I am about to pull my hairs out!

Parents Forum
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What have you gained if she gets in to her dream school but wants little to do with her father?

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<p>^^oh my, this poor guy is going to pull out all the remaining hairs.</p>

<p>Timing is everything, including for a distraught dad. I commend you and DW for simply pulling back enough to get through these 24 hours (letting her sleep in; and she overslept, so she sure was pulled thin here!); and DW will give her a fast ride home tonight right after the play. Dad has resolved to keep quiet until this weekend is over, and he sounds like the disciplined, logical person who will do just what he promised himself.</p>

<p>After this weekend, and she's had a good chance to sleep off the excitement of the play, all 3 will be able to handle longer time questions (the list, the balance of priorities) SO much better.</p>

<p>This weekend, there's no harm to just put an arm around her, congratulate her for being part of a team at school (we all read how important teamwork is in the future workplace, right?). I'm guessing she'll feel very proud of the GROUP's accomplishment when the play is a hit.</p>

<p>Theater teaches: teamwork, discipline, preparation, concentration. Same reason parents promote sports, BTW. She will have grown from this theater weekend, and if you approve of it and smile upon it (even though it mystifies you now), she might grow from having done it.</p>

<p>Then you can point to her success. If you could have had a crystal ball, you'd all know not to be in a play that runs on an SAT weekend, but you didn't know. It's not the end of the world, by any means! </p>

<p>Very true that she'll have a good EC to list on her college application, that shows she has spirit for the group and not just her own individual goals. COlleges appreciate that, it expresses good character. </p>

<p>I had this same discussion in my S's senior year with a gentleman who was dutifully videotaping his D onstage. He happend to be Asian, and their family had never yet gone into anything with theater. I congratulated him on her performance but he shook his head, "I just don't get it. She's a top student in Chemistry and yet she wanted to do this thing so much." I think they might have battled it out at home also. I gave him the same POV as above, how theater teaches teamwork, discipline, etc. and a chemist will need all of that someday. He said over and over, "She just said she wanted to do this SO much, I still don't get why." </p>

<p>Anyway, easy points now just to support and congratulate her for the play's success. It will make her feel better about herself, you, and even do her best on the SAT. Try not to worry.</p>

<p>I agree she'll need to adjust the list, after all this dust clears. You could surprise her by taking her out to icecream to celebrate (it just takes an hour) as a family that she tried something different (theater) so that shows courage.</p>

<p>This weekend is a great opportunity to say, with a few words, smiles or icecreams, that you approve of her (in general). Then she might listen better when you all revisit her list of colleges and get more practical together.</p>

<p>It is not easy when kids do things that absolutely mystify us.</p>

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<p>Re read Cal mom's post #26 until you get it. Especially the part where she says "since you are perfectly fine with a state U...you can let it go."</p>

<p>Leave your hair where it is, stop nagging her and let the chips fall where they may. Yes, she wants to go to Vandy No, she is not jumping through the hoops required for her to do so. Stop trying to force her or as other posts have said, you will ruin your relationship. Let her be disappointed,it's not like you didn't warn her.</p>

<p>I am sure you would rather your children attend community college and transfer, or even no college at all than ruin your relationship.</p>

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<p>Beware--one of the hardest things to do in the world is to refrain from saying, "I told you so," should an unwanted result come about!</p>

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<p>absolutely^^^ When/If the time comes where the disappointment happens be as supportive as you can be. She will know you told her so and will appreciate you not bringing it up.</p>

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<p>This dad might not be willing to take the consequences of "backing off" so far that he would see his D get wrecked up and have to go to no college, or community college. That's so easy to say to someone else; could you really do it yourself? I could not.</p>

<p>To suggest totally backing off would be like saying to him, "you know that ladder that you're holding and she's standing on it? Pull it out from under her so she'll realize that you were the one holding it and from now on she'll have to hold herself up." He's not willing to watch her break her neck, metaphorically speaking.</p>

<p>Perhaps he could withdraw or chill somewhat, but only in partnership with her showing more maturity, too. </p>

<p>My radical suggestion is that since he's the adult, and someone has to make the first move here to get the relationship less of a power struggle, it's his to show the "new pattern" first.</p>

<p>I believe when there's a power struggle going on, that one of the parties has to ease up the pull on the tug-of-war first. She's unlikely to, because she's dug herself a hole in the ground so deep she doesn't know how to get out and still save face, save her pride that she wasn't "l00% wrong" in her approach.</p>

<p>SOmetimes it works with kids (they are kids still) to be counter-intuitive. When they seem to be rebellious, instead of fighting it out, try to find something (anythng) to agree with them about. It simply relaxes them so they stop fighting like a mad dog in a pit. </p>

<p>Since I'm from a theater family, I'm suggesting something different for this weekend: Praise her work in the theater group. I know you want to spit nails at that project, but even so. Have you thought of attending it, you and your wife, just to be proud of her that she's part of it? And you'd having something to share together, because you'll know all the plot and characters.
For this moment, that's what she's excited about. If she were playing in an orchestra this weekend, I'm sure you'd also go to be in the audience. When you see how the audience claps, laughs and gets excited for the fellow students on stage, you'll be sharing with what she's been feeling. It could bring you closer together. You could ask her an interested question about the crew work; where did they get the props from? how did the girl do that costume change so fast backstage? was it hard to synchronize the lighting with the singing, etc. </p>

<p>This could all happen this weekend. You'll all feel much better by Sunday evening, I'm sure. The test will be over, probably the play, too. Take her out to a meal to celebrate her being in the play. That's what I'd do, honestly. She mioght have a responsibility to tear down the stage set when the show does its last performance, so if she says she has to, that's for real. It is considered the height of irresponsibility to not help when it's time to take it all down and clean up. So let her finish out her responsibility l00%, to save face with that group. It's good for her character, too, to finish whatever she starts (even though you wish she never started it).</p>

<p>Then everyone might be happier and able to work together in the coming weeks to adjust the college application process. </p>

<p>At the very least, send her off tonight with the classic "good luck" wish for the theater (you won't believe this but this is what to say), "Break a leg!"</p>

<p>Not that you want her to break a leg! There's a history to this phrase. Some say it refers to the actors bowing to the audience in Shakespeare's time (break a leg, in other words, bend the knee to take a bow). Others say it's superstitious, as in "if you say it out loud, the worst won't happen." Anyway, actors and crew say it to each other, like "high five" and it means "good luck in the show tonight." It's considered bad luck to actually say "good luck."
If she's heard of this expression, she'll be surprised and maybe pleased that you know it too, and took the interest to research it, meeting her "halfway."</p>

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<p>Remember? I'm the one with the brilliant son who never studied for any kind of test in his whole life -- not with consistently great results, either. I have very little to add to this discussion other than that this too will pass. If he had dedicated 10% of the energy to studying that he did to practically everything else he would be at MIT or Caltech today.</p>

<p>If I had any insights into this I would have tried them on my own son. </p>

<p>I just found the wording of the thread title to be intriguing. Apologies if this detracted from the discussion.</p>

<p>And while my nose might be hairy, at least I keep it neatly braided.</p>

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<p>jessiehl, regarding the Vanderbilt admission:</p>

<p>Others have made the point that Vanderbilt is not necessarily a shoo-in, but her school sends a large number of students there every year, according to Dad II, and the guidance counselor has told them there is no way she will not be accepted. It is the merit award that is in question. Neither daughter nor Dad is particularly interested in Vanderbilt--I think--absent a merit scholarship. Hence, the extreme concern with the standardized test scores. It is true that merit-awarding schools look at far more than test scores, but the first cut seems to be based on test scores/high school record. (Not necessarily SAT II, though I don't really know.)</p>

<p>ellemenope, I would have to use duct tape and wire on my mouth to avoid saying I TOLD YOU SO in this situation. </p>

<p>You know, if she gets in where she wants to go, and with a good financial package, I've no doubt daughter will be happy to say I TOLD YOU SO.
The inequity of it all!</p>

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<p>WashDad, I most definitely was kidding. I thought the break in the tension was humorous. I really must learn how to do the little emoticons (is that what we call the little faces?) so it is clear when I THINK I am being facetious.</p>

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<p>This is so different from the way my family works that my advice might not be meaningful. </p>

<p>I would be just fine with the crew, the testing situation (neither of my kids took Math SAT II's) but I would sweetly ask a child in this situation to apply to some safeties, just for my sake. And s(he) would. If necessary, I would choose the schools. It's only clicks on common ap site, and it would give me peace of mind. My kids are good to me, and I think either one would be secretly relieved if I took this tack.</p>

<p>In fact, I did prod them into applying to some schools they might not have, just because I thought they needed more safeties. We were all very happy that they didn't need them, but the insurance was nice.</p>

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<p>I understand that no one wants their kid to fall flat on their face (no choices at all). But also, as many have said, you can't make the kid do what she will not do.</p>

<p>For me, being the parent means having a discussion where we discuss the parameters. If you do/don't do X, it may lead to Y. Know the possibilities, and then let it alone. She's a smart kid; she can hear if it's presented in a nonjudgmental way--not "you must do this" but "these are the logical consequences if you don't, accept that you may have to live with them, then make your choices." That's not abandoning the kid--it's giving her the tools to make a mature decision.</p>

<p>My S refused to take Latin 4, because of the awful teacher he'd have to have again. We had that conversation--I told him that three years of a language might be the sticking point, when 4 were recommended. He understood and was willing to take the risk. That's all I could do.</p>

<p>That's my idea of letting go, not shutting up, but laying out the situation very honestly and helpfully, and letting her decide. </p>

<p>At worst, she'll go to the state school, not the worse thing in the world. I honestly don't believe that the Merit Scholarships at a place like Washu or Vandy turn on an SAT 2 score. Plus, some of the schools she's looking at do not give Merit anyway, yet she's still considering them. It's a complicated picture we're being given here. </p>

<p>PS--despite my misgivings about his class choices and test-taking habits, S got into his first choice school. And if he hadn't, he'd have gone very happily to his second choice school, Umich, which does not require SAT 2's at all (maybe she should consider it) and does offer hefty merit scholarships (my 3 years of language, spotty SAT 2 son was offered one--just a thought.)</p>

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But a creditless crew role that any kid could do? When everyone else is either working on their essay, application, test, or their "huge" project for AP history? </p>

<p>Adm office will not know this "crew" thing she spent two weeks working every night. They will not know that no one else want to do this so she jumped in. All they will see is less prepared essay and lower test scores.

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<p>This creditless role might end up being the best thing on a resume that is filled with nothing but scholastic achievements. </p>

<p>Fwiw, if she could convincingly write about how her rebellious action meant doing what she did for ... herself and not for filling the blanks of a selective application, she'd have an award winning essay.</p>

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<p>DadII, so here it is, late Friday afternoon. I know you're probably overwhelmed with advice right now (after 5 pages of it in two days!), but I'm going to add my own, even if it echoes some of others:</p>

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<li><p>Let her take the test. You have no idea how well she'll do on it. No matter what score she gets, it will be a good lesson in responsibility and time management. (BTW, I know lots of kids who did well on SATIIs without prepping.) </p></li>
<li><p>Once a student meets the minimum requirements for test scores, the ECs start adding weight to the application. By dedicating a large part of her time to both the play and cross country, she's showing that she can handle both academics and activities -- exactly what top colleges look for, even for merit scholarships.</p></li>
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<p>I'm assuming that since most applications aren't due until December or January that she'll be able to put this experience on her resume to be included with her applications, so even in your eyes, it will have value. If she does interviews, she'll have something interesting to talk about.</p>

<p>My daughter was like yours -- dragging her feet about college -- until she had an epiphany during a college tour: college was not going to be like high school. My D had it in her mind that college would be like going to high school, only harder, and she had no interest in exploring her options beyond the obvious. As far as she was concerned, one college was the same as any other, except for the prestige factor. Once she realized the truth, her college list started forming to include her own interests and desires. Although this realization came too late to explore schools that would have been great for her, she did (fortunately!) end up at a top LAC that seems to fit her perfectly. Your daughter might be under the mistaken impression that college won't be enjoyable. She might not think that it matters to find a campus that fits her personality -- hence, the incomplete list. High school guidance counselors, especially in public schools that assign them too many students, are not in the best position to help on this front. Perhaps you and your wife can make an appointment to speak to the GC, and emphasize that your D needs financial safeties. Have the GC talk directly to the daughter without bringing you into it. Given your D's behavior, she may be more likely to listen to her GC than to you -- that's what teenagers do best. You might want to schedule a few more trips to colleges -- and let her take the tours by herself.</p>

<p>Good luck! It's never easy being a parent. My daughter and I look back on her senior fall as one of the most stressful we had to endure as a family because of the pressures of AP classes, a varsity sport, AND the college application process. This, too, shall pass . . .</p>

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<p>I agree with everything garland wrote as to the approach. Share what you know, and then let her decide and you'll have spelled out the ifs/thens situation. </p>

<p>I also agree with garland that this picture is complicated for us to understand because on the one hand she is applying to Cornell and wants to go (I don't hear you not supporting that school) but Cornell doesn't give merit aid but then you say if she gets into WashU (hard enough to do itself), she can't go if she doesn't get merit aid (do I have that right?). So, I don't quite get why Cornell is OK but not Wash U without merit aid and how important merit aid is in her quest. If merit aid is critical, she should be applying to more schools, including ones a step down where she would be at the top of the heap, not in the ballpark with other applicants. Have you spelled out to her this financial necessity or what is up with that? If merit aid is not essential, she still needs a balanced list. She should not apply to Vandy if she has no interest in the school. I don't care if the school is the best thing since sliced bread....if your kid doesn't like it, what's the point? Insist she find 8 schools she DOES like enough to attend in a range of "chances" level. That seems like a fair parameter and the choices are hers to make, not schools you like.</p>

<p>Lastly, in all the posts and threads I have read of yours, the emphasis in getting even better SAT scores beyond already good ones seems misguided. She already had good scores. It's the other things like crew or track that you may not value, that the colleges will. Perfect scores don't necessarily win the race.</p>

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<p>Dad II, please be proud of your D for her choice. She has decided to put her time and energy where it is NEEDED now rather than hoarding it for any potential competitive advantage. YAY Dad II's D! :)</p>

<p>With so many kids today obsessed about building their resumes and academic records so they can be most competitive in college admissions, I find your D's choice very refreshing.</p>

<p>Your D, who has already proven herself academically, is saying that there are other important things in life. She knew that the stage crew team really needed her. Nobody else was stepping up to the plate. She did.</p>

<p>Her decision is unlikely to make a MAJOR difference in her app and scholarship results. But it is a step in the development of her character that bodes well IMO.</p>

<p>(And perhaps it can be fodder for an essay or an interview.)</p>

<p>In any event, I am confident that your hairs will grow back eventually! ;)</p>

<p>Keep us posted!</p>

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<p>Dad II, I think your D's schedule is not anything over the top. You asked her if other top ten kids are on crew. Perhaps not crew, but I bet they are doing other time consuming activities. (Stage crew is a wonderful activity, but it's only for two weeks! What's the big deal? I can't really think of any other activity that has such a short time commitment.) It's hardly likely that they're all running home after school doing applications & essays. Every top ten type kid I know is out doing, experiencing, enjoying being a teen.</p>

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<p>Amen StickerShock. This is the only childhood they get.</p>

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@mathmom: Math IIC looks a bit better, as it's more advanced, and it actually has a somewhat more lenient grading curve most years. Typically a single careless mistake hurts you a LOT more on IC than it does on IIC, because the distribution of raw scores is more skewed.

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<p>You're right scores look better on Math2, percentiles look worse.</p>

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<p>^^^Never check the percentiles on Math2. When my son took it, 780 was 82nd percentile.</p>

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<p>LOL. I know. (Even 35+ years ago when I took Math2 that was true.) I'd forgotten though that you could get an 800 with a couple of mistakes, unlike the SAT1.</p>

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<p>DadII....</p>

<p>If you are willing....can you explain why your D even needs to take the SAT Math Subject Test? I'm trying to follow your threads but I admit, I can't keep all the posters' stories straight. She took the ACT, right? Most schools will let you submit the ACT in lieu of an SAT/SAT2 combination. I recall you indicating an ACT score in the ballpark of 34. I kinda remember you said she was going to submit the ACT as she (or you?) were not happy with her regular SAT scores, but she did very well on some other SAT Subject Tests. So, what I don't understand, is why she is taking this Math Subject Test because in order to submit it, she also has to submit her regular SAT scores (they see them all) and didn't you prefer her ACT score over her SAT score? I also recall your saying she was a very good student GPA-wise and rank-wise. So, it appears she has what most people would say are excellent stats already that put her in range for any selective school just no the numbers end of things. However, top colleges will have many students apply who have top stats and so this other stuff is what will make the difference (things like crew and track, for instance), not that one kid had a 780 and another had a 730. A kid with a 730 SAT on a subtest or a kid with a 34 on the ACT may look more attractive than a kid with 780 on subtests or a 35 ACT if the kid has all these other achievements that make him/her attractive to schools. My concern is that you appear to be overly concerned about negligible differences in test scores that are already in the upper ranges that are suitable for most colleges. I don't see what is riding on this test. Your D already scores in a high range....high ENOUGH for her chosen schools. Her energy is best put elsewhere....ECs, essays, a balanced list. I don't see what the fuss is about this math test really, but I may be missing something? Your standards seem to be near perfection and that is not required for admission to elite schools. Many students with perfect SATs and GPAs still get denied. Better have something else to offer up on the plate. Your D sounds wise as far as seeking interests like crew and track. When you say top ten students aren't doing these activities, I beg to differ. Elite colleges want students who are MORE than just stellar students with high test scores. Perfect scores are not enough to get in. Likewise, perfect scores are not necessary to get in.</p>