<p>@kmcmom13 – “Trust it to unfold and enjoy the ride”. What great advice for everyone. Brilliant!</p>
<p>Kmcmom is always brilliant :)</p>
<p>Not sure if the questions about handling the stress of conservatory were unkind. I took them as helpful. I know that, as a parent, Stress is a very relevant issue for many driven students. And many of us were essentially saying the same thing, if less directly.</p>
<p>Alex from NEC, I have to say that I am a little uncomfortable with an admissions person on the parents’ forum. It may be a little inhibiting for some. I cannot recall an admissions person on here in the several years I have been on the CC music forum, though perhaps they are “unmarked” posters. I am sure it is allowed, and you have had opportunities to correct misinformation, but still, this is a “parents forum” and a safe place to come without too much fear of exposure!</p>
<p>I thought it was a board for students and parents, but I’ve never checked out any official definition and am too lazy to do it on my phone. I have come across admissions reps elsewhere on cc. Speaking for myself alone, I welcome the info that admissions reps can provide and am grateful when they take the time to provide their inside perspective on the process and their particular schools. </p>
<p>CC does allow college reps, self-identified. There used to be an admissions rep from Bard who posted regularly but he tended to show up only when there were questions about Bard. </p>
<p>NEC’s “admissionrep” account with its golden winged logo is a little disconcerting when it flutters into the discussion, in my opinion, as this tends to be a parents’ board where we talk among ourselves about parenting issues. </p>
<p>The partyline response above is a little off, again IMO, because the OP’s issue wasn’t that she worried whether it’s necessary to win All-State seats for admissions to conservatories, but rather what these adjudications could mean in terms of her daughter’s chances for success. I think he was trying to be kind and reassuring.</p>
<p>Really, she was thinking aloud and needing reassurance/a reality check. I think it’s important for parents to remember that were not in a private space. Admissions reps do read CC. </p>
<p>I had the same reaction as StringPop, and not just because Alex liked my post! 
I don’t think this is a parents’ forum per se, even though it does seem to be dominated by parents, and I think input from a conservatory admissions person is incredibly helpful. Us parents can provide our perspectives, but Alex can speak with authority for how at least one top conservatory thinks about these questions. Also, we should assume that there are other admissions reps monitoring these boards, even if they’re not posting. I’m very happy to have Alex providing his thoughts when he feels he has something to add.</p>
<p>P.S., just saw @glassharmonica’s post. I do think that part of OP’s issue was worry about admissions to conservatories (“It was very upsetting to her as she said ‘if I can’t succeed here, how can I get into a good college/conservatory?’”) and I agree that Alex was trying to be kind and reassuring. My guess is that Alex would be willing to stop posting if we wanted him to stop, but I think that would be a loss to the forum, so I hope he continues to post when/as he thinks appropriate. We should take it as a reminder, however, that this is a public forum and we shouldn’t post things that we wouldn’t want shared publicly.</p>
<p>You’re getting great advice here. I’ll just add that-- your daughter is doing what she loves. She is going to grow immensely in the next few years, in all kinds of ways and certainly musically. Even if these competitions were more meaningful (and I agree that they aren’t), they wouldn’t matter. People who love and really work at what they’re doing can improve at an exponential rate in these years. She is one of the few lucky people on earth who really LOVE something and want to learn and grow with it. She deserves to be able to continue on this path. </p>
<p>@N8Ma was the admissions rep for Bard Conservatory, but he’s since moved on and is now teaching conducting at a university in Florida. He never guessed who I was on this board, to my surprise, until we met in person. And subsequently we became friends. I always like the input from the admissions folks but it does reinforce the need for anonymity when writing about specifics.</p>
<p>My take on NYSSMA and all state and all region and so forth is pretty much what Yogurt told Lone Star in Space Balls “Forget it, it means bupkus” (he was talking the ring he gave Lone Star, but similar concept:).</p>
<p>First of all, to be brutally honest, the assessments in All State/Region, etc are generally not to be confused with what people in conservatories and music schools will be looking for, the level of judging IMO, both from when I was involved (not auditioning, but rather as a volunteer when the auditioning was done in the school I went to) is not that high, and yes, I am pretty certain that it isn’t always so fair or blind as they claim. There are problems with accusations of parochialism even at high levels, there was a dustup at the Indiana this year on violin, so it isn’t limited to the All State and so forth, it comes with people wanting their kids to do well and so forth, but there also is truth to it in my experience, I know of cases where mysteriously kids from certain districts seem to get in or well placed, when it doesn’t seem to make sense, and I have been told by people involved in my home state unfair crap goes on (besides the fact that auditions are subjective, and a kid can be a whiz, play let’s say the violin incredibly, but doesn’t get in because he was taught old Russian style and most of the faculty is Belgian/Franco or whatever…</p>
<p>Look, if your daughter was someone who didn’t have a private teacher, was taught by their school music teacher as I was, didn’t practice, then yeah, it might mean something…but she already has demonstrated a level of committment to it that makes me think that isn’t the case. Not only will the NYSSMA or All state adjudications be looked at by conservatories, the judging there quite bluntly might make people at the conservatory say “What the Heck?”.NYSSMA and All State in many places are basically the preserve of good public school music students, it is a kind of reward for the kids who do halfway decently in public school music programs, and there is nothing wrong with it as such, it is an opportunity to meet kids, and have some fun, but the level of judging is not going to reflect much IMO. I know from experience that the top music kids generally don’t do All Statte/All region, because of the time involved and the relatively little benefit to themselves (some do it as a favor for their school music program, to give kudos to it and hopefully use that to save it from the axe), so it is even hard to say what your D is competing against. Want to know something? It may not be she was not good enough, it may be she was too good, there are competitions, and programs like All State, where if they hear the playing of a kid who is head and shoulders above the others, who obviously is on a different track, and deliberately not let them in. Why? In some cases, because they may feel the student would be bored or otherwise not get anything out of it, or maybe the feel the person must have great opportunities if they play like that, or maybe, just possibly, the panel hear her was full of the music teachers you don’t want judging a good student, often frustrated musicians who never made it, ended up as teachers to have a job, and are bitter people (for the record, not all music teachers are like this, but they exist, and aren’t all that rare).It is sad to say instead of enjoying a student who is playing brilliantly and loves the music, they can get jealous and decide to mark them down. I have seen up close and personal a judge at a competition mark my son’s performance down because they knew he went to a top level pre college program and got their nose bent out of joint (the reason I say this is the judge’s comments were way out of line with my son’s playing, didn’t tally with the other judge and had his private teacher saying "did you have someone else play for you or something…)…</p>
<p>I understand your daughter’s angst, but you and she have to realize that the process for All State and All Area and NYSSMA are a totally different world than the music world she is trying for, and basically to ignore it, as hard as that is. She needs to take the opinion of people who have actually dealt with kids serriously heading into music, whether ti is her own private teacher, youth orchestra conductor, because they tend to know more than a typical public music school band director (believe me on that, things our band director told us, 35 years ago, were way out of line with the reality of conservatories and music schools, even then, and I have heard from other parents things the public music school teachers say and it is pretty dismal often…), If she is really worried, take her to Eastman or Ithaca to a good teacher, and see what they say, or if you can bit the bullet (and afford the time and money), go to NYC and get an evaluation by a teacher at Juilliard or MSM or such (Eastman would be fine). If for anything, it is a way to know for certain you are being evaluated by someone who knows. Again, All State and NYSSMA and other programs are nice things to have, there are a lot of dedicated teachers who work the program, but there are a lot of reasons why it probably means nothing in terms of her real ability. Heck, have her audition for high level music summer programs, and even if it is likely she won’t/can’t go, you could see how she fares, at least that might be miore real…and even there, those auditions are subjective, so she could be fantastic, and simply not get into the program because there was someone better auditioning and they took one oboe.</p>
<p>You guys are all so great! While my daughter may be feeling a little stressed I think it is I that am feeling more stressed, realizing we’re getting closer! I’m repeating things in posts! I need to relax! Deep down I know both my daughter and I know NYSSMA isn’t “all that” but I think she was really upset because she knew she nailed that solo and heard parts of others playing and one student was even allowed to start over! It was precisely because she wasn’t exactly impressed with NYSSMA and that she knew how she had played that it got her upset. We’re both a little calmer and trying to look at the big picture. Things have been very busy around here! We will take all advice and read recommended books, perhaps get an evaluation at Eastman, look at summer programs and keep playing! Thank you to the people that sent me PM’s and I felt reassured by the NEC admissions rep. </p>
<p>I guess I should add my daughter is normally a rock and nothing phases her with her music. She’s never gotten this upset before. I guess you could say it showed a passion as she was yelling and angry (at home) but that has melted away. I put my faith in the fact that she’ll end up where she’s suppose to be if she continues to work hard. That’s not always easy for me! I think it’s also the age and she’s been competing with these same students for years. She probably shouldn’t have bothered. Her private teacher agrees with everything said on here about NYSSMA. </p>
<p>I didn’t take what anyone had to say negatively. I appreciate the honesty. I feel better! </p>
<p>To the person that asked, I saw the three scores because NYSSMA is an all-day festival and when I was there judging sheets were left in a place they shouldn’t have been, laid out on a table. And yes I looked only as I was walking by. Strange I wonder if somebody was trying to tell a few of us something? </p>
<p>Also, my daughters solo didn’t require piano accompaniment as most All-State solos do. I guess there isn’t one? Her private teacher said this was an excellent solo to show her abilities. Now that I think of it some judges were complaining they didn’t like unaccompanied pieces. It could have been something as simple as that. I don’t know. And I’m getting it that I shouldn’t care re:NYSSMA! </p>
<p>Lastly, I don’t want to be negative toward my daughters HS teacher. He’s very good. Not an oboe pro but encouraging, knowledgeable, caring and talented. But I don’t think he’s used to students in certain situations. And while students come and go, he’s stuck always dealing within the system. </p>
<p>Once again, thanks all! </p>
<p>@ redeye-
As you said, take a deep breath, there is an old expression a friend of mine used to use when someone on our team would get upset at criticism leveled at us (this was at work), he said “consider the source”, and usually he was right, it often was from someone who frankly either had no right to be saying anything, didn’t know their north end from the south end…those whose criticism mattered usually expressed it in a way to make it constructive.</p>
<p>This may ruffle some feathers, but having been around the world of things like All State in my own time, and part of public school music programs, you would hope that the people running these things are all fair minded, all have the best interests of the student and program in mind, but that isn’t always the case, and it isn’t all that rare that like other things in life, people have their own agenda. Some of the people in All State programs can have a chip on their shoulder a hundred miles wide and when they see kids who are advanced, think like “huh, another little hotshot, to **** with them, let some kid who is a good school player take that slot”, some of them are bitter people who resent seeing a kid with talent who might actually make it, others are very parochial and want kids from their schools or buddies to get in, and teachers in the program like All State are not above playing quid pro quo (you help me get this kid in, I’ll help you get that one in). Programs that are supposed to be completely blind , seem to be on the surface, but then ‘shockingly’ the same group of kids make it. </p>
<p>It is one of the reasons that more than a few talented music students stay the heck away from the whole school music scene, some of it is because they feel like the school music director gloms on the talented students and demands they do all these things, some of it because among high level music students and their parents there is a lot of stories of kids being treated like crap at all state and the like by teachers out to get them, resenting them, etc…</p>
<p>My advice is to be very careful about things like competitions, all state, all region, whatever, that a lot of what comes out of them may have little to nothing to do with how the student is really playing, or how good they are, and I would recommend relying on the private teachers, groups you know to be high level and assessments, both self comparing yourself against other high level students and what people with good reputations say about your playing. That isnt’ foolproof, for a lot of reasons, but compared to looking at what some high school music teachers group or whatever has to say, it is a lot closer to gospel IMO. </p>
<p>Redeye, I took up Tai Chi a few years ago You have a great attitude and glad that CC was helpful. Keep coming back!</p>
<p>In our state, selection for the All-State Band and Orchestra are divided into four regions. Meaning, at the audition, only 3 or 4 oboes were selected from each part of the state. Since our region produced higher-quality musicians than the rest of the state, on average, this system was a disadvantage for our musicians.</p>
<p>I listened to a number of the oboe players warming up, when my daughter auditioned for All-State when she was in 9th grade. While the oboe players from our region very good, half of the players from elsewhere in the state did not belong at an All state audition. Clearly those auditioning, mostly band directors, did not know what a good oboe player is expected to sound like in the US. That’s because none of them were oboe players. My daughter heard them too, and that was the last year she did All State.</p>
<p>Don’t place any weight in the All State system. Practicing auditions is a good exercise, as long as your daughter doesn’t place too much weight on the outcome. I agree with the others here. Focus on top or good youth symphonies, summer camps, and good private instruction.</p>
<p>@compmom, @glassharmonica, @SpiritManager, @jazzpianodad, @StringPop, et al.</p>
<p>Thank you for the feedback on my participation here. I was certainly not under the impression that weighing in from time to time would cause any discomfort. These boards appear to be a great place for information sharing, and I figured my perspective could help in certain conversations. I signed up as an official admissions rep to promote transparency, but the views I express are my own. </p>
<p>Perhaps a little more background on my experiences could help. I did my undergraduate studies in history and music at a university with a smaller music program, did a master’s in music performance at a university program, did a Graduate Diploma at NEC, then earned my doctorate in music education at a university program. I have experienced the admissions process four times for my own studies and have been through the cycle many more times in an admissions capacity. I have many thoughts on music education and its value in our society, and I enjoy the opportunity to share them. (And, I do qualify as a parent, although my little ones are still quite a few years away from the college admissions process!)</p>
<p>And, as jazzpianodad surmised, there are many admissions offices who monitor these boards even if they do not post (it is a great way to get a glimpse into how your programs and admissions processes are perceived). Rather than merely lurking, I would prefer to be able to contribute my voice. I will always try to do so respectfully and honestly.</p>
<p>Best,
Alex</p>
<p>@ alex- The fact that you are open and honest about being part of NEC is great, I think people posting on here have to realize that other schools admissions departments do read these boards, this is the internet and all you need to get an account is an email address, so it isn’t like this is up close and personal necessarily. I know for a fact several of the big time music programs admissions offices check out CC, because I have heard them talk about some of the BS they have heard on here and so forth. It is why I recommend being careful about specifics on here (and also taking anything posted with more than a few grains of salt, including the stuff I post about), because people don’t know, so having someone identified as being from a certain school should not really cause any issues. </p>
<p>I have definitely valued your input, Alex.</p>
<p>I have always enjoyed the perspectives of the professionals that occasionally post here. Not only admission folks but others such as teachers, coaches, even those who participate in judging. It is important to maintain as much annonymity as possible although with some programs being so small it can be easy for an occasional “outing” to occur. So good sense in posting is important. </p>
<p>I, too, appreciate the input from admission reps on these boards–I think it provides a valuable perspective into the process from the other side. I do respect those admissions reps that have identified themselves in their posts, rather than just lurking or posting anonymously. We can learn a lot from them. I have always been mindful of the fact that these boards could and would be read by admissions offices, parents, students, any number of and all sorts of people–it’s a public place. For students and parents, taking care to maintain anonymity in online forums is just good common sense.</p>
<p>I think that the very factors – erratic judging and irrelevant outcomes – that make these kinds of auditions questionable for evaluating the future potential of a young musician also make them very helpful as learning experiences. Learning to cope with nonsensical audition results and chair placements when these things don’t really matter will be helpful down the road when the results do matter. And I don’t in any way mean to be critical of the original poster or her daughter. I’m speaking generally about the benefits… Nothing wrong with taking a break from the madness!</p>
<p>So many things can go wrong in an audition, I personally think it’s great for a kid to have the chance to let that happen in auditions with little meaning.</p>
<p>My daughter (7th grade, oboe) just did her County Honors and All-State auditions (junior, because of her age). Regardless of outcome, she made a few procedural mistakes that I’d rather she made and learned from now than down the road. At the county level, she was asked to play a chromatic scale in a screened audition, and asked how many octaves. The proctor blanched, but my daughter held it together and played well – and walked out smiling. At the state level, she opened her music to the begining of one of the excerpts, then realized there was only one measure on the first page and should have opened to the next page. Her teacher had her memorize the piece, so this was not a huge problem for her, but I think that the “oh no” feeling she experienced in both situations will be a more powerful teacher than all the nagging in the world. Let’s hope that next time she goes in to auditions with slightly better game plans (like play as many octaves as she can play well – which is pretty limited to two on the oboe – and photocopy as needed to avoid page turns.) Learning the ins and outs of preparation and discipline are what I see as the real value of taking these auditions, regardless of where this whole music thing leads.</p>
<p>There is a big difference between the regional and state level of these competitions. The regional is weird, wild, unpredictable and has almost nothing to do with whether a student can really play. All sorts of bizarre, Machiavellian drama is going on behind the scenes - at least in our state,and I wouldn’t put too much stock in any of it. One year the returning first chair in state didn’t even chair high enough in the regional to go to state. Huh? One year my kid was third stand in regional and the first two stands were so incompetent that the conductor just ignored them and gave direction to the kids in the third stand and behind. Those first two stands at the regional ended up in the last two stands at state and while my kid was first stand. The regionals are screwy. </p>
<p>At the state level the chairing seemed pretty accurate. I don’t think the colleges put any stock in where a student sat at state, mainly because state happens after school auditions and for other reasons. If you are going to go with the school/state competition thing, do it with a sense of humor and accept the randomness of it all. It is good prep for auditioning for music schools. Having to handle the state auditions while preparing music school auditions and then say, preparing for a concerto competition the same month seemed crazy but it was a realistic glimpse of the future. Students have to be able to handle multiple auditions/juries at the same time and state etc. proved to be good preparation. Her first year at a conservatory our kid has to prepare five pieces for several different situations ( school juries, summer camp admissions, scholarships ) all at the same time and having done the regional/state programs back in high school gave her the confidence that she could do it.</p>
<p>One overlooked element is that if your high school has supported your child in the school orchestra, it’s nice to give back to them a little by going down to state. Our kid’s high school conductor was very appreciative to have a student place so high in the section for use in future years as an example to other kids as to what could be achieved. We all felt good about it. </p>
NYSSMA drives me crazy. Most recently, my daughter played an absolutely beautiful solo, level six, on violin. Her “buddies” also played and did well. Two of them got 100s, and for one of them it was clearly because of her age vis a vis the difficulty of her piece (fair play to her - very difficult piece - but she didn’t play it at the “100” level). The other girl also got a 100 - and probably should have. My daughter should have gotten a 100 (and has in the past), and didn’t (she got a 99) because (direct quote) “you should have used a photo copy so that you wouldn’t have to stop and turn the page - this broke the flow of the piece”. Her friend that played the same piece, and got a 100 but had a different judge - said it was ridiculous - as she had probably taken 20 seconds to turn the page. AND photocopies are expressly forbidden in NYSSMA. Her teacher later said - “This is why I hate NYSSMA” - the judges are all over the place. You have to just go in and say, ‘I’m going to take the comments I get, read them and sift through to find the most helpful ones for me personally’, and forget the rest. But do NOT take this as any kind of assessment on what your daughter can achieve. She sounds fabulous, and what the others have said about taking a step back and just breathing is really right. Get back to her personal improvement - not competition with others. She will be great if this is what she truly wants to do - plus very soon she will be with much more impartial people (hopefully) at the college level. I understand, though, when you see your child not being given a very fair shake - it’s painful.