I am about to pull my hairs out!

Parents Forum
41

<p>I'm in the let your daughter figure her way through this. I think the situation you're in is one of the toughest for a parent ... you want to help your child achieve their goal or do their best and they do not agree with your recommendations. For me this is one of the biggest areas I have modified my parentling over the years ... moving towards doing things my kid's way. I made this move because as I realized I was parenting like my parents ... in ways they tried to help me and were actually often being counter productive.</p>

<p>I do not know you or your daughter but her actions are hers and may match her goals and aspirations as she sees them. How could her actions make sense.</p>

<ul>
<li><p>She might believe that studying for SATs and SAT IIs is a bad strategy ... that the test should reflect what she learned at school and not what she crammed ... and that inflating her test grade by studying may push her into a school where she always needs to study to keep up. In other words ... her natural test scores will lead to a better fit school where she can lead a balanced life. (BTW - I believe this one and on her own firsttogo essentially told me the same ... and I was impressed and proud)</p></li>
<li><p>She might do worse on exams if she crams for them ... she may be past diminishing returns on the subject (this would be firsttogo and secondtogo)</p></li>
<li><p>She might do worse on exams if she doesn't do something to take her mind off them right before them (this would be me and secondtogo)</p></li>
<li><p>She might be a stealth studier and be more prepared than you think ... and being 17/18 might be loathe to let you know especially since you're pushing her on the subject (this would be me and secondtogo)</p></li>
<li><p>She may have incapatible goals ... reaching for top tier schools ... needing to study to get high enough tests ... not willing to study enough to reach those goals. (this would be me at that age and secondtogo)</p></li>
<li><p>Etc</p></li>
</ul>

<p>I've learned to not assume I know what is in my kid's heads ... they are usually acting in a way they perceive as consistant ... and which is pretty consistant ... it's just I am not looking at the world through their eyes. And for me I realized when I push on them I am minimizing the effort they have made and trivalizing their values and decisions ... and that's why I've made a full 180 on this one.</p>

42

<p>If you read my OP, my frustrations are really two fold - one is about this SAT II and the really big one is the choice/logic of taking on this crew task.</p>

<p>I asked D about if she sees any other top 10 seniors there and her answer was " I don't know". If she weres doing a project to rescue a dying willy, it could be understood. But a creditless crew role that any kid could do? When everyone else is either working on their essay, application, test, or their "huge" project for AP history? </p>

<p>Adm office will not know this "crew" thing she spent two weeks working every night. They will not know that no one else want to do this so she jumped in. All they will see is less prepared essay and lower test scores. </p>

<p>I know nagging does not work and could only have a negative effect. But this logic of jumpong in a big time hole for insignificant things got to change. </p>

<p>DW said she will picked DD up tonight at 10:10 PM and go straight to bed. I am going to keep my mouth tightly shut. </p>

<p>BTW, we offered to let her sleep in or take her to school but she rejected both of them. But she was so tired that she missed morning school bus. </p>

<p>While doing this crew, she is also doing XC. Yesterday, after school, she went for a practice run and then went to do the crew until 10:20 PM. She is doing simply too much and the only "no" she said will be to her family.</p>

43

<h1>1 -- I applaud you for the decision to keep your "mouth tightly shut."</h1>

<h1>2 -- Based on your statement that there is no "logic" in taking on "a creditless crew role that any kid could do" -- I don't think you are going to ever understand your daughter.</h1>

<p>Try to understand this: Many people -- perhaps most people -- do things in life for the pleasure and sense of fulfillment it brings them, not for the "credit" they can get. Certainly the happiest people follow this approach. </p>

<p>Someday your highly educated daughter may give up a financially lucrative career to stay home and change poopy diapers all day. I know it seems really odd, but I'll bet if you took a poll of this board you will find a lot of extremely smart and accomplished women who made that choice and are glad that they did. </p>

<h1>3 -- "But this logic of jumping in a big time hole for insignificant things got to change." -- I think what needs to change is your attitude about what is "significant". Your daughter has made this choice because she feels good about what she is doing; it is rewarding. She is able to enjoy the pleasure of doing something for its own sake -without having to think about who she is impressing. Even if you see life as a set of logical choices, others are looking for emotional fulfillment.</h1>

44

<p>Well, if it's any consolation to you, my kids were the same, and it all worked out. No HYPS, didn't even apply (thought they couldn't get in) but accepted many places just below that, with the memories of high school they wanted to take with them.</p>

<p>DS chose to do school play, not big role, zillions of hours rehearsing, over his opportunity to place at Lincoln Center with an excellent orcestra. Guess which I was rooting for? But his life; his choice. He doesn't regret it at all.</p>

45

<p>I cannot help but jump in again....;)</p>

<p>
[quote]
I asked D about if she sees any other top 10 seniors there and her answer was " I don't know". If she weres doing a project to rescue a dying willy, it could be understood. But a creditless crew role that any kid could do? When everyone else is either working on their essay, application, test, or their "huge" project for AP history? </p>

<p>Adm office will not know this "crew" thing she spent two weeks working every night. They will not know that no one else want to do this so she jumped in. All they will see is less prepared essay and lower test scores. </p>

<p>I know nagging does not work and could only have a negative effect. But this logic of jumpong in a big time hole for insignificant things got to change.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I do not agree at ALL with this sentiment, though obviously it is how YOU feel. First, what does "top ten seniors" have to do with doing crew for the theater productions??? Sorry, but the top students in our school are precisely the ones heavily committed in ECs. Mine were and so were peers of their type. And since when is crew beneathe them? I recall the valedictorian at our school doing stage managing and crew when my kid was an actor in the productions. Further, valdiictorians and salutatorians were IN the cast and at the theater to all hours daily during "hell week" (the week before opening). Is crew not important to you? Well, the teamwork is important to your daughter. Bravo to her. </p>

<p>It seems like you evaluate the worth of her chosen endeavors as to whether or not they will look good on the college admissions resume or whether they will "count." It sounds to me like your D is like mine.....an activity after school and one at night and they loved both and did them because they wanted to without one thought as to what would look good on an application. In fact, I believe colleges looked favorably at kids who were dedicated to their interests for the sake of their wanting to do those things and not for what is worth it to get into college. Then you mention that the admissions office will not know she did this. Wrong. Your D should have an annotated resume that lists all of her activities and she can list crew and how many hours she spent on it and in the annotation she can show why she chose to get involved and what she got out of it. But that is besides the point.....your D did it as she was interested and cared about it. You may not see it as worthwhile but SHE does. And besides that, I admire her to not just think about the glory jobs such as those ON stage. A theatrical production could not run without a dedicated crew team. I have a child in a theater degree program in college and even though she never plans to have a job on crew, she was required to crew two shows. Even at a professional theater job where she was an actor, she also had crew requirements. And guess what? She is a top student too. I do not get why you think top 10 students shouldn't be doing this. Either you think the activity is not worthy enough OR you think she should be home studying and not heavily committed to ECs. On both counts, I disagree. The activity is worthy in that she wanted to do it and it helps her school. And strong students tend to be the types that are heavily committed to ECs. Top colleges actually look for that (since you care about what they will value). </p>

<p>I have kids who are overly committed to activities, but I would not attempt to change a thing. They love what they do. They didn't do these things to get into college. In fact, they are now IN college and over extended with activities from early AM (for one of my kids....it is REALLY early AM!) until very late at night and on weekends. They would not have it any other way and nothing is at stake either regarding admissions. </p>

<p>My kids took the SATs, just like your D is doing. And they had activities every single afternoon and every single evening and on weekends. They managed to do 8 individualized applications (no common ones), their testing, one even had auditions to prepare and travel to as part of college admissions, and managed to fit it in and get top grades (one was even val). I understand your concern but as I mentioned in another post, you could ask your D her goals, and what she thinks she needs to do to reach them, make sure her college list is appropriate and well balanced, and then it is up to her to make the choices as long as she knows what needs to be done to get where she wants. I also would be concerned that your D has it set up for possible disappointment as she seems too locked into two schools or bust, when both are highly competitive and one you say she can only attend if she receives merit aid which is even more difficult at a school like Wash U where she would have to be at the top of the heap and I don't mean test scores!</p>

<p>Susan</p>

46

<p>My d's thoughts? "If a school doesn't want me because I chose to dance and teach during high school, instead of getting a few more points on a test or an A- instead of a B+, then it's the wrong school for me anyway." I couldn't argue with that teenage logic. </p>

<p>And she's attending a great school now, BTW, even though she got 560 on one SAT II (oh, the shame!).</p>

47

<p>You have to know that just because some kid is home, that doesn't mean they are beig productive on their applications</p>

<p>My D was very busy during that time, and it was when she was in the costume room, focusing on any BUT college for a few hours, did the ideas for her essays pop into her head</p>

<p>I never saw one essay, one application at all- okay well once, part of one (she wanted to be sure the family information was correct)</p>

<p>As for doing this crew thing, some of the best times both my Ds have is being part of the productionsa at school</p>

<p>Good for you D stepping up and being responsible for her school</p>

<p>The test score will not be the make or break part of the application- great score is no guarantee of admission and an okay score is no gurantee or rejection</p>

48

<p>I know it's probably too late for DadII, but here is where the college coach comes in. Yes, I paid some one basically to nag my daughter. She convinced her to pick a range of choices she would be happy at, she told her what tests she needed to take, and when. She warned her what was a good score and what wasn't, and what needed to be retaken. The college coach promised us from the start that in the end, my daughter would have several good choices to choose from. And sure enough, she did, and she is now an extremely happy freshman. And she's still speaking to us. </p>

<p>The entire college adminissions process is a very personal step for our kids. The first real choice in their life they have to really own. It's extremely hard for us, as parents, who want everything for them, to step back and let them do it their way. But that's really how it has to be.</p>

49

<p>Dad II,</p>

<p>As far as content for Math 2C, after last spring fiasco with the test, I looked closely into that. There is Geometry, including solid (3D) geometry, algebra II and Pre-Calc. The biggest stumbling block for my D were probabilities and permutations that are part of test as well. Even though my DD is on a pretty advanced math track (she is taking AP Calc AB her Junior year), without studying she could not go over 700.</p>

<p>I might be in the minority here, but I do not believe in comments like "kids need to figure it out for themselves" or "it is their life, what are you going to do?" My DD is a 16-year-old, what kind of "figuring out" are you expecting from a teenager? I feel it is my responsibility to set goals for D and challenge her to succeed (with "sticks and carrots" when necessary).</p>

<p>Ask your D to take Barron's practice test. If she does mid-600 - it's good, since Barron's is tougher than a real thing. Anything less than 600, she will be wasting her time on the test - tell her to reschedule for November.</p>

<p>Bob.</p>

50

<p>I'm sorry to sound like a broken record, but some of you seem unaware that it is Dad II's daughter and (evidently) her high school guidance counselor who have created the problem: daughter, with g.c. blessing, has put together a list almost wholly lacking admission and financial safeties. The daughter has announced she has no intention of considering even Vanderbilt, and at an earlier stage said the same thing about State U. Dad's concern is that daughter's behavior is not consistent with her stated goals.</p>

<p>I don't disagree with any of you that e.c activities are more worthwhile than yet another test. My son had the same attitude (although he is a phenomenal test taker so the tension was far less on that score). However, my son's list contained a lot of schools that were, for him, pretty safe bets. His behavior was consistent with his own stated goals.</p>

<p>Dad's daughter should either forget about the e.c.s for the time being OR do something about that list! I would vote for the latter, Dad II would vote for the latter.</p>

51

<p>Bob...some of us, myself included, DO feel a parent should guide their child....ask them THEIR goals....review what it takes to reach those goals......for instance, with testing, go over what plan they will put in place to achieve their goals.....check in from time to time, etc. The kid has to buy into the plan....it is their goal, not ours. But a parent has a place in it.....go over the steps needed to reach the goal and check in with them. If they don't want to do those steps, then reevaluate the goal. The student still owns the process and it is not the parents' goals. But the parent plays a role in guiding the student as far as what it realistically might take to do get to point X (that the child has defined as wanting to get to). If the child has no motivation to do so, then discuss what the lack of effort may mean....readjust college list? goals? etc. If the kid has no desire to do it, there is so much you can do. My own kids WANTED to do these things and we discussed plans they might put in place and I was involved as a support, but I wasn't making them do it. </p>

<p>I certainly would guide a student to take a practice test to get a baseline and then set a goal and do more practice timed tests and review concepts and strategies and see if they are improving and if so, sign up for the test. My kids did that.....they were not obssessed with testing but they did a few practice tests and went over it before taking the real tests. We discussed it but I was not forcing them to do it...I was advising them. </p>

<p>UCDAlum....I had to smile at your post. I work as a college counselor and I do indeed believe that ONE benefit with a counselor is that it can be hard to work with your own child who takes things personally and there is just another layer there. But to have an outsider who is guiding them, they tend to listen more. I sometimes tell parents, I am "nag central." I don't have emotional baggage with each student. I am in almost daily contact with them and I do tell them what they need to do. I have had parents write me letters thanking me because their kid won't listen to them but when they heard it from me, they got the message loud and clear. LOL</p>

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<p>Midmo...I totally agree that if DadII's D has these lofty goals and is limiting herself to a couple very hard schools or bust (bad plan), he has to go over what it takes to get there and how realistic or not that may be and readjust the list. If she wants that badly, she must do X, Y, Z and if not, she needs to pick schools that are realistic. On top of that, even if Cornell and WashU are in her ballpark (they likely ARE), it is unrealistic in terms of the admit rate odds to count on them, let alone merit aid. It is a set up for disappointment. I think her list needs much more balance no matter what she is doing to prepare and apply but even more so if she doesn't want to put 100% effort into apps, essays ,tests, etc. to get there (I only heard DadII's version but will go with what he is saying is the case to make this point).</p>

<p>On the other hand, I feel that the GC and the dad are too wrapped up on test scores and getting them into "perfect" range when she already has excellent scores....and we have had many threads with DadII that at elite colleges, once your scores are over a certain threshhold, the deciding factor is not some points this way or that but everything else matters as they have plenty of students who have the requisite stats. Perfect scores are not needed. If anything, those ECs might help more than another 30 points on an SAT subject test or another point on the ACT if she is already in the ballpark (my understanding is that his D may have approx. a 34 ACT already).</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I'm sorry to sound like a broken record, but some of you seem unaware that it is Dad II's daughter and (evidently) her high school guidance counselor who have created the problem: daughter, with g.c. blessing, has put together a list almost wholly lacking admission and financial safeties.

[/quote]
depending on the student this may not be the wrong list ... some students do not want to consider "safety" schools ... I do not really have a problem with that as long as they realize there is a pretty good chance they may be facing a gap year ... and then the second year I'd make my paying contigent on the lsit being a little more inclusive. IMO 17/18/19 is a time for shooting for the stars and possibly not "settling" until they have given the dream a couple chances <em>IF</em> that is the kids dream.</p>

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<p>As a follow-up, some of you have stated that a lousy score on the math II exam might knock some sense into daughter's head and lead her to take a more realistic approach to her college selection. Perhaps. But the gc at her hs seems addicted to scattergrams and placement "histories" and seems to have convinced daughter that she is a shoo-in for some of the schools on the list.</p>

<p>Of course, she/he is not paying the bill. </p>

<p>The issue of merit scholarships at Wash U keeps coming up. I think Dad II knows how difficult it is to land one of them. He also knows it is more likely that daughter will be successful on that score at Vanderbilt; unfortunately, daughter doesn't want to consider Vanderbilt. </p>

<p>Dad II, just let her decide what to do about this weekend. Then, let everybody cool down for a few days without bringing up the subject. I have a stubborn, reactive-type daughter (10th grader). Almost always, a few days after rejecting her parents' suggestions about how to deal with some difficulty or other, she comes up with a "new" approach to a problem, that, lo and behold, is the same one we already suggested. But it has to seem to her like it was her idea. Very frustrating.</p>

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<p>Midmo - that doesn't really change anything. If the OP's D is bent on doing these things, trying to force her in another direction is not going to help. In fact, it will likely hurt the situation more. If she gets a poor score (and we don't yet know if she will), then she will be more willing to reevaluate her college list. She has obviously been unwilling to do so thus far - why would more nagging or demands change that? Teenagers don't always see the long view until they are faced with something concrete, such as test scores, GPA, rejection letters, etc. And whether or not she will "consider" State U is besides the point. If she is rejected from Cornell and WashU, I'm betting she'll be more willing to consider StateU.</p>

<p>And Bob, yes, a 16 year old is fully capable of making plans. It may be a more tortuous road, but they can do it, and having them take responsibility for big things in high school helps them be far more independent and successful in college. Don't think of 16 as being too young to know anything - think of it as only 2 years left to get adult experiences under supervision.</p>

56

<p>3togo, I think the gap year may be what Dad II's daughter will be looking at. I even suggested to him in an earlier thread that it might be a good idea, as a way of developing some maturity and independence. (It hasn't come up on this thread, but daughter's list was developed by giving her best friends veto power over the schools on the list.)</p>

57

<p>Dad II, is your daughter only 16, and a senior? This would explain some of the immaturity. If she is this young, a gap year spent working, traveling, volunteering, whatever appeals to her would certainly be something I'd applaud.</p>

<p>Your daughter's future will not be ruined if she doesn't get admitted to her top choice schools. Your relationship with her may be, though, if you continue to place your goals for her ahead of her own. While her angry comment was the result of exhaustion and frustration, it's also likely that she believes you are too invested in the outcome of her admissions. She so much as said so.</p>

<p>What have you gained if she gets in to her dream school but wants little to do with her father?</p>

58

<p>Does she even need Math2? Even MIT was fine with Math1! </p>

<p>Math2 has a pretty wicked curve. And while I've always assumed you get some brownie points for taking the harder math test, most schools say they don't care which math test you take.</p>

59

<p>Vandy's not a shoe-in either, or at least it wasn't when I applied in 2002. I'm surprised people on this thread seem to be regarding it as a safety.</p>

<p>The worst-case scenario here is that she gets in nowhere and takes a gap year, during which she could do something productive and fun. I have a friend who graduated at 16 and spent two years working full-time for a railroad company before going to college. Other kids do stuff like spending a year doing service abroad.</p>

<p>Perhaps ask her what it is that she likes about her top choices, and see if the two of you can figure out other schools with higher admissions rates that have those attributes.</p>

<p>@mathmom: Math IIC looks a bit better, as it's more advanced, and it actually has a somewhat more lenient grading curve most years. Typically a single careless mistake hurts you a LOT more on IC than it does on IIC, because the distribution of raw scores is more skewed.</p>

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<p>ASAP wrote:

[quote]
Your daughter's future will not be ruined if she doesn't get admitted to her top choice schools. Your relationship with her may be, though, if you continue to place your goals for her ahead of her own.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>DadII wrote:

[quote]
I said I am doing this because we care about you and love you. Her answer was "yet, so I am here just to fail so I could rain your life".

[/quote]
</p>

<p>DadII....when I read what your D said to you last night, I was thinking what ASAP has now posted but kept myself from posting it. I know paying3tuitions said your D may have said that because she was so tired and that may likely be so as teens do sometimes say some over the top things to get to us. But I would be concerned with the underlying meaning. I know you care and love your D and that is your motivation but your D sounds concerned that if she does or doesn't do X, or get into Y, that she will be letting down the goals YOU have for her. It comes across that she is worried about goals you have set and that whatever she does or wherever she gets into school might "ruin" your life (obviously she gave an over the top expression). </p>

<p>But truly, a lot of your posts that outline your concerns about testing and admissions and what not....come across as goals YOU have. You love your D and that is understandable and admirable. But in my view (though I might have trouble saying this to you directly but you have posted thread after thread inviting comments), is that you should be letting her take the lead and supporting her choices as it is her life. That doens't mean hands-off but it means something more like: "What do you want to do for college? Where do you want to go? what are your goals? Here is what you need to get there.....are these things you want to do or if not, what realistically can you do....and should the goals be readjusted or the steps taken readjusted? and look at what she wants and advise her about how to reach it, but the goals are hers to make and if her choices aren't yours, then they aren't. Provide guidance and advice based on your knowledge, but support her choices. Explain what is realistic. Explain that if she does X, then Y is a likely outcome and if she does A, then B could happen. You can guide and faciiltate but she needs to own the process, the decisions, and the goals. She shouldn't be thinking about what schools or test scores would please YOU, in other words. My kids picked their schools and we accepted any that they wanted (though took an interest and guided them in talking about them) and we accepted any choice of major, and whatever level of SATs they would be satisfied with before stopping....they each set a goal and when they went over it, they stoppd and the goal was not nearly perfect scores either (and they got into almost all of their schools....selective ones....fancy that). Whose goal is it in your family to reach a certain score? Do you care what the score is? I only cared that my kids reached the goal they had set for themselves. I supported them along the way. I didn't have a goal in mind for them. You may wish to really look at the comment your D made. Is this to please you or to please herself?</p>

<p>By the way, I have a child who completed all of her standardized testing at age 15 in tenth grade. She set a threshold.....took it twice in spring of that year, met it and stopped. She did not seek perfect scores. She sought scores that were definitely in the ballpark for every school she wanted. My other kid did the same but was 16 when she took her tests. I don't know what your D is striving for but perfect scores are not necessary.</p>