<p>lextalionis, he did apply to Stanford, rejected.</p>
<p>^^kinda harsh, lex. </p>
<p>ramaswami already admitted that prestige was a primary 'fit' factor -- nothing wrong with that, IMO.</p>
<p>Bluebayou,</p>
<p>I get the feeling that ramaswami and I are "cut from the same cloth," so to speak, in that I'm thick-skinned and he appears to be so as well.</p>
<p>I enjoy ramaswami's cut-to-the-chase posts (what I've seen so far anyway!).</p>
<p>Actually, ramaswami, your actions in applying to all 8 Ivies for their so-called "signaling effects" is misguided and contrary to your stated beliefs. As I pointed out, Engineering rankings from USNews would have led your son to apply to a different set of schools than the 8 Ivies. Now, you admit that those rankings are a "better guide" to choosing schools than "hedonistic" notions of "fit." </p>
<p>However, I submit to you, that it is far more "hedonistic" to apply to all 8 Ivies when a more careful analysis would lead you to apply to a smaller subset.</p>
<p>And if you are such a big fan of "signaling effects," then you must realize that a degree from Cornell, for example, has far lower "signaling effects" than a degree from HYP and many other U.S. institutions. So why apply to those Ivy schools with lower "signaling effects"?</p>
<p>[btw, I've known many highly intelligent colleagues who went to Cornell undergrad; it's an excellent school, notwithstanding the fact that it would be considered to have a lower "signaling effect" than HYP . . . ]</p>
<p>lex, All the Ivies have better signaling effects than places that have better engineering schools such as UIUC or Purdue, UMichigan etc for engineering. If you want to be a solid engineer those schools make sense, but if you want to take engineering background to the financial world, the Ivies are better. Cornell, excels in engineering and is an Ivy with an excellent operations research school. We were not sure of HYP, not sure of even one Ivy, so mathematically you increase odds when you apply to all of them. Also, from admission season to season, and from Ivy to Ivy one never knows what they are looking for so all of them.</p>
<p>I used the hedonism of the college visit to describe the sensory hedonism of dining hall, dorm space, architecture, nearby galleries, restaurants, etc. The analysis of ratings, etc for their signaling value and choice of institutions based on these is of a different plane, not bodily, sensory pleasure but careful advantage over distant time.</p>
<p>"Third, prestige or brand consciousness, signaling effects are a more valid way to choose a school than the intangible "my son did not like XYZ or liked ABC". "</p>
<p>ramaswami, I do agree with you on this point. A student's feelings about a place may be fleeting and unreliable. For one thing, the feeling could be based on false perceptions derived from a one-time visit, and might be influenced by random things like one's affinity with the tour guide, how pleasant the weather was, or the people the kid happened to see on campus that day. As an example, S visited one school at the same time as a gay student convention was being held there. Until he learned about the convention, he had assumed that the school had a very high homosexual population. If he had made a decision based on that perception, it would have been inaccurate. The statistics, facts and student survey results collected by ranking organizations have got to be at least as reliable and are probably much more reliable as a guide than a "feeling." </p>
<p>BTW, in case you were referring to my post, I didn't mention the specific reasons (which were more than just feelings) my son didn't "like" Harvard and Brown because I was pretty certain that any remarks would derail the thread. When you've been on CC for a while, you learn what topics are hot button.</p>
<p>But, others make good points to you about some discrepancies in your process.</p>
<p>In addition to the obvious (like that they offer tremendous educational opportunities), there are really good reasons you would apply to all 8 ivies if you are a very competitive candidate- 1) If you live in the northeast, they are very conveniently located; 2) they are good-sized- not too big and not too small and there are not many highly competitive schools in the northeast in the mid-size range; 3) you may have alumni connections that have you considering a school you may otherwise not apply to; and 4) most importantly, admissions is a crap shoot, particularly at this level and you can't win if you don't play. There is no such thing as the perfect match school. College, like life, is what you make it. I'd much prefer that the admissions process be different but it isn't and we must do our best with the system as it is now.</p>
<p>GFG, what discrepancies? I would like to be educated. Unless one is very strongly motivated toward music or engineering, etc it is not a bad strategy for an academically strong student to apply to the top 10 USNews colleges. I submit it is a good way to go. At the end of the day, after all the arguments over importance of peer assessment score in USNews, etc the rankings are a good guide to the importance and role these colleges are playing in the nation's intellectual, cultural and political life. So, if you don't have special interests, such as wanting to go to a Baptist college, women's only college, etc, it makes excellent sense for someone wanting to study economics, say, to apply to the top 10 plus some top liberal arts colleges.</p>
<p>Why the diatribe against me for this?</p>
<p>I don't think there was a diatribe here from anyone. My last post more agreed with you more than disagreed. Echoing other posters, the discrepancies I was referring to had to do with applying to certain Ivies for engineering, since other schools are better ranked in that major. But, since I was interrupted while writing my post, by the time I submitted it, you had explained your child's career plans and it made more sense.</p>
<p>Would there be a type of student that you as parents would not encourage to attend any or most of the Ivy League schools? For example, if a child was a good but not brilliant student who probably got an admissions boost for athletics, would you send him or her anyway? Or would you worry a kid like this would feel intellectually out-of-place? Or if the student were not particularly self-confident, would you recommend an Ivy? Or would all the Type A achievers and go-getters be too intimidating? In other words, if we assume certain commonalities among these schools, would there be a type of kid for whom these elite schools would be ill-advised?</p>
<p>Slipper SEAS is a different School from CC not just a different course of study within Columbia College. Also, Columbia does not include the higher SEAS SAT scores in its USNEWS data so it works both ways.</p>
<p>As to the Dartmouth v. Columbia issue, that's the choice my daughter is facing. She has several others to pick from but that's what she's narrowed things down to. The situation arose for very good reasons. She did not get into her first choice. She applied to both schools because they are both about 2 hours from home and both have fantastic foreign language and government departments. They actually have a great deal in common. She, like most people, can make a happy life where ever she lands and can see virtues in both environments. The choice process is difficult, and also something for which we are grateful.</p>
<p>I have only read three posts in this thread so I apologize if my post is repetitious. Students apply to all eight Ivies for prestige as well as for the opportunity to be schooled in a culture of brilliant, motivated, high achieving students and professors; that is the most important unifying thread among the Ivy League schools.</p>
<p>but it is also in many other schools and to assume its this brilliant motivated culture when you see so many that do it for brand name, well....</p>
<p>Seeing the kids from Ds school that are going to Ivies...they are no more brilliant than many going to other schools</p>
<p>
[quote]
Seeing the kids from Ds school that are going to Ivies...they are no more brilliant than many going to other schools
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That may be true, but the highly tangible benefits of attending a highly selective school with nearly unmatched resources and strong brand names, a common characteristic of all Ivies, certainly make them highly desirable.</p>
<p>Trophy hunting was never my son's (or my) motive.</p>
<p>He applied to 6 of the 8 Ivies because he visited and like those six schools and understood that the randomness of Ivy admissions pushes one to apply to several if you want to get into one.</p>
<p>His results..........</p>
<p>Rejected by Yale, Princeton, Dartmouth & UPenn
Accepted by Cornell & Harvard. </p>
<p>Go figure........</p>
<p>GFG, sorry, I do realize you agreed with me mostly. You raised another valid point for the Ivy and that is the reverse of the question you raise: just as a vanilla good kid who got an athletics boost or a kid lacking type A characteristics should perhaps be wary of the top schools, the kid who has the competitive drive should consider all of them.</p>
<p>Why all of them? Rento3 makes the point: they are all in northeast and within driving distance of our home and admissions is a crapshoot. Also, the resources these schools have for overseas study, etc etc are unmatched.</p>
<p>Lex, to clarify, he didn't apply to all 8 to see if he could get into all or as many as he could, it was to maximize chances of getting into 1 or 2, so it is not trophy hunting in the sense of getting scalps.</p>
<p>Bluebayou, you asked for data source: Wall Street Journal 9/23/03, search on google using "feeder schools for graduate and professional schools" and it comes up. I am not good at cutting and pasting and attaching, etc.</p>
<p>The truth of the matter is that most Ivies and little Ivies, Williams, Swarthmore etc also Duke are excellent feeder schools.</p>
<p>That alone for all of you who have bashed me is proof that getting into one of the top 10 to 15 schools is an excellent strategy.</p>
<p>Columbia actually DOES use SEAS stats with USNEWS. All of their stats include SEAS.</p>
<p>ahh, yes, ramaswami, I assumed that's what you were referring to. But, of course, any AP Stat student could immediately point out the significant statistical flaws in the article -- for one, excluding Stanford Business School and UCSF Medical school...hmmmm.</p>
<p>But, just bcos I have a different evaluation criteria, doesn't mean your criteria doesn't work for you and your family; thus, no bashing from me. [What I found fault with earlier is the supposition that high scoring kids are only found in huge numbers ("grandmasters") the Ancient Eight.]</p>
<p>Prestige matters but in a way I never suspected. My oldest child is a junior at Yale and has received about a dozen offers for internships. Of these, about half are from overseas firms who clearly wanted an Ivy League kid for their summer program so in this sense prestige played an important factor. My younger child who loves outdoor sports opted for Dartmouth ED and almost immediately the local alumni association contacted us to offer any assistance. Let's be honest with ourselves, sending a child to any one of these ivy league schools does give a kid an advantage initially and we should not be so disingenuous about it.</p>