HS kids beat MIT in robot competition but can't go to college

Parents Forum
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<p>"A post was here for a minute, then disappeared, but it did bring up a good point to think about. It basically said that "undocumented" is a euphemism for "illegal." And do we want to give benefits to those here illegally? It is a good discussion topic."</p>

<p>"But the artlcle still broke my heart." -Digmedia</p>

<p>That was exactly my thought when I read the article. As proud as I am for those students to have overcome the obstacles they did to achieve such wonderful things, is it fair to reward them when they are here illegally? Obviously, the children were brought to the U.S. by parents or other relatives in an attempt to provide a better life, but I believe it is the responsibility of those who come to do so legally. I want to see people gain legal employment, pay taxes, contribute to society, become involved in the community, etc. I cannot condone giving scholarships to illegals when there are so many deserving students who are U.S. citizens. I am not one of those people who believe we should "close our borders", etc., but I do believe we should expect those who immigrate here to follow the same laws we U.S. citizens follow.</p>

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<p>No matter how smart those immigrants are, they are nonetheless illegal. I am the son of LEGAL Indian immigrants, and my parents waited in line to LEGALLY get into this country. Allowing these illegal aliens benefits is simply unfair. My cousin-in-law is still sitting in Canada, waiting to be allowed into the US, while border jumpers are granted full rides to MIT? That's ridiculous.</p>

<p>Good for them for achieving what they did. I'm sure a much better plan of approach for them would be to go back to Mexico and apply as international students from there.</p>

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<p>
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Private colleges can pretty much do what they choose, so it's a telling commentary when they choose to do nothing.</p>

<p>(But don't discount the possibility that there is more happening behind the scenes....)

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<p>Yeah, I think your parenthetical is important. It's not like colleges go out looking for the dramatic stories like this. it has to be brought to their attention, by Oprah or a journalist or a well-connected person. I don't know what the teachers or guidance counselors tried to do for these kids, but now that the story is 'out' I'd like to think there will be a happy ending, that there will be a college (or individual) with funds who will make a college education possible for any of these four boys who wants it. </p>

<p>Anyone read "Geeks" by Jon Katz, where the underachieving nerd ends up at U of Chicago? Or the Washington Post's series on the Masai girl who went to my alma mater, R-MWC? Or "A Hope in the Unseen" by Ron Suskind, where the inner-city kid goes to Brown? All represent private institutions stepping up to the plate to make a college education possible for very poor (and unconventional!) students.</p>

<p>I will say, however, that even if MIT took them all tomorrow with free rides, it sounds like these students play a big role in supporting their families. Would they leave? Could they?</p>

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<p>Anonymous, I won't start an entire debate on the immigration policies of the US. The issues are simply too complex for reaching quick conclusions. I do, however, want to make one quick comment on border jumpers. Despite the fact that the illegal emigration from Mexico gets the most attention, it is far from being the sole source of illegal immigration. </p>

<p>Do yourself a favor and ask your parents how many people they might know who (re)entered the country legally after having overstayed the original visas. The number of students or temporary technical workers who overstayed their allowed stays is staggering. The only difference is that the crime is perpetrated by higher educated people, which may make it worse in a way. </p>

<p>FWIW, the people who "got in" are usually turning into the staunchest anti-immigration advocates. This is not different than at the Border Patrol where the hispanics are typically the most vile, rotten to the core, and obnoxious officers -if that is even possible. </p>

<p>At this time, there are no real solutions for the illegal immigration. Finding long-term solutions will require more courage than our current crop of politicians currently have. </p>

<p>Denying education does not seem to be part of any long-term solutions that should be based on integration. Trying to police immigration via restricting access to education goes against the deeper intent of sound immigration policies. Illegals ARE living in the underground; legalizing their situation should be in the best interest of every US citizen, not only the beneficiaries.</p>

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<p>Hoedown, A Hope in the Unseen is a wonderful book! I recommend it frequently.</p>

<p>I do not think that telling someone to go back to "their" country when this may be the only one they've known is in any way helpful or realistic.</p>

<p>
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Denying education does not seem to be part of any long-term solution that should be based on integration.

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</p>

<p>Well said, Xiggi.</p>

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<p>Well, in what is not at all an unusual story, my grandfather, David Klopman, a Lithuanian Jewish silk merchant, ended up in Turkey after World War I with a Turkish passport. When he came to Ellis Island, they wouldn't let him in, not because he was Lithuanian, not because he was Jewish, not because he was Turkish, but because he was "Oriental". He spoke fluent French, and so he went to Montreal, changed the family name to Albert (pronounced without the "t", bought a watch that I have to this day with the initials "DHA" engraved on them (I have the watch to this day, and they are my initials - I am literally named after a watch), and came in as French Canadian. His children went to City College of New York at complete taxpayer expense - they paid "in-state" tuition - that is, NOTHING.</p>

<p>The demographic reality is that, by the year 2010, Hispanics will be the majority population in the three West Coast states, and will soon by the majority of voters. </p>

<p>For the past 20 years, a combination of illegal immigration and migrant workers have been what has shorn up the Social Security system. The so-called "crisis" in Social Security rests on the reality that fewer migrant workers return home without collecting on what they paid in, coupled with the fact that African Americans are now beginning to live to 65, so they are no longer providing benefits to the same degree to white folks.</p>

<p>It's cheaper to educate folks so that they are productive rather than taking care of them when they are not. It's not a matter of being "deserving" - just good business.</p>

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<p>ariesathena
...this all being said by a VA resident who probably cannot apply for in-state tuition to VA schools </p>

<p>Ariesathena - and why would the above happen??? If you are a VA resident - why could you not apply for in-state tuition to VA schools????</p>

<p>Sorry - did I miss something here??</p>

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<p>"I do not think that telling someone to go back to "their" country when this may be the only one they've known is in any way helpful or realistic."</p>

<p>I did not simply say that they should go back to Mexico. I intended to mean that they should temporarily go back to Mexico (I assume that would be their country of citizenship) and apply to MIT as international students. If MIT deems them fit for entrance, they will receive student visas, from which point they would have a fair chance of being legalized.</p>

<p>It is not a question of being anti-immigration, it is a question of upholding the values of our system and not supporting those who cheat that system by circumventing the rules. Why should Mexicans enter this country at a higher rate than the Chinese? Because they border us? Immigration policy is not intended to keep people out, it is intended to make sure that everybody who wants in receives a fair shot. It is about equality of opportunity to nationalities who may or may not be able to simply jump a fence to get in.</p>

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<p>"I did not simply say that they should go back to Mexico. I intended to mean that they should temporarily go back to Mexico (I assume that would be their country of citizenship) and apply to MIT as international students. If MIT deems them fit for entrance, they will receive student visas, from which point they would have a fair chance of being legalized. ... It is not a question of being anti-immigration, it is a question of upholding the values of our system and not supporting those who cheat that system by circumventing the rules."</p>

<p>Anonymous, your position was very clearly stated in your first post. Your subsequent statement clearly reflects a view of the system that is distorted by your own experience. I noticed that you skated around my first question about your parents knowing anyone who violated the terms of their stay. </p>

<p>In the meantime, allow me to point out your misunderstanding of students visas. Those visas are ABSOLUTELY NOT meant to provide a backdoor entry to the United States, and are not a path to become "legalized": students who receive visas are SUPPOSED to return home after graduation and not seek employment in the country before departing. Is that the way that foreign students understand the rules? Reading a few graduate school boards would easily show that the hidden purpose of many foreign students -especially from Asia- is to gain a foothold in the U.S.. </p>

<p>As far as the comparisons between third-world countries and Mexico, I would suggest to read a bit about the history of the border zone and the southern United States. You may also consider that the bonds among the three countries that form North America run a lot deeper than the bonds with the rest of the world. </p>

<p>Before discussing the values of our system, try to understand them a bit better! So spare us the veiled righteousness.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
So spare us the veiled righteousness.

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<p>Wow... so unxiggish. But we can all agree that the questions are difficult ones. I agree with xiggi that the North American bonds ARE deeper, especially as our country becomes more Hispanic. I also think that an0nym0u5 brought up a good point: if they cannot be considered as in-state, can they apply as internationals with a hook that can get them some dough....</p>

<p>xiggi: did you get my email with the judging forms??</p>

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<p>Okay, I'll answer your question. Do my parents know anyone who overstayed their visas? No, they do not. All of the immigrants we know went to college in India and made it over here as nurses (when this country was having a nursing shortage) and by endorsements from legal immigrants.</p>

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<p>AnOnymOu5 - do you know any Indians who pick cherries, asparagus, mint, or blueberries for a living, and live in cardboard boxes while doing so? How 'bout some who work in sweatshops sewing garments in south Los Angeles (or northern New Jersey)? </p>

<p>Just because the U.S. exploits the Indian medical system (and its higher education establishments) by having physicians and nurses trained there at no cost to American taxpayers doesn't say anything about the folks who pick our food, load our trucks, sew our clothes, build our homes, and keep our Social Security system solvent.</p>

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<p>Okay mini, what's your point?</p>

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<p>Indians are "legals" solely because the U.S. health care industry needs "legals" for their workforce; migrant laborers and etc. are "illegals" because U.S. industry needs low-grade workers who can't complain about working conditons. </p>

<p>There is no particular "moral" status attached to one's "legal" status; U.S. industry requires illegal Central Americans every bit as much as it does legal Indians. The big difference -- for you -- is that those illegal Central Americans are paying for your Social Security, and subsidizing the cost of your food.</p>

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<p>To get back to the personal level with these HS kids, my hope is that some influential person (someone with $$$) will read the magazine article and be as touched as I was and come to the rescue with some grants for an Arizona school.</p>

<p>A somewhat related story: When I was a supervisor at Bell Labs, I sent some of my employees through a program they had back then called OYOC (One year on campus). We hired promising people straight from undergrad, brought them in for the summer, then shipped them off to grad school (all expenses paid plus a salary stipend). I sent four people on OYOC from my group: one to UMich, one to Brown, one to Rutgers, and one to MIT. All did well except for the MIT guy. There was no doubt that he was very bright, very talented, and very driven to succeed. After all, it was not automatic; MIT had to accept him. But even though he was all of those things, he wasn't prepared for MIT in two ways: First, academically. Of course he had talent, but there were specific courses and "holes" in his education that made it difficult to complete his MS is one year (a requirement of ours). Second, I don't think that he was prepared for the social environment (or lack of, considering the massive amount of work required to try to overcome the first problem). I think we made a big mistake with that level of school for the particular background that fellow had. I'm convinced that he would have succeeded there if he had more time - say two years - to fill in those academic "holes." Or I think he would have succeeded if he had perhaps gone to a different school.</p>

<p>I might venture an opinion that the same MIGHT be true in the case of these HS kids as well. A place like MIT might not be the best successful undergrad place for them. But given a solid foundation, these guys certainly had the smarts to go on to grad school at MIT or anywhere else.</p>

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<p>Social security? Who thinks I'm gonna get social security when i retire? HA. But mini, I do not believe that illegal Central American labor is as necessary as you say, considering the number of jobs shipped overseas, but even if it is, it is still morally wrong to exploit illegal labor. I'm proud to say I do not shop at Wal-Mart.</p>

<p>And digmedia, I agree.</p>

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<p>You'll get no argument from me regarding the exploitation of labor (or shopping at Wal-Mart!) But if you don't consider "illegal" Central American labor to be necessary, just ask all the gov't representatives who've been involved in "Nannygates" over the past 5 years. ;) THEY clearly think it is necessary.</p>

<p>As for your Social Security - it will be there, provided the pool of "illegal" labor is increased - that's what has been supporting it for the past 20 years, and with the slow rise in African-American age of mortality, that's about all that will be left to support it.</p>

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<p>sorry to resurrect an old thread, i just read this story yesterday, and was extremely moved by it. I did not come into this country illegally (granted asylum) but even as a legal refugee, i have witness as well as experience the exploitation to new immigrants and well as illegal immigrants, and as many have said it is not pretty. I remember most clearly from when I was young, cutting the threads connecting the shirts my mom was making in a factory from 8am - 12am, it didn't feel like exploitation then because I was happy I was being useful and I got to "play" with my mom, but looking back, this was a factory in the US, and the conditions were horrible. to spare you my sob story, i'll just tell you my opinion on this particular story. </p>

<p>yes, i understand that a lot of legal residents are not going to college, and their story although not as public as these 4 boys would probably make you cry/touch your heart just as much. so why is this featured while the dreary life of so many legal immigrants go by unnoticed, uncared for? it may have to do with the fact that these kids outwitted MIT students with a budget of less than 10% of MIT, the fact that they had were given a special award, or just the fact that they beat the stereotype of teenage hispanic good for nothing except fixing your car getting girls pregnant and drugs (except for the fake jewelry flashing, they pretty much defied the rest of their stereotype). </p>

<p>i don't want to bring religion into this, but if you remember the story about how Jesus came to rescue a woman who had been accused of adultery? that you can caste the stone if you yourself are free of sin? How many of us here can sit here and said i have never broken the law? how many of us here can caste that stone on these kids, condemning them for being a product of unlawful activity? If they were born but a few years later in the US, and despite their parents being undocumented, this would be an non-issue, as they would be automatic US citizens. What is so different from them being children and snuck into the US with their parents and their little brother who was born here? I believe that they should be allowed to go to college, they would undoubtedly take FULL opportunity of what the college can offer them, they show promise, and productive futures if they could. </p>

<p>sure, if you say allowing undocumented children to go to college would result in thousands of spots taken that would have gone to someone who was here legally, but how is it fair when the younger brother can go to college but the older one can't? i can hardly see the logic in denying these kids because someone legal won't be able to go. i have yet to find a study done that has said anyone who has the ability to go to college (money, support, smarts) been unable to go. just as there is a projected shortage in doctors, and the medical schools have been asked to expand their student classes by 15%, then if these kids can go, i think we will be opening more schools, end up graduating more people from higher education, and in the end having a much more productive society.</p>

<p>anyways, i have more to say, i would love to hear what you have to say in support of or against. thanks</p>

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<p>I wouldn't begin to understand immigration law, but it seems I remember that during WW II a group of scientists were brought into the US, skirting quotas, to avoid Nazi persecution. There is precedent for individuals of "exceptional merit" to be treated differently by what is clearly a somewhat flawed system.</p>

<p>However, I would not support substantive change to allow children born of illegal immigrant parents in terms of citizenship UNLESS the law was applied to ALL, those of exceptional merit, and those of considerably less merit. </p>

<p>The idea of these kids going to Mexico and then applying to MIT is of course a flawed one for several reasons. They are educated in US schools and English is their primary academic language. To go to a school in Mexico, even with fluent conversational Spanish, is hardly trivial. Beyond this, MIT has very stringent intake of international students. Again, this is a bandaid solution to a significant problem. The true solution will have a broad scope and intent.</p>

<p>As for a granting foundation possibly wiling to take this on...why not Melinda and Bill Gates...surely this story would appeal to him!!</p>

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<p>Our country's immigration policy raises so many conundrums (conundra?)</p>

<p>Almost two decades ago, I was looking for someone to provide part-time in-home daycare to my then infant daughter. (My husband and I both worked primarily out of our homes at the time, and we needed someone to help out so we could get our work done and make it all happen.) </p>

<p>I interviewed a number of promising candidates, mostly students at nearby colleges, where I had listed the job in the student job offices.</p>

<p>One of the women who applied was not herself a student--she was the wife of an international grad student. She was legally in the country, but her visa (as the dependent of an international student) did not permit her to work here.</p>

<p>It was, in many ways, a heart-breaking situation. She and her husband were from China, and the Chinese government had forced them to leave their infant son behind, in order to ensure that they would return after the student finished his studies. </p>

<p>Their infant son was the same age as my own daughter, and the woman was looking for a job caring for a child that age, to heal the loss she was feeling. (Under the one-child policy, of course, their son would be the only child they would be allowed to have.)</p>

<p>The government, in essence, had forced her to choose between staying with her husband or staying with her child, and she would be missing a year of her son's childhood.</p>

<p>She was a lovely person and seemed very kind and caring.</p>

<p>In the end, I didn't have to agonize over the ethics of a hiring decision--she didn't particularly "connect" with my infant daughter (as other candidates had). And the language barrier also gave me some concerns about safety--I was afraid that we might not be able to clearly communicate instructions because we didn't know any Chinese and her English was quite limited.</p>

<p>So, in the end, I ended up hiring perfectly legal American-born students, but I've often thought what a shame it was that our country's immigration policies did not allow this woman to find a legal and fairly compensated way to offer her much-needed services in some appropriate setting. I could imagine settings--like a day care center or perhaps a Chinese-speaking family in need of childcare help or perhaps a family who wanted ther children to learn Chinese--in which she could have made wonderful contributions.</p>