I don't mean to start anything but . . .

<p>Honesty, do you really believe that something this big could be held under wraps? </p>

<p>If Clinton couldn't keep his affair under wraps, I doubt something this big that involved actuals death could be.</p>

<p>I did visit the site, but I stopped reading it. It's because I have no idea of the random facts, and the site did post quite a bit, are true or not. I'm not sure if that's an actual picture, or a photoshopped one. Therefore, I'm basing on my own common sense that those who make those sites have no validty. If they did, there would have been something major leak out already. </p>

<p>This is almost as absurd as the topic that said God was sending Hurricanes at the United States. </p>

<p>I hate to take on a defensive role, but people of all ages would mock this with ridicule. I'm rereading my post, and to be honest, I don't get how you even get maturity in that factor.</p>

<p>If you belive Anti-Govt, NWO, Prapaganda like the stuff from Alex jones on Infowars.com and Prisonplanet.</p>

<p>You are honestly crazy.</p>

<p>Whatever. I just wanted to see if people had anything sensible to say to refute the actual evidence. I guess not. Just name-callers. I don't call names and I don't say people are crazy. I'm presenting facts and documents, take em or leave em. Those are undoctored. Even if you watch the official videos they are ridiculous. (A building shouldn't fall that fast.) Why would George W Bush say he watched the first building fall when there is no official footage of it being broadcast (he also said he watched it on the television, making it even worse)? Not only once did he say he saw it simultaneous to the crash, he repeated it. That's just bad. Tell what you have to say about that? Why would Bush be watching a show we can even view? How does he have footage when there is only one known video (which has been doctored for the 9/11 tape btw)? Sorry that is among the numerous questions that have no answers.</p>

<p>In regards to Tufts, I didn't say anything in caps like "FAKE FAKE FAKE" for instance. That sounds a bit like a twelve-yr-old. Especially if you like "mocking." Also the only ones who knew about it were high up. Clinton was simply partisan-fighting. This goes far deeper and back through parties. There are no bounds anymore. (This is coming from a hardcore Liberal too.)</p>

<p>P.S. And for everyone's information, I'm a rational guy. I don't just believe what I'm told, I even looked up refuters of those sites and they didnt stack up. All I asked for in this post was for anybody with info that would refute claims on those sites. Doesn't anyone here out of all the smart people have anything? Guess not.</p>

<p>Not a bunch of people calling me crazy. Could you just say you don't agree and stop calling me crazy. It's just what I believe now and I'm not crazy for believing if I have no evidence to disprove me.</p>

<p>I agree. As of now, no one has presented evidence to the contrary. Also, there is no irrationality in questioning the validity of the government's truthfulness, or even the media's for that matter. </p>

<p>Common Sense? What is that? Always going with the majority of thought? Always following the government? Always believing what you think is "right?"</p>

<p>Honestly... if you believe this conspiracy, you aren't rational.</p>

<p>Why would the Republicans, let alone DEMOCRATS let the President kill innocent people? Don't you think, if this was true, that the Democrats would be all over Bush? Don't you think?</p>

<p>You cannot equate this to FDR. Some people think FDR knew about Pearl Harbor, but let it happen anyway. That is completely different than having the military BOMB ALL THE SHIPS AT PEARL HARBOR.</p>

<p>Well, let me just put this out there:</p>

<p>if you didn't already know, the websites only support one side of the story. I didn't read every single word, but from what I glanced at, that was the impression I got.</p>

<p>How are we supposed to support the opposing viewpoint that way? We can't just set up our own investigation team and do it. What do you expect us to say? I'm certain that evidence is completely true, but how do I know that some if not all of it is taken out of context? How do I know that some of those questions were actually answered, but they still present them in order to make them look rhetorical?</p>

<p>Science doesn't explain everything (at least not yet). Only God knows what happened. I can't remember the last time a Boeing 757 crashed into the Pentagon. Science could try to explain that the explosion could have been dealt by a missle, but there are so many factors that can influence it.</p>

<p>As for the cable wires, I'm certain that the government, etc. is not that sloppy when it comes to cover-ups. Are you serious? An operation like this would cost literally millions if not billions, and the opposing argument is basing their point on a couple of cable wires.. What comes to mind is the "Moon-land hoax".</p>

<p>Many radicals looked at the first photos on the moon, and what they saw was a US flag that appeared to be "waving". It was easily explained that it was the cause of the pull and tug of the shaft. Others have said that you cannot see any stars.. it was because the flash from the cameras would dim them out.</p>

<p>As for the civilians who claimed to have seen it.. I'm certain none of them have seen a Boeing 757 just about to hit the Pentagon at top, top speeds (~500 I believe?). When you're in a situation where a huge plane is mere meters from you, you aren't going to look at it and wonder, "was that a Boeing 757?" I'm sure you'd be running, and even if you were away from a safe distance.. chances are, you wouldn't have gotten a very clear view of it. Just my $0.02. I hope this helps..</p>

<p>I know it's different and that is why I think it is important. And as I said this bombing is related to Oklahoma City so don't think the democrats would be quick to accuse the president, if they even know. And I very well believe I am rational.</p>

<p>I also believe that regardless of whatever that Bush wanted to start the war for oil (err terrorism) at all and any costs necessary. I believe that I would rather rely on the integrity of building construction rather than believe a measly tank of gas caused a building of that proportion to fall (mightily perfectly I might add). I believe that FEMA shouldn't have been in NYC the day before the attacks (even tho they were). I believe that people heard a disjolting bang bang bang in well timed sucession before the fall. I believe that the metal under the building shouldn't still be melted until the rubble after a week or two. I believe that airport security is tighter than letting 19 crackpots (also hung-over, btw) fly with amazing precision into both towers and the Pentagon. I believe that wasn't a 767 flying into the Pentagon. C'mon at least watch the flash video. That will entertain and inform you (it's got music from Fight Club in it). I believe that cells phones weren't powerful enough to have multiple ones go through in an airplane. I believe there are way too many questions about 9/11 to let it go and believe the gov't whole-heartedly (which lied to us anyways about the WMDs). I believe that the numbers dead in our own country is far less than the numbers of innocent Iraqis we've killed overseas. Why do you think other countries hate us? Why do you think other countries think of us as stupid, ignorant Americans? These are rational beliefs and questions, don't you think? I will believe this information until someone points out evidence to the contrary.</p>

<p>You should try reading the mass amounts of evidence bet you haven't even started b/c you don't want to. It is a lot more than just this one site, including official documents, undoctored official photos, and the amazing PentaLawn. I just believe the site I linked to compiles it very nicely. I hardly doubt any people have clicked on one of my 3 links let alone read the stories so why should I be the irrational one?</p>

<p>Calling out after not reading much evidence to the contrary is irrational. Believing something just b/c it's the gov't telling you it's true, is irrational. (maybe that's just an engineers thinking, always challenging previous beliefs, especially after compiling evidence) Calling someone irrational you haven't even met is irrational. It's alright tho. I know I am not attacking anyone here. I didn't look for 9/11 conspiracies to post. I truly believed the gov't story (for the most part, I still thought the set-up was a bit too perfect). I came across it and after a good amount of additional research came to my own conclusion. Has anyone else here done that?</p>

<p>I came to state my beliefs and no one wants to hear it or even dispel it. But after 3 requests for the opposite I am still called names. Fine. Thanks for the grown-up conversation CC community (except a few *green).</p>

<p>Btw I believe we landed on the moon for the record. I do believe that. I don't expect any of you to have research teams but if any one was informed (obviously not, save KRabble) then they could direct me to sites pointing out the contrary to these. I have looked and found none.</p>

<p>I don't necesarily believe the conspiracy theories, but the people who just resort to name calling against everyone who tries to think for themselves are a bit pathetic.</p>

<p>As for the conspiracy theories, I'm curious of what happened to the Twin Towers.. months ago, I saw pictures of the planes crashing into them, but there had been flashes right under a plane that was suspected to be a missle launching. I can't find the website now, but I'm curious of whether anyone else has heard of this or can find a link on this claim. Anyway, I don't believe an engineer, or anyone who really knows what he's talking about, confirmed whether it was actually a blasted missle or not.</p>

<p>I can understand why other countries, especially those in the Middle East-- namely Iraq, find the US to be terrorists, with all the innocent killings and whatnot. However, I'm sure some or maybe a good portion of some of those innocent civilians killed in Iraq were done because they had to. I'm guessing only the actual soldiers would know what happened. The invasion in Iraq emancipated many nonetheless. Though it was not absolutely necessary, all of what happen(ed) almost seems worth it when you see (and hear) of Iraqis overjoyed with the incoming of US soldiers. Was it completely necessary? Probably not because there are suppressed people all over the world who need help too.</p>

<p>Yeah true but you should try and read the weapons that were using against them. And how many supply commands turned out to be synagogues and other normal places. Here's another nice summary that shouldn't compromise anyone's intelligence and is much shorter.
<a href="http://serendipity.ptpi.net/wot/operation_pearl.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://serendipity.ptpi.net/wot/operation_pearl.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I know 9/11 is hard to believe: <a href="http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/refusing_the_9_11_evidence.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/refusing_the_9_11_evidence.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Last post for the night with a quote:
"Here [Internet forums] is where a pack mentality finds its home. Whenever an article or news item questioning the official account of 9/11 is presented for discussion, the responses inevitably fall into one of only two groups. In the first group are those who post comments adding their own information or asking for more details or further verification.</p>

<p>The second group inevitably fires a predictable stream of insults. Anyone who challenges the official version of 9/11 is a crackpot or a conspiracy theorist. The answers drip with sarcasm about UFO’s or Bigfoot, and often bring up some historic “atrocity” committed under the aegis of a Democratic administration, usually that of Bill Clinton. In some collective application of skewed logic, they regularly infer that Clinton’s involvement in Bosnia is somehow related to a discussion of 9/11.</p>

<p>They never, ever, respond to the evidence itself. They never, ever have an explanation or a rationale for the unexplained and highly suspicious inconsistencies in the Kean report. They would rather live with the lies than take the most cursory look at the facts."</p>

<p><a href="http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_plane_evidence.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_plane_evidence.html&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=1&c=y%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=1&c=y&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>They may be a bit long but interesting reads. May help you answer a few questions.</p>

<p>the internet is where pack mentality finds its home
that statement is true </p>

<p>however, the pack is a bunch of brainless students putting forward absurd conspiracy theory sites. people are not, as you think, brainwashed by "them" into believing everything "they" say. people just aren't as naive as you</p>

<p>there you have it</p>

<p>I never said anyone was brainwashed. However there is only one putting forth conspiracy sites. Oh right that's me. I don't see any pack coming to my defense. It's alright call me naive.</p>

<p>Thanks KRabble again but my site found Popular Mechanics and already dismissed many of their claims. But the pentagon one is one I believe the least already. The pilot theyre claiming did the crash of a lifetime could barely fly. And why were the videos of tapes that captured the plane well confiscated? Why is that one the only video? And there should be way more wreckage for a plane that huge. Also where are the bodies? How was a plane that was almost completely vaporized with no huge wreckage left behind able to leave DNA for every single passenger? Why wasnt this the case in NYC. All that survived the complete vaporization there were the passports of the terrorists. Also the hole in the building shouldn't match the one in the plane. Look at the hole in WTC towers, they were much bigger than the plane. An explosion that destroyed the plane completely as it did should have made a bigger hole.</p>

<p>Thanks again KRabble for finding what I couldn't. Those are just some of my new questions now but maybe the ones about the plane have answers. Thanks for the Pentagon site tho. I would like to see if my site finds that and what they say. It has convinced me that maybe it could have been the same plane.</p>

<p>

DITTO!!</p>

<p>And I also think people should be more open to ideas and stop being so ignorant. Think outside the box. I find it really annoying when some people say (or imply) : "NOPE MY THEORY IS 120% CORRECT. I'M RIGHT. YOU'RE WRONG. THE END" Add some bad names like 'loony' (or whatever else I read here) and you get those annoying ignorant people.</p>

<p>And to contribute to this conspiracy talk, I still don't understand the 'theory' but if the claims are not proved wrong, they can't be incorrect ..right?</p>

<p>Why should anybody think they could be wrong? if I read and base my opinion off somthing, I know that I am correct and nothing you say will change that.</p>

<p>By me taking into consideration, of what you say, just makes my ideas and statements weaker.</p>

<p>That is how debating works</p>

<p>First off, this is a hilarious sentence:</p>

<p>"Yeah true but you should try and read the weapons that were using against them. And how many supply commands turned out to be synagogues and other normal places."</p>

<p>The fact that the poster is placing synagogues in a predominantly Muslim country known for oppressing Jews shows the general lack of real understanding of the situations at hand.</p>

<p>Now to deal with the so-called "issues" of the 9/11 crashes.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Why is there not a lot of wreckage left? Well, let's think about it kids. First off, think about some PHYSICS and CHEMISTRY. Those planes were full of fuel that burns really really hot. You know what happens to wreckage when it gets really really hot? It melts!</p></li>
<li><p>
[quote]
How was a plane that was almost completely vaporized with no huge wreckage left behind able to leave DNA for every single passenger? Why wasnt this the case in NYC. All that survived the complete vaporization there were the passports of the terrorists.

[/quote]
</p></li>
</ol>

<p>What the hell are you talking about? They identified the passengers by iteneraries and purchase logs, dolt.</p>

<ol>
<li> Why was the Pentagon affected differently? Well, because the plane hit the ground at a different speed, and it didn't hit the Pentagon dead-on like the planes in NYC hit the trade towers. It struck the ground a bit first, and then sort of collided afterwards with the building.</li>
</ol>

<p>Now for this gem:</p>

<p>
[quote]
I also believe that regardless of whatever that Bush wanted to start the war for oil (err terrorism) at all and any costs necessary. I believe that I would rather rely on the integrity of building construction rather than believe a measly tank of gas caused a building of that proportion to fall (mightily perfectly I might add). I believe that FEMA shouldn't have been in NYC the day before the attacks (even tho they were). I believe that people heard a disjolting bang bang bang in well timed sucession before the fall. I believe that the metal under the building shouldn't still be melted until the rubble after a week or two. I believe that airport security is tighter than letting 19 crackpots (also hung-over, btw) fly with amazing precision into both towers and the Pentagon. I believe that wasn't a 767 flying into the Pentagon. C'mon at least watch the flash video. That will entertain and inform you (it's got music from Fight Club in it). I believe that cells phones weren't powerful enough to have multiple ones go through in an airplane. I believe there are way too many questions about 9/11 to let it go and believe the gov't whole-heartedly (which lied to us anyways about the WMDs). I believe that the numbers dead in our own country is far less than the numbers of innocent Iraqis we've killed overseas. Why do you think other countries hate us? Why do you think other countries think of us as stupid, ignorant Americans? These are rational beliefs and questions, don't you think? I will believe this information until someone points out evidence to the contrary.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Let me keep at it, point by point...</p>

<p>** I believe that I would rather rely on the integrity of building construction rather than believe a measly tank of gas caused a building of that proportion to fall (mightily perfectly I might add).**</p>

<p>I'd rather rely on the fact that a Boeing 757-200, carrying almost 44,000 liters of fuel, is going to burn VERY hot. I know that physics and chemistry are awfully dull subjects, but listen up. Yes, the buildings were designed to take the impact of a 707 airliner, but they weren't designed to be able to take a fire buring that hot. When the planes hit the buildings they removed a lot of the external fireproofing that otherwise would have protected the steel. The upper floors began to fall, and that started a chain reaction downwards. Basically, "the buckling of the horizontal steel supports separated them from the vertical supports. The horizontal steel floors were supported by trusses which were inadequately fireproofed and hence the steel supports softened when exposed to fire and failed. This failure caused the floor to fall downwards. When a floor failed completely, this set off a chain reaction where the floor fell, sheared away the floor below it, and then the combined mass fails even more quickly. This process was considerably slower than the terminal velocity of the rubble alone, but faster than the terminal velocity of relatively small objects that people are generally familiar with, which have much higher surface area to volume ratios, and are generally less dense."</p>

<p>And after all, who's to say that the towers were well-designed and/or built?</p>

<p>I believe that FEMA shouldn't have been in NYC the day before the attacks (even tho they were).</p>

<p>This is like those people who send out chain letters because John Adams and Thomas Jefferson both died on July 4. OOHHHH CREEPY!!! Instead, FEMA should have been conducting studies in Nevada, for fear of attacks on Las Vegas.</p>

<p>I believe that the metal under the building shouldn't still be melted until the rubble after a week or two.</p>

<p>You ever notice how the insides of a pot with a top on stay warm for long periods of time? Insulation, anyone?</p>

<p>I believe that airport security is tighter than letting 19 crackpots (also hung-over, btw) fly with amazing precision into both towers and the Pentagon.</p>

<p>Sorry, but you obviously never flew before Sept. 11th. No, scratch that, you've never been on an airplane. It's still frighteningly easy to take otherwise dangerous things on a plane. That, and how precise do you have to be when flying a mechanical beast that practically guides itself? I mean, they didn't have to land the goddamn things...</p>

<p>I believe that wasn't a 767 flying into the Pentagon.</p>

<p>Right, because a missile is so much more logical a conclusion. And after all, the government can make hundreds of passengers just dissappear without a trace. The same government that couldn't cover up the Bay of Pigs, Iran-Contra, and the affairs of various elected officials managed to stage a huge conspiracy. Makes lots of sense. </p>

<p>I believe that cells phones weren't powerful enough to have multiple ones go through in an airplane.</p>

<p>How do you know? Have you ever actually turned one on while on a plane? Neither have I. </p>

<p>I believe there are way too many questions about 9/11 to let it go and believe the gov't whole-heartedly (which lied to us anyways about the WMDs).</p>

<p>I believe in adhering to the all-powerful Occam's Razor and going with the simplest answer. And for the record, it wasn't "the government" that lied to us, it was a small portion of the executive branch that used crappy intelligence. The rest of the government just went along and worried about reelection. What, you think Diane Feinsten of CA actually was in concert with the Bush Administration? You are kookier than I thought...</p>

<p>I believe that the numbers dead in our own country is far less than the numbers of innocent Iraqis we've killed overseas. Why do you think other countries hate us? Why do you think other countries think of us as stupid, ignorant Americans? These are rational beliefs and questions, don't you think? I will believe this information until someone points out evidence to the contrary.</p>

<p>Hmmm, for once you said something remotely reasonable. Yes, more innocent Iraqis died than Americans in 9/11. And, since you obviously just buy anything the far far leftist contingent says, no, most people don't think we're stupid. Just indolent and arrogant. Try traveling, Sr. Poopmeister. </p>

<p>You guys set up these barrels, and put fish in them, and don't expect me to shoot them? Give me a break.</p>

<p>Thinsg like this</p>

<p><a href="http://slackdaddy.org/flash/pentagon.swf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://slackdaddy.org/flash/pentagon.swf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>are stupid, Because in the 1st frame under the title "Shorthly After impact" You can actually see debris right in the frame from the Plane with colors matching that of a commercial airliner.</p>

<p>This Propaganda is Horrible, you democrats love Lies and Live off of them.</p>

<p>Woah, wait a sec there Llamadingdong. I don't think that this nutjob in any way is a fair representation of Democrats at large. I'm sure that 99.9% of Democrats are fully in concert with the rest of the nation.</p>

<p>And let's be fair here, the Republican portion of our nation is just as likely to be taken in by polarizing propaganda when it appeals to their senses. Look at how it galvanized the vote in California...</p>