the greatest change in the bottom 10% of each class. Even the bottom 10% of the class has only seen a drop of about .2 on a 4.0 scale.</p>

<p>Again, my feeling about this policy change is that it has already brought Princeton even greater respect within the academic community. The anger that many current students feel about the policy is not justified and is not even reflected in their own overall feelings about their undergraduate experiences. Recent graduates are extremely enthusiastic about their Princeton years. The change in average GPA is slight. The acceptance rates of graduates into the top professional schools and graduate programs has actually risen since the policy was implemented and professors are not given hard ‘caps’ on the percentage of ‘A’ level grades they may award in individual classes. I would wager that even by the next academic year, this topic won’t be much discussed on campus.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Princeton’s grade deflation policy specifically states that there is no hard cap. Individual professors are free to grade as they see fit in their classes.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It is important to remember that professors often perceive pressure from their department to cap A's at 35%. You can bet that an assistant professor in the running for tenure will follow the 35% guideline to the letter so that he or she is not viewed negatively by higher ups in the department. Associate and full professors are likely to be more independent in their grading. My tenured economics professor, for example, noted that the class as a whole was performing at a higher level than usual and that he would have no problem giving 45% of the class A's.</p>

<p>There are some aspects of grade deflation I like. As a math/science major, it's nice to know that students in the humanities aren't getting significantly higher grades. But at the same time, I am troubled by the effects the policy has on student behavior. I'm not really talking about competitiveness in class. I took a very large premed course and still did not come across the cutthroat atmosphere that some have warned of. What troubles me is how the policy has affected my friends' approach to course selection. I have no data to back this up, but many of my classmates stick to classes within their major and are reluctant to take classes which are perceived to be hard. There may be no evidence that the policy has negatively affected career prospects, but students fear that it could, and they have changed their behavior accordingly. It's worth noting that a more generous P/D/F policy would go a long way to fixing the course selection problems I described. The administration has been similarly unresponsive to student concerns on this issue.</p>

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<p>Fair points, Weasel, but I think what you’re seeing is that the problem, to the extent that it exists, is more a problem of student perceptions of the policy than of the policy itself. Perceptions will change over time to conform to the real effects of the policy.</p>

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<p>PtonGrad2000, I'd like to see the donation figures myself, including the ones for the Class of 2008 a year from now and recent trends and distributions in the donation data before responding to the first segment of your post. A comparison with average donations for other schools would be nice, too. I don't see the point in bickering over how much people donate if I don't (or both of us don't) have access to the exact distributions for each year (plus the future ones for the Class of 2008, since they've fully felt the effects grade deflation and other controversial policies). That said, there is anecdotal evidence in my experience that a decent number of juniors and seniors intend to donate little, if anything at all, to Princeton, with recent policies including grade deflation being the rationale.</p>

<p>The pledge process is not "always individual"; I've definitely heard seniors talk about specific people who were not planning to join annual giving. I certainly don't think I was the only one hearing this type of gossip, or that this gossip isn't indicative of intra-class pressure to pledge. Thus I'm skeptical of the usefulness of this 85% figure you give for the Class of 2008, especially since you can join, and therefore obtain the social benefits of appearing to intend to donate, but not actually give any money back to the school. As I already stated, my point is that the donation rate can be explained by many factors, including the degree of organization and intensity of fundraising efforts. By saying "The percentage of recent graduates who contribute is very significant as an indicator of how they viewed their undergraduate experience" you come across as being self-congratulatory rather than providing empirically sound claims. If you happened to take one of Princeton's great statistics or econometrics courses and encountered some theory-based social science, I'm surprised that you would say this.</p>

<p>As Weasel has already pointed out, the Grading Policy may say that 35% isn't a hard cap, but in reality there are many instances where professors treat it as one. Preceptors, feeling pressure from above, often do so, too. Plus, having a complaint system through the USG isn't comforting given the disdain administrators seem to have for the student government and student input in general.</p>

<p>As for my point regarding post-graduation plans, I meant what I said. The administration gives aggregated data, which fail to show possible shifts in the quality of jobs and graduate school acceptances due to the policy. Plus, it would be naive not to be at least somewhat skeptical of the sets of data given to you by a party supporting a policy that said party has an interest in promoting. They can most certainly cherry-pick statistics that look favorable and fail to report others. Why are all the links you provided in your original post essentially PR pieces by the University?</p>

<p>As I already stated, all of this still does not address what happens if you don't apply to a top graduate school/high-flying job/etc. on the beaten path that is aware of the policy. A significant portion of the student body has to deal with this problem.</p>

<p>Since I wasn't 100 percent clear on my final point in my previous post, I think we're talking past each other on it. What I meant by posting the Prince article is that the effect of the policy may be to increase the GPA differential between Princeton and one of its peer schools, Yale, to a value greater than 0.1. This was to provide some sort of preliminary answer to wondering mum's original question regarding GPA comparison among H, Y and P.</p>

<p>Your dismissal of the notion that the policy has any significant long-term effects on academic life at Princeton is rather arrogant and relatively baseless, as you are not a current student and have not directly experienced the realities the policy creates.</p>

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<p>the average GPA for the senior class is somewhere between 3.4 and 3.5-- that being said, I don't think that it has negatively impacted many people's plans. At least anecdotally, I know (many, maybe 10-12) people without extremely high grades (ie didnt graduate summa cum laude) going to very highly ranked medical and law schools. I also know that I did not have fantastic grades (~average) and got into every graduate school that I applied to. I also got a fantastic consulting job at a top three firm without any economics experience at all. I also know people who have GPAs significantly below average who have finance jobs or consulting jobs with big name companies. I think that they really do take grades into consideration, and that as long as you are in the top half of the class you will do fine. </p>

<p>I also did not take easier classes to get a better GPA, or avoid hard ones to not get a bad grade. Second semester of my senior year I took a notoriously hard professor as a third class, and did relatively badly. But it was totally worth it for the experience. If you want to go to medical school, that may be impossible, but it would have likely been impossible previously as well. Hard professors were always hard, even before grade deflation. </p>

<p>basically, grade deflation sucks, but its not as bad as everyone makes it sound, and I don't think that people have been particularly negatively affected by it. I am sure that someone has, but I think that the general consensus is that it's okay.</p>

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<p>Lurker, the statistical evidence of the effects of the policy change is overwhelming. If you wish to dismiss the evidence simply because it has been gathered by the University, then there’s no way to discuss this with you since there is no other source of data.</p>

<p>Yes, it is a fact that about 85% of the seniors this year pledged to join Annual Giving. I don’t know of an online source to verify this but you may call the Annual Giving office at Princeton and they’ll confirm the number. I doubt that peer pressure alone could account for a figure this high. Last year’s graduates will probably reach a level of around 75% participation in Annual Giving and it is for them (not for the seniors who are not even a part of Annual Giving) that I noted the decisions are individual with peer pressure playing little if any role. As for comparisons with peer institutions, the data are public. Most of Princeton’s peers tend to have participation rates in their annual giving drives that are in the mid 40% range. Princeton traditionally sees about 60% participation overall. I can’t think of another good proxy for the appreciation of an entire body of alumni. The only other that might make some sense would be attendance at University-sponsored events open to alumni. If this is the basis for evaluation, Princeton will also rank highly as its alumni gatherings for reunions and Alumni Day see huge crowds.</p>

<p>Yes, the drop in average GPA is approximately .1 on a 4.0 scale and the change is concentrated in the bottom half and, more specifically, the bottom quarter of the class. Again this is statistically sound evidence. You may choose not to believe it because of the source but to disprove it you’ll need counter evidence. Any difference between average GPAs of Princeton graduates and those of Yale or Harvard graduates will thus only have changed by .1. If there is more of a difference than that, it existed before the change in policy. This is also difficult to analyze because many of Princeton’s peers don’t release figures for average GPA. The Yale Daily News conducted a very unscientific poll that suggested significant grade inflation at Yale, but, being unscientific, the average GPA they reported can’t safely be used for comparison.</p>

<p>The analysis of acceptance rates into the top graduate programs and professional schools seems straightforward as well. You suggest that these favorable trends in regard to the top programs in the country may not reflect what is going on with acceptance rates into lower ranked programs and schools. While this wasn’t analyzed, does it make much sense that recent graduates would see improving chances of admission to the top programs while simultaneously becoming less likely to be accepted at lower ranking programs?</p>

<p>Finally, I humbly stand behind my opinion that this policy change is good and will have long-term positive effects for Princeton. Among those in higher education, it has already bolstered the University’s reputation. I think the real issue in the future will be for Princeton’s peers should they decide to do nothing about grade inflation.</p>

<p>Also, I must say that simply labeling someone who disagrees with you as arrogant is hardly an argument. You have presented only opinions and anecdotes rather than data. You are certainly free to express those opinions as am I. As an alumnus rather than a current student I don’t feel at any disadvantage in evaluating the statistical evidence regarding the policy change and applying some common sense in analyzing it. You suggest that personal experience of the policy would provide a more informed opinion. I note that the current undergraduates who have identified themselves as such are irritated by the policy (something I’ve acknowledged repeatedly) but don’t seem to have found it a reason not to appreciate their academic experiences at Princeton. Are you willing to go on the record and identify yourself as a current student? Your own opinions would have more weight if you do. I asked before but note that you’ve not responded. You write extremely well and I’d be interested in knowing to which class you belong at Princeton.</p>

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<p>I think that annual giving rates can be somewhat useful as a measure of student satisfaction, but I agree with Lurker that there are enough confounding variables such as peer pressure to make other more precise metrics desireable. The results of a survey similar to the one</a> recently conducted by the Harvard Crimson would be useful in identifying specific aspects of the Princeton experience which could be improved. I am told that the administration surveys the sophomore and senior classes on their experiences, but I have not seen the results. The USG recently conducted a very general survey[/url</a>] focusing on students' attitudes toward the administration after being petitioned to do so by Kyle Smith '09. The questions were, in the words of a [url=<a href="http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2008/04/25/21015/%5DDaily">http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2008/04/25/21015/]Daily</a> Princetonian editorial, "vague and inflamatory." I tend to agree, but I did find the free</a> response results helpful in shedding more light on grade deflation and other issues important to students.</p>

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<p>I shall return tomorrow; it's too late and I'm too tired to give a considered response right now.</p>

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<p>I wouldn't necessarily call the statistical evidence regarding the effects of the policy overwhelming. Like I said, in aggregating the data, one might fail to notice subtle but relevant shifts in how Princeton students fare on the job market. If you lump all "top" jobs and all "top" medical schools into single categories, you won't necessarily notice these shifts. The reason why I mention this point is because I heard a rumor that a student did independent work on this subject and found that when you take a closer look at the data regarding grade deflation, the quality of jobs Princeton graduates have taken has shifted downward within these "top job" categories since the grading policy has been implemented. Now, this is just a rumor, I do not know exactly how this student would have obtained the data, and I would not take it as fact, but it raises the point that a shift like this may have occurred, and we would have difficulty seeing this shift with the data the administration has provided. Furthermore, the shift may be relative instead of absolute, which is also relevant (see below).</p>

<p>The point is that there needs to be a more robust evaluation of the effects of the policy. In the administration's reports on the effects of the policy, they do concede that how students fare post-graduation is affected by many factors, "chief among them the state of the economy" and the financial services industry. What if students are being disadvantaged relative to how they would have fared with recent economic conditions (not very recent- in 2006 when the financial services industry/economy had not yet gone bust) under the old grading policy?</p>

<p>Nearly every year, Princeton admits a greater proportion of academically qualified applicants than in the past, as designated by the academic index Princeton employs in evaluating them (see Lenahan</a> questions basis for grade deflation). A possible response by some of these companies to the grading policy could be to peg the number of people they hire out of Princeton to pre-grade-deflation levels (adjusting for economic conditions) despite an increase of qualified applicants in the pool of Princeton students. That's just a hypothesis I'm throwing out there, and it could be unsupported, but we have almost no way to test it without access to the raw data on this matter.</p>

<p>Similarly, I would like to see finer data regarding Annual Giving along with more rigorous analysis of this data before I will be satisfied with the claims that these summary statistics purportedly support. In addition to the factors I have already mentioned that may be significant in explaining the variation in donation rates among different schools, I can think of another one: current endowment size.</p>

<p>My skepticism with regards to these matters stems from the fact that it is easy to take summary statistics and spin them favorably (indeed, they may look very favorable and be indicative of actual favorable realities) without doing a more academically honest analysis. I would like to think that my liberal (not <em>necessarily</em> in the political sense) Princeton education has imbued me with solid critical thinking faculties even when evaluating an institution that has positively contributed to my life. I will specify that I am in a class between 2008 and 2011, but not anything more specific because I would prefer to limit the amount of personal information I post on a public message board.</p>

<p>I gave the article regarding Yale's GPAs to highlight what the differential may be between Princeton and its peers. The article and its underlying data collection methods are certainly not flawless. Moreover, it would take some pretty deceitful actions to favorably skew the data on the change in the average GPA of Princeton students resulting from the grading policy, so I pretty much agree with you that the effect on the average Princeton GPA is probably only about .1. On the other hand, it would be nice to see how the median Princeton GPA has shifted and what its current value is, as the survey referenced in the article indicates it may be pretty low (much lower than the average GPA).</p>

<p>The reason why I'm concerned about this increased differential between Princeton students' GPA's and those of students at its peer schools is that it has the potential to cause significant harm to the many students who apply for jobs with employers who are unaware of the policy. It is great that Dean Malkiel has made efforts to notify top employers and graduate programs of the grading policy change, but it is very tough cover all, or even enough, bases here. Even if some employers are unaware of the policy, it definitely has the potential to have (and likely already has had) real effects.</p>

<p>Ec1234, I've heard anecdotal evidence to the contrary, namely, that you need pretty high grades to get into top graduate programs and consulting jobs. Of course, as is also the case with applying to college, your GPA is one of many factors in determining whether you are selected. If you have a really tough major, such as math or physics, or excellent leadership credentials, an average GPA will still allow you to obtain a job, especially if you interview very well. This is not to say that the policy has not had some effect on how Princeton students have fared post-graduation. I'm not saying my anecdotes have more weight than yours, but rather that better analysis is needed to in order to satisfactorily claim the grading policy has had no effect, or that having an average GPA is common for those who go on to top graduate programs and jobs.</p>

<p>PtonGrad2000, I don't necessarily think you are an arrogant person, since I don't know you, but I think completely discounting evidence in the form of recent surveys showing a significant amount of student discontent regarding the grading policy and its effects (including those not related to post-graduation prospects) is a bit of an arrogant action from a debating standpoint. Plenty of respondents criticized grade deflation in the free response section Weasel mentioned, and I know from personal experience that this is still a big issue on campus, so I have a hard time believing that it will disappear anytime soon, especially since there have not been similar actions to curb grade inflation at other top schools.</p>

<p>Since I am a current student, I feel that I have a decent view of how current students feel about the policy, and this view is supported by surveys. To read postings that cast grade deflation essentially as a non-issue from someone who is a couple years removed from Princeton and seems to have formed an opinion based on very specific sources of information (correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to be official university statements, PAW, and a handful of posters on a message board) makes one who has seen some significant negative effects of the policy a little incensed. For one, I think it does encourage more strategic course selection and, in doing so, devalues a Princeton education.</p>

<p>To anticipate the possible charge that I'm arrogantly discounting the evidence regarding Annual Giving and the grading policy's effects on post-graduation prospects, I would say that I am not claiming that these figures are wholly irrelevant, but rather they are not robust for bolstering specific claims. The crux of my argument is that it can be easy to give certain statistics in support of one's claims, but it is crucial to evaluate the sources of these statistics, possible incentives of these sources to bias the nature of the information they feed to you, and possible defects in the explanatory power of the statistics. With these standards, which are certainly reasonable ones, I cannot say that we have conclusive evidence on these matters.</p>

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<p>Bravo, or should I write brava? Your post is intelligent and reasonable. Thank you for identifying yourself as a current Princeton undergraduate. Though we disagree on the immediate and long term effects of this policy change, I must say that your writing skills indicate you personally have nothing to fear from grade deflation. </p>

<p>While I admit that further analysis would be useful I see nothing in the data provided by the University that would raise any red flags. I think it should also be remembered that this was not a policy change forced on the faculty by the administration. It was, I believe, approved by the faculty after much discussion. The many faculty members who voted for the change had (and I believe continue to have) the best interests of the students and the institution in mind.</p>

<p>I continue to believe that the current unhappiness shown by the undergraduates is a temporary phenomenon. Throughout Princeton’s history, students have been outraged by numerous institutional changes that they have later come to embrace and even advertise as strengths of their alma mater. As I wrote earlier, change can be unsettling. </p>

<p>You are correct that I personally haven’t experienced the policy. On the other hand, during my years at Princeton, average GPAs were actually lower. In other words, not as much grade inflation had occurred. Among the three schools to which the original poster referred, it appears that the most significant grade inflation exists at Yale. Harvard had a very public embarrassment for its ‘honors inflation’ a few years ago, when it was revealed that nearly all students were graduating with honors, but the average GPA at Harvard is relatively close to that at Princeton and the policy regarding the awarding of ‘honors’ designations has since changed. While the evidence in regard to Yale is much more statistically suspect it does appear that there may be a more serious issue of grade inflation there. This is based solely on the unscientific poll conducted by the Yale Daily News since the administration does not report these statistics. </p>

<p>I tend to agree with the Princeton faculty and administration on this issue. Grades are tools to allow students to assess their progress and achievements relative to their peers at the institution they attend. I frequently see the opinion expressed that because students at Princeton come from such a highly selective group, it should be expected that they are all ‘A’ students. First, it should be noted that not all students accepted to Princeton had a 4.0 in high school. Students are admitted to Princeton with a wide variety of talents and abilities not all of which are purely academic. More importantly, such an opinion seems to presume that Princeton students should be compared to students from across the nation and be graded on that basis. This is simply naïve. It may be true that a student who receives a B+ at Princeton would have received an A+ at a less competitive school. That doesn’t mean that employers and graduate schools are unaware of the differences between Princeton and that less competitive school. Finally, even in comparison with the other competitive schools, Princeton graduates will not be at a disadvantage as the policy is widely advertised and actually rather modest in its effect.</p>

<p>I’ve written enough. We disagree but I have much respect for your elegant prose.</p>

<p>Wondering Mum, do you feel as though your questions have been answered?</p>

16

<p>Ok, agree to disagree- <em>electronic handshake</em>. Sorry, I've been away for awhile. Don't get me started on how the policy was ratified, though; we'll be arguing for a couple more days.</p>