<p>"That where you go for undergrad does matter because of others' perceptions
and"</p>
<p>It really depends. There's so many variables involved, like what if the employer simply is not an idiot and does not judge people by where they went to college (after all, he could've just gotten in brcause he was a recruited athlete, legacy, etc., while someone who was way smarter didn't go because he was poor). And besides, if you go to somewhere unknown for undergrad but go to Harvard for grad school, people won't really care where you went to undergrad very much.</p>
<ol>
<li>"That the ranking system, while flawed, is not a conspiracy elaborately created by colleges but rather a decent way of judging the quality of education offered at a school"</li>
</ol>
<p>ok. My argument did not run counter to that statemen.</p>
<p>What exactly are you proposing? I don't get it? You seem to be angry because MIT and others accept the best students they can -- reason being because they want to improve their USNWR ranking?</p>
<p>Ok, so if there were no rankings would they take 3.5 - 1800's?</p>
<p>I don't get what you want? What is your solution? Actually, what is your problem?</p>
<p>Harvard was prestigious when no one applied. They'll be prestigious when everyone applies.</p>
<p>If you were railing against WUSTL -- I'd maybe see your point, but MIT really doesn't need to market itself.</p>
<p>I am annoyed becauase so many admissions people/ college leaders keep saying that the college admission system is too pressured and that the US News rankings are ridiculous and put too much pressure on kids and distort kids' thinking; the kids are influenced to feel that they should go to the most prestigious college instead of the right fit, and if they don't get in, they're failures.</p>
<p>However, (the vast majority of) these people are hypocrites as the actively support the US news rankings by giving out data to USNews and many times use their ranking to advertise and persuade people to come to their colleges.</p>
<p>The college people should start walking the walk and stop giving out their data to US News. Without that data, the USNews rankings would not be able to be conducted, and if colleges really convey their distaste for the ranking system, the rankings will ose prominence.</p>
<p>Seriously, the US News rankings represent the distortion of the college admissions process, as kids are too obsessed with prestige and "winning the game" to actually focus on finding the right fit, and the process has become to pressured and obsessive-compulsive.</p>
<p>I'm smart enough to not make such a big deal about the whole process, but some of my friends are breaking down.</p>
<p>Well, I'm certainly glad you're smart enough to discern fact from fiction and you've miraculously survived through these trying times.</p>
<p>Also, I think the tax system is seriously flawed ... Should I stop paying taxes? Hyperbolic I know, but you have a system that does what it's supposed to do -- and because we constantly harp on the negatives of that system we quite often forget that if we chop its head off, another will spring in it's place.</p>
<p>Jmanco -- there will always be tiers. Schools will fall and rise. People will have their own subjective rankings. Whether the USNWR exists or not, people will still strive to get into what they think are the top schools. </p>
<p>The cause of your buddies anguish has little to do with USNWR and more to do with their own insecurities.</p>
<p>If there were no us news rankings, a lot of people I know wouldn't feel as pressured.</p>
<p>Also, obviously it's not just usnews' fault for the hyper-intense climate concerning college admissions, but if the US news rankings ceased, it would be a huge signal and step, making kids think , "Hey maybe, it really doesn't matter that much if I go to a number 42 school versus a number 8. I mean, US News has stopped ranking schools even, maybe there is no such ting as a "number one college," where if you go somewhere lesser than the top tier schools, you're a failure. Maybe I shouldn't be so concerned about prestige and should focus on where I want to fit in."</p>
<p>Seriously, the US news rankings, the most widespread and influential ranking system in America, folding to send a message that it doesn't really matter where the prestige of where go to undergrad college, you should go somewhere that fits, would probably spark many people to really stop viewing college as a "game" and more as an exciting time to further their education.</p>
<p>"The cause of your buddies anguish has little to do with USNWR and more to do with their own insecurities."</p>
<p>That's like saying that the reason overweight girls feel so insecure about their body image is due to their own insecurities.</p>
<p>The reason they feel that way is because society thrusts an image onto them that girls MUST be very thin.</p>
<p>Same with colleges. Society creates an atmosphere that if high schoolers don't go to the prestigious college or whatever, the students are failures.
Most kids are not mature enough to simply resist and ignore society'sexpectations and pressures and think, oh well, everyone else is obsessed with getting into the best places, but I am going to be different and resist these expectations.</p>
<p>Seriously, kids are getting so worked up about something that doesn't even matter. These kids have SO many blessings, family, food on the table, progressive metal CD's, but many of them are getting so worked up and it's sad.</p>
<p>At least USnews could put a disclaimer on its college ranking issue saying basically "This list is kind of complete bull, as there is no way to really rank colleges. Use this list with a HUGE grain of salt.</p>
<p>"Well, I'm certainly glad you're smart enough to discern fact from fiction and you've miraculously survived through these trying times."</p>
<p>And for those who want to see which "tier" they're in?</p>
<p>For those who want an independent source to help them determine the differences between two or more schools?</p>
<p>For those who think peer assessment is a valid measure of past/future successes and think it should weigh heavily in any sort of ranking system? </p>
<p>If it's not USNWR, it's someone else? If it's not someone else, it's people on CC, it'll be someone encouraging their insecurities.</p>
<p>Using that logic, that would mean that the problem is not directly -- directly related to USNWR. It is related, but the bigger cause lies underneath.</p>
<p>I think the rankings in some ways are deficient, but your solution of abolishing them completely is less than wise.</p>
<p>jmanco, you mentioned that society views people as failures if they don't get into top unis. Ask most people outside the US and they'll say that they've never heard of lacs such as amherst or williams. if most of the world thinks that way, then i guess you're stuck with that stereotype.</p>
<p>Thank you, jmanco49, for your wise and thoughtful posts and for your concern about students. You are right on.</p>
<p>Why do we place such emphasis on USNWR rankings and whether a college is in the ivy league? The USNWR rankings are seriously flawed. Whats most important is the best fit for each student, and the actual quality of the education, not merely ranking or prestige.</p>
<p>Think beyond the name! Where will a student be happiest? What's most important is that students think honestly about which colleges provide the right match for them. It's important to look beyond dubious rankings and to research thoroughly an institutions academics, commitment to education, availability of good mentoring and advising, quality of teaching, culture, opportunities, values, social life, etc, offered at various colleges. Do the faculty value teaching? Are they rewarded for teaching quality or mainly for their research? Are students taught mostly by TAs?</p>
<p>Remember:</p>
<ol>
<li>The ratings from the US News & World Report are misleading and lead to a marketing of colleges rather than illuminating true quality and educational value. </li>
<li>One doesnt need to get into the ivy league to be successful in life. </li>
<li>The college/university from which one graduates does not determine who they are and how they contribute to the world.</li>
</ol>
<p>Consider the important work of the Education Conservancy, a non profit committed to improving the college admissions process: Education</a> Conservancy </p>
<p>
[quote]
Society creates an atmosphere that if high schoolers don't go to the prestigious college or whatever, the students are failures.
Most kids are not mature enough to simply resist and ignore society'sexpectations and pressures and think, oh well, everyone else is obsessed with getting into the best places, but I am going to be different and resist these expectations.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Shrug. My kids attend an upper middle class suburban high school (suburb of a major city) and people don't pay much attention to USNWR ratings at all. They're not Ivy obsessed, and the state flagships and other state schools are just fine. No one sits around thinking that people who don't go to Ivies or similar schools are failures. Other people are right, that's YOUR own insecurities talking. YOU feel bad / jealous you aren't going to HYP, so instead of enjoying your (absolutely top notch and nothing to be ashamed about) Rice experience, you're acting as though other people overstate the importance of prestige. Methinks that <em>you're</em> the one obsessed with it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Also, obviously it's not just usnews' fault for the hyper-intense climate concerning college admissions, but if the US news rankings ceased, it would be a huge signal and step, making kids think , "Hey maybe, it really doesn't matter that much if I go to a number 42 school versus a number 8. I mean, US News has stopped ranking schools even, maybe there is no such ting as a "number one college," where if you go somewhere lesser than the top tier schools, you're a failure. Maybe I shouldn't be so concerned about prestige and should focus on where I want to fit in."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You totally obsess over USNWR. Aren't you aware that for the vast majority of people in this country, USNWR is a magazine that they don't even read or know about, and for the vast majority of educated people in this country, USNWR is just a news magazine that, oh, once a year happens to publish some stuff about colleges? Really, USNWR is not the Holy Grail of Existence.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It's OUR HYPER-COMPETITIVE culture that wants labels and shortcuts. Read the tons of 8th and 9th graders who are lured by "Ivy" when they don't know the first thing about what it is to derive a great undergraduate education. It pains me the never-ending stream of people who look to the Ivy label as the be-all and end-all.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree 100%. And posters with names that suggest that the end game is an Ivy -- don't care which one, but it's got to be an Ivy! -- drive me up to the wall.</p>
<p>
[quote]
When I was accepted by my HYP alma mater, I had no idea about "rankings". Sure I was aware of the "name recognition" but in October of my Senior year, a top midwestern school had accepted me and was plying me with tons of $. Thanksgiving of my Senior year, I drove a friend to this HYP info session and was blown away. I had no Ivy dreams previously but I was sold. I applied and was admitted. No one made me feel lesser if I hadn't gone there. The school itself sold me -- not some fear of societal inadequacy.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Totally. What kind of person, anyway, gets accepted to several top schools and then looks to USNWR rankings to be the tie-breaker, as opposed to looking at personal fit and preference? It's so odd.</p>